Hospital Horror Stories?

ps. don’t be pained by the Chinuch system.

I was raised by the “real world” until I was 39.

I certainly don’t think I was disrespectful.

I didn’t say you were.

I think if you actually understood what Feivel said, you might actually agree with him. I certainly hope so.

Syag

“If society puts value on materialism”

This isnt about materialsim. The money I refrence is not money that will be spent on a “halachic dinner” There is a certain amount of money dedicated to healthcare. That can be spent in limited number of ways.

Arguing that the money is better spent on young people, smart people, cancer research, or whatever as opposed to comatose people isnt materialistic. It may be wrong but it isnt inherently evil nor based on “Dark and evil places”

Keep in mind halacha does the same thing though we define “productive” veeeeeeeeery differntly than society at large. Many poskim hold, given limited resources Talmidei Chachamim go first. sadly this came up with visas to leave Europe in the late 30’s early 40’s. Other poskim have other ways of determining who goes first. But these decisions are very real. And that Society doesnt value talmidei Chachamim like we do, and instead gives preference to “productivity” in other ways, is not evil nor materialsitic.

“This nurse, many years ago, would have been regretful and pained to make such a decision.”

how do you know she wasnt pained? I dont know the specifics of your father’s condition and want to avoid specifics.

Also I’m sorry I didnt mention this earlier, but I’m sorry you had to go through that. Having loved ones in an ICU is never pleasant (and that nurse sounds like only made things worse.), and I hope he had a refuah sheleima, and if not may he be a meilitz yosher for you and your family. He is lucky to have had a caring son with him in the ICU, sadly many are not that lucky.

“Has money really altered the value of life as you say? Or has it just changed the need for the different decisions?”

the latter. Though it isnt just money. There is a staffing shortage a bed shortage. A comatose patient in an ICU is litteraly taking a bed that can go to somebody else. I am not saying “somebody else who needs it more” but without the Torah as a guide (and even in select cases with it) it is a bed that can better serve somebody else.

“It may be “right” in the medical world, but it is not “right” in Torah.”

Again, I have said that repeatedly. I am not saying giving blood to young instead of old is right,just that even if wrong it is not coming from a “dark evil” place.

“You say noone is killing anyone? Absolutely false. Nobody argues that people are being killed”

I didnt mean noone. Obviously there are exceptions, but those are exceptions and I am not referring to them.

Feivel

Thank you for that. IT explains a lot and I feel much better.

I also apologize if my tone was too harsh earlier. While I do know that the ideas you express “are not only incorrect, but they are the opposite of the truth, highly repugnant, and dangerous” it is limited to your ideas and not you personally. Thank you for your understanding

Thank you so, so much for your words regarding my dad. No, he did not make it. Unfortuantely I have not yet had any family go in to the hospital and actually come out. Even those who should have, but that is really a different discussion. And my views are really NOT coming from my personal experiences with family as much as from work and professional experiences. That nurse I mentioned was very kind and not at all an exception to the rule.

I tried to bring a couple parallels to illustrate my point (such as valuing money) but you seemed to think I was referring to it in context of this topic, which I wasn’t. In person it may be possible for me to untangle it all but I am not good at doing it in two dimension (obviously).

You are very fortunate to be living in a world where you think my killing statement is an exception. I am not surprised to hear that not all healthcare systems resemble Illinois systems but it is honestly not exception by any standards.

As I don’t feel I can productively state my meaning any better or differently I will call a draw, I guess. My only remaining statement would be –

it is not possible to say this

A comatose patient in an ICU is literaly taking a bed that can go to somebody else.

and believe that you have integrated Hashem’s views and values into your inner self and are allowing them to dictate your prejudices and judgements. What you DO will depend on the medical ethic journals, what you BELIEVE should be based in Torah and truth. That comment is not.

Syag: I’m confused. What’s wrong with that statement? I know why we, as Frum Jews, don’t care about that fact. But the fact is true and if you don’t have the basic Halachic principles that we do, why is it immoral to remove the person in the permanent vegetative state to make room for someone who can get better?

Syag

I am not sure why you have a problem with “A comatose patient in an ICU is literaly taking a bed that can go to somebody else.”

I’m guesing it is along the line of what you said earlier “will be believing full well that if Hashem wants that man to live, he will live without it”

This leads to an off topic classic hishtadlus question.

Should a person who has chest pain go to the hospital or stay home and have belief in Hashem “that if Hashem wants that man to live, he will live without it” ?

Should he go to a hospital with percuateus corinary intervention available or have belief in Hashem “that if Hashem wants that man to live, he will live without it” ?

A hospital with PCI but not a CCU or have belief in Hashem “that if Hashem wants that man to live, he will live without it” ?

etc etc etc

The “best hospital” available or any “doc in the box”

I am not mocking, these are classic hishtadlus questions and I dont know neccesarily where the line is drawn.

Most poskim I beleive would say to go to the best hospital available. If a hospital had a full ICU and the patient would not get as good care. I am guessing that most (all?) poskim would say to avoid that hospital even though that would be contradicting “” believing full well that if Hashem wants that man to live, he will live without it””

These questions are well above my paygrade, and I am not qualified to address them.

Joseph

It is clear from your post that you have not read what I am saying.

“The comatose patient can die without the bed. How is that “a bed that can better serve somebody else”?

You are saying that the comatose patient’s life is less valuable than the non-comatose patient.”

i am not saying that, as I have repeatedly stressed. All I am saying is that it is not evil to say that.

There are times where we assign “value” to one life over another. The idea that all lives are equal is a cute idea and a nice one for people not invloved but does not fit reality.

Here are a few halchic determinats that perhaps you are not aware of.

needless to say this is far from halacha lemaseh, I am just providing you with sources so that you realize the problem I raise are real, and people arent automaticly “Evil” if they reach different conclusions than us.

BM 62a regarding one flask for two people “chayecha kodem” (though it is a machlokes)

The mishna in horias says a “man comes before a woman” and Kohen before levi before yisroel” “a yisroel before a mamzer” and a talmid chacham before all etc… Granted that is regarding tzedaka but some poskim use that for triage in halacha.

Poskim understand these halachas in different ways.

for example the Netziv in haemek sheilah understands the sugya in B”M to mean that chayeh olam trumps chayeh shah (even for two people) which could mean that the comatose patient who is “taking up a bed” in the ICU (assuming he is a chayeh shah, which is not hard to imagine) should in fact be transferred out to “better serve somebody else” who is a chayeh olam. there are other achronim who learn the sugya this way. So be very careful before you discard it as “modern Western thought corrupt your values away from Torah values.”

R’ Yakav Emden in YD says explicitly that a healthy young person comes before a sick old person.

Not all poskim learn this way, it is a very complicated sugya

And please please dont think I am paskening one way or another ch”v. I said this several times, but it is still somehow getting lost.

All I am saying is this: Triage is a complicated issue. There are not enough resources (staff, beds and yes money) to help everybody.

Halacha guides us in the correct decision, sometimes for people not versed in these issues, the halachas are surprising and there are often machlokisim involved like in all areas of halacha.

For people who come to conclusions that are different than halacha (not me for the umpteenth time) it isnt because they come from a dark evil place.

p.s. please dont get caught up on the specifics of the halachas above. In addition to it being a complicated sugya with literally life-death consequences, each case has subtle differences that can and will change the halacha. But the ideas behind the shitas above are at least theoretically in some cases applicable, at least according to those who hold those shitas.

I’d be happy to provide more mareh mekomos if youd like. Some of these are based on an article in Hakira, RJJ or I forget where i’ll try to dig it up if anybody is interested.

Joseph

“Arguing to save the lives of young people before older people, most certainly is inherently evil and based on dark and evil impulses.”

Take it easy, you are on very thin ice. There are shitas that way. there are shitas that put Talmid chacham before am haaretz (as mentioned earlier this came up in a very real way when getting people out of pre-war Europe), someone who will do mitzvas before someone who wont or wont do as many (eg men over women).

So please be very very careful how you phrase things.

It isnt “evil” if instead of being machshiv what we view as the ultimate contribution to society namely, Torah and mitzvos, they view “productivity” in other ways

Sam – I have to say that whatever shock ubiquitin expressed over feivel’s comments, I am feeling that regarding yours. I am sad and speechless to hear those thoughts rumbling around in a head so filled with Torah learning.

Sam and Ubiqutin, the reason you are so horribly wrong on this is because we are NOT discussing one rope and two people drowning, or one unit of blood and two injured patients.

We are talking about a wholesale discounting of human life which has permeated the medical establishment.

The fact that you can equate the terms in parentheses with the actual case shows how you’ve erred.

This is aside from the fact that this is only part of it.

ubiquitin – okay, so we seem to be standing together at this spot. Let me move it forward for a second. I am completely with you that those choices need to be made. That questions and distinctions need to be considered etc. I will pick an obviously made up scenerio so it can be free of bias for us both.

Let’s just say that we set a medical ethics guideline that we tend to go for those who don’t wear glasses as the more valued because of their contributions to society/religion/politics etc. When faced with two choices, we choose the one without glasses. knowing how we operate as humans, the more we are forced to chose the person without glasses, the more we develop a slight tinge of bias toward them. Over time, having to constantly choose against the glasses wearer, we develop an understanding that they are somehow or somewhat lesser. In time, and this is what has happened to us today, in time we will have that feeling of “lesser-ness” toward the glasses wearer EVEN WHEN A CHOICE IS NOT REQUIRED. We start to shape our view of those individuals and it leaves it’s mark. This goes against the Torah and emes. This seepage, if it starts shaping your beliefs about living beings, is dangerous.

I know that one can think a glasses wearer, a comatose patient or a dying old man warrants less medical priority, that is the reality, but I would expect a frum, Torah Jew to spit it out in a sentence that sounds a lot more like:

unfortunately with the healthcare system being what it is, a comatose patient does not warrant the same level of care and priority and it is believed by them that the bed would better serve others.

Someone who utters that sentence will still make choices about where the pint of blood goes, but it sure as heck says a lot about where he stands in his values as they correspond with the Torah.

Syag

I’m really sorry, I dont understand what you are getting at with the glasses scenario.

As Ive pointed out halacha also recognises “contribution to society” though in very different ways than society at large, which is to be expected. See sources above.

R’ Moshe has a teshuva in chelek zayin CM (i dont know off hand what chelek CM it is or the exact teshuva number) where he discusses priorities in health care. He says when faced with 2 people the chayeh olam is tended to. Though if already working on a chaye shah, he cant be abandoned for the chayeh olam.

This is clearly giving a “dying old man warrants less medical priority,” (Obviously not nearly in the same way as the medical establishment)

“but it sure as heck says a lot about where he stands in his values as they correspond with the Torah”

Careful! You could be talking about R’ Moshe.

care to answer the question I posed above

“How would you choose? whoever is closer? whover fell in first? Male? Definitely going to survive? whoever owns the rope? whoever will live longer? whoever will do more mitzvos? The bigger talmud chacham Whoever will allow you to save more drowning people in the future? Some other criteria?”

Syag: I’m sorry that I disappoint you, but I note that you didn’t answer my question. What makes it evil?

I agree they cant be equated, since they ARE the EXACT cases I am discussing.

Then we’re discussing two different things, because there’s a systemic problem which is a whole lot more prevalent than the rare, if not non existent cases you are referring to.

ubiquitin – why would I answer such a question? How could I possibly make life changing decisions without the files in front of me? Your questioning of me just reinforces that we are not really on the same topic at all. I never implied that those decisions could not be made or that they should not be made. I don’t question your ability to find peace with the need to make those decisions. I question your attitude toward the decision, and that you seem to have lost the big picture of what Hashem is asking of us. The glasses scenerio was not hard so understand. It is an exercise I have used with school kids. Perhaps it is too uncomfortable for you (to use your choice of words).

When you choose between two patients, and you believe you are choosing appropriately, are you ever sorry that healthcare even demands it of you? Do you still wish for the day that the government will say, “I can’t believe we are opening more libraries when there isn’t even enough money to keep the dying old people alive!” Probably sounds silly to you. Or maybe you will misunderstand me to say books aren’t important. If Good and Emes ran the world, there would not be a penny going to ANYTHING superfluous if there is an old dying comatose patient who needs that funding to live. It won’t happen but it’s a VALUE. An attitude toward life, and a VALUE.

Anyone who knows the REAL value of a life would let everything else go while they funded healthcare. You can’t possibly change the system, but if only you were willing to see it for what it is and how it has affected you.

“The criticism was leveled by Feivel was against the “medical establishment”

If you will look at my first post with a bit of depth and think about what I said, especially in the context of my further attempts of clarification, you will see my remarks were made in regards to the current secular “humanistic” society, in which the subset of the medical establishment is subsumed.

I only chose the medical establishment to address my remarks to because that was the subject being discussed.

But clearly (I would hope) I was talking about the source of the influence which is the general and rapidly increasing moral decay of modern society and culture.

I am a member of said medical establishment and have seen the almost miraculous decay from the inside along with all areas of society.

I have nothing to say about blood and ropes. This was never the subject of my personal interest.

If you could do me a favor. I really mean it as a simple favor, with no sarcasm meant. Please drop your interest in me in this thread And stick to addressing the remarks of syag dy or anyone else. If you can. Thank you everyone.

a Gutten Shabbos

Syag: Let me give you a Mashal. The Titanic is sinking. Those on board have determined that the men have a responsibility to protect the woman and children and therefore those should get on the available life rafts. That decision may or may not be K’negged the Halachah. But assuming it is, is that decision evil?

ubiquitin & “Feivel” (Mod 80) –

“But clearly (I would hope) I was talking about the source of the influence”

I agree & disagree with both of you!

The notion that Jews are good and Goyim are bad is the way it’s supposed to be, not the way it is! The Goyim nowadays have put more effort in being PC, even when it comes to medicine, than ever before. The “Frum” Yidden are Not far behind, but they’re some of us who delude themselves! I’ve seen it all. If I would elaborate, it wouldn’t be allowed here!

What are true torah values and hashkafa seems debatable. My grandmother had slight dementia and a stroke which made it difficult for her to swallow and communicate. The hospital said there was no need to keep her so she was tube fed at home. With time she got better and was taken off the tube feeding and fed pureed food. She was able to communicate somewhat but not speak much. After approx. 1 1/2yrs when hatzalah was called for some reason there was a question whether to take her to the hospital or not. (what the question was i don’t remember) A Rov was consulted and she was not taken. She was niftar later that morning. This is a strictly chareidi rov.

When blood transfusion were first introduced there were questions if it was mutar to give your blood away as well as organs. It is NOT a well accepted-self understood concept to use life support under all circumstances. There is a big difference between suicide/murder/killing and opposing life support. Not using life support is NOT killing!

But in many cases it is becoming more common where hospitals actually do KILL when it comes to seniors or terminally patients. I’ve seen hospitals were there are many nice and caring people, AND there are also those who do it just as a job and source of income and care about nobody. There is always those few but they exist just about everywhere and they actually do things like not change tubes on ventilators and log they did, reuse the same needle from hrs earlier that was accidentally left there, dropping needles or gauze that needs to be sterile on the floor and using them anyway (unwrapped), even more horrifying use the same Q-tip to clean a tracheostomy from one patient to another. This can actually KILL! And they are actually the good ones saving the hospital money. OR are they in reality stealing the unused item.

**If you don’t open your mouth too much they do it in front of you, and if you do open your mouth they just kick you out and do it behind your back!!!**

This is standard practice I’ve witnessed.

ubiquitin: It does say in Yom Kippur davening – “Tov Shelo Nivrah”- better whoever is not created. Instead of spending so much money to prevent abortion, why don’t they spend the money to try to educate people to separate and not get pregnant in the first place.

Amein!!!

Leave it to you, Oomis. You always know how to turn a gloomy, uchy, morbid conversation cheery…

Lack of ability and negligence are different from purposely not feeding.

DY -“The overall values the medical establishment holds of are corrupt, even if not all applications are necessarily inherently evil or even”

Your very much incorrect! Maybe our society is corrupt, but Not the medical establishment. I wonder where you got your info from?

DY

So based on one friend’s stories you’ve labeled the entire medical establishment as having “overall values” that “are corrupt”

I thought we were friends, and I’m telling you the opposite, only Im not basing on “stories” but actual conversations with may many colleagues

The overall values are:

Beneficence (acting in best interest of patient)

Non-malfeficence Z(do no harm)

Autonomy (Patients get to decide)

Justice

Often these come into conflict (For example a patient who refuses life-saving treatment; Autonomy vs. Beneficence) And the medical establishemnt might resolve these conflicts in a way that is not based on Torah (though it often is the smae outcome)

I dont see how these are “corrupt values”

Would you care to elaborate the corrupt values your friend encountered?

DY

Are you saying if it is not based on Torah it is automatically corrupt?

Incidentally, there are rare cases where the rolls are reversed.

For example, I know of a case where a patient was dying of cancer and the family wanted to prolong his life, as a son was on his way from Israel. The patient’s respiratory status deteriorated to the point that he required a ventilator. The Doctor’s were eager to intubate to prolong life for a few more days, but the Family’s Rav advised against it, since it would not really change the overall prognosis and once intubated they would be “Stuck” since it would be problematic to remove the ventilator.

The Ethicst was flabbergasted, since a key yesod of modern medicla ethics holds withholding and withdrawing are the same. He could not understand if the Rav was willing to withold treatment why not innitiate it, allow the son to come say goodbye and then withdraw. Obviously halacha views them differently.

(This wouldn’t change your over all view, just an interesting aside)