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Our daughter is still quite young (almost 2), but the more I look around, the more I wonder whether homeschooling might be my best option. I’m looking for input from people who have experience with homeschooling, especially in Yeshivish circles. Have you seen it done successfully? Do you have any advice for someone who is considering it? Do you know of anyone currently doing it in Lakewood? Any help would be appreciated.
There was an article about homeschooling in this past week’s Mishpacha. (I’m not sure if it was in Family First or regular Mishpacha). See if you can get a copy; You’d probably find it interesting.
Why do you want to home school?
I have no experience with these things but I would think LONG and HARD before making a decision.
Firstly, will she/he be socially awkward not having the same social experience as his/her peers?
Will she/he have attachment issues (home all day with Mommy/siblings)?
What if this situation cannot go on for ever for a dozen reasons that can come up and she/he is suddenly thrust into school at age 12, 13, 14. Would that be traumatizing? Will she/he be able to adjust?
I never really thought into this but these are just things that came to mind right now.
(Also, is this an issue of Al tifrosh min HaTzibur?)
Your daughter is very young. You may want to try keeping her home with you for a couple of years & forgoing playgroup, and seeing how that works for you. That may give you an idea as to whether homeschooling suits you & your family.
I do keep my children home with me until they are 4 or 5; they socialize by playing with their siblings & neighbors, and start school in pre-kindergarten at around age 4-1/2. This has worked well for us. Even if you don’t choose to homeschool there are many ways you can supplement her education at home after school & during the summer.
I can see homeschooling one child, but for most of us who have several children it would be alot to handle unless you have a live in, or at least plenty of household help. I think my kids would have been very lonesome if they were homeschooled. Especially as they got older.
Don’t do it. You would be doing your child a major disservice. Kids need to interact with kids in order to grow. You don’t have to tell me that you are turned off by the administrators and principals and their holier than thou attitude. Most of us are. Still, I would strongly recommend you do anything possible to avoid homeschooling.
I homeschooled my son until he entered 7th grade. It was the best gift I have ever given him. I don’t know how much experience the other posters on this thread have had with homeschooled kids, but based on some of their comments, my guess would be not much. My son is one of the most social creatures I have ever encountered and he had absolutely no problems adjusting to “regular school.” In fact, I have only received positive reports from his teachers since he started school last year.
Lakewoodwife, I would be happy to discuss my experiences with you and answer any of your questions privately.
In my (humble?) opinion after all is said and done, it is not always the best approach to do things “differently”. Being “normal” is also a good thing in life. Unless the norm is really bad you’re probably best sticking to that in most situations.
I know I will get attacked for saying this but it is true.
What about Shidduchim…?
chaimsmom, would you mind sharing the reasons you chose to homeschool? Do you have other children, and, if so, did you choose to homeschool them too? Also, how did you prepare yourself to teach him all the subjects he needed to know? If you’d prefer not to share here I understand.
I myself was homeschooled as I lived in a small town and the local cheder closed down. I did this for a few years until we were able to move to a larger city. I have experience and have a few points that I would like to bring up.
1) For Lemudei Kodesh we went to the Rav who used to run the day school and he tutored us along with a few families that also were homeschooling. We all did the Lemudei kodesh together in the Rav’s office and side room of the shul. He hired all the teachers if he was unable to do it. Who will be teaching your children Lemudei Kodesh?
2)The Secular studies aspect- i am not sure about where you live, but where I lived there is something called truency. You have to be enrolled in a school so the public school system had a homeschooling program. All you did was come in to an officec once a week and turn in your completed homework that they assigned the week before. We worked at my level, which was good. By the time I entered a real school, I was ahead in many areas. You need to find out if your city has this option.
3)Skill wise- I said I was ahead in some areas, but the problem was that I was behind in others. See what age you want your children to join a regular school and see their level and gauge if you can do it. Problem: some things you cant teach your children (science labs) and your children will be behind in it.
4)Socially- I did not have many friends homeschooling, as there were few frum kids my age. I knew one girl my age, one a year younger who moved away, and I had my younger sister who was two years younger then I was. Certain social skills like being in a classroom, being with other teachers besides “mommy”, having to follow strict schedules and rules…. can only be learned in a classroom with other kids. Also group work can only be done with a group! Also, I did not have test-taking skills that I needed, so it was hard for the new school to realize that I knew the math and they put me in the low class (remedial) instead of the honors class (the school split math when I entered the school.
Hatzlacha in making this major decision! There are benefits to both sides, but I mainly addressed the issues as you seem to have some positives in mind that you are contemplating this idea.
5) as the mother, you need to be prepared to teach the information or hire someone to teach it. You need to know the material and be able to explain it in a way they can understand. I was more independent and would do my work on my own and read the chapters in the history book by myself and then later on ask my mother a few questions I had. It helped me with independent learning skills that many kids who go to regular school do not have, as I found out later.
There were many benefits and I dont want to scare you off from homeschooling. I was ahead in a few areas. Also, scheduling was easy- I did extra work in december and during the goyish holidays and I got sukkos and yomim tovim off. I had to do a lot more work in the weeks prior to the yom tov, but i got chol hamoed off. Also, if we had a family simcha, I just did extra work the week before I left (we had special arrangements made with the office). Also, if we went on a family trip to visit my family for a long trip, I would visit a museum or two and write a “report” (depending on the age, it meant different things) on something I learned there. And I would read a few books on the plane or in the car and write book reports ect. I also was able to study what I was most interested in. They would give you a few titles of age-appropriate books and we would pick the one I liked the best. There was a lot more leway with homeschooling. They would give you enough work for the week and I would do it all on monday and tuesday (work really hard those days) and have the rest of the week off if it was rosh hashana later in the week, or we just had plans to do something then.
havesomeseichel, thanks for sharing your experience. Based on your experiences, would you homeschool your own children?
We decided to homeschool because the local cheder simply wasn’t able to provide what our child needed. I had taught at the school and knew the secular studies program was not strong. On top of that, our child was academically advanced. He was reading before he was four and working with fractions, decimals and negative numbers before he was five. By their own admission, the school did not have the resources to keep him stimualted all day.
Teaching elementary subjects doesn’t take a lot of preparation – we’ve all been through elementary school. There are many good websites with free materials for both secular subjects and limudei kodesh.
We opted to not join a homeschooling support group, but many homeschoolers do. The groups go on field trips, do group projects, etc. so kids get the experience of doing things as a group.
We have one child, but I know many people who homeschool multiple kids.
One thing anyone who is considering homeschooling needs to do is check state law. Although homeschooling is legal everywhere, laws vary by state and some states have more requirements than others.
forget homeschooling.
here is a proven idea that will work:
in the 1980’s Ed Koch had a law floating around that would have made it mandatory for all agencies (including private) that got any funding whatsoever from the government to allow gays employment. Cardinal O’Oconor was going to have none of that, so he called Ed Kooch. He let him know that the minute that law was signed, he would officially close all his shelters, nursing homes, hospitals, care centers, etc, and dump all thos people on the city. of course the city couldnt handle such a thing, especially in a 1 day, all at once period. guess what, the law never passed.
on to prices of yeshvos:
we can do the same thing, in a very simple manner,
ALL the yeshivos, AT ONCE, must close thier doors, from teh most right wing, to the most left wing, fromt eh frummest, to the most modern, ALL. a letter will go out to all parents, telling them which public school in their area they should go to for the first day of school. ALL parents must take off from work, and go with their children to the local public school. we are talking here of way over a hundred thousand of children on an already stressed system. i would say an emergency meeting in the city council, and state legislature would pass through vouchers in minutes, if not seconds, for the city and state, by law, has to educate all children, and if they dont have the capabilities, they can get sued.
see the problem is, the goyim know that we jews can never do anything as a group, because we all hate eachother. it is pathetic. so, we continue to pay more and more for education, while receiving less and less form our stolen tax dollars. thruth is, all schools dont have to od this, if even all the frummer yeshvivos did this, it would hurt the ps system. this must be done for the future of our children, as the new young parent generation just cannot afford these tuition prices. most of us entered the job market with not much more of a increased salary then our parents in similiar fields, yet cost of living has quadrupled. a house when my prents bought one, was 150-200 thousand, now, they are near 500-600 thousand. schools were considerably cheaper, and supplies for school were as well.
when we do get our vouchers, which this process will force to happen, there is a next step, one that will drive down the cost of school tremendously. now the way our yeshivos are run, there is one central office in each yeshiva, they go and order books, and materials for thier 30-60 etc studetnts in each class. that is moronic. becasue most yeshivos use similiar books. now if all of them got together, and we made a central office, just to take care of these functions, not anything else, the prices of school materials would plummet. instead of 300 schools buying 100 board erasers, one organization buys 30 thousand. the discount would be huge. now add this to chalk, cleaning supplies, paper, books, pens, pencils, stickies, etc. you get the point. even limudeo kodseh . what the heck is the differance between a meseches succah in chaim berlin, torah vodaas, mir, boston, satmer and/or visntiz, etc. NOTHING. instead of buying them each yeshiva sepreately, buy it as one, in bulk.
the catholics do it, and it cuts costs. CUNY/SUNY does it, and it cuts costs. who doesnt, the jews! the people who are supposed to be thrifty and money smart! Why? because we are idiots, and for some reason, even for our own good, would never sit down with people with different thoughts then ours. MORONIC!! this needs to stop, or kids will start going back to public school because tuition is getting impossible to pay.
all you self appointed “askanim” who somehow have access to every “godol” under the sun, the next time you are getting them to assur some other stupid thing, tell them to also sign a statement telling all yeshivos not to reopen after succos.
ALL the yeshivos, AT ONCE, must close thier doors, from teh most right wing, to the most left wing, fromt eh frummest, to the most modern, ALL. a letter will go out to all parents, telling them which public school in their area they should go to for the first day of school. ALL parents must take off from work, and go with their children to the local public school. we are talking here of way over a hundred thousand of children on an already stressed system. i would say an emergency meeting in the city council, and state legislature would pass through vouchers in minutes, if not seconds, for the city and state, by law, has to educate all children, and if they dont have the capabilities, they can get sued.What makes you think that they couldn’t take in the students? Yes they would have to scramble a bit, but they probably could do it. More importantly having the public schools fund yeshivas would violate state law. You can complain to the folks up in Albany if you want but I don’t think they will change the law.
Also if this trick would work why haven’t the catholic schools tried it? They are a lot more organized than Jewish schools are. One memo from the Arch-Bishop and its done, I would guess. Except the Arch-Bishop has lawyers who would tell him why it won’t work.
Zachkessin: there is a simple reason, there are about 15 catholic schools in nyc. They are going bankrupt. If they close, we are talking maybe 15 kids per local school, as they are bussed from all over. Whereas yeshivos are all in the the same 3 neighberhoods for the miost part. We are talking thousands of kids per local school. There is no way in gods green earth the system could handle that type of influx at once.
As for seperation of church and state, you are regurgitating liberal nonsemse. The state isn’t picking a religion. Vouchers are used in about 17 states. Its fine.
just an addition to the seperation of state and church thing.
nowhere is that law found, it is found in documents, but nowhere in actual law until 1947.
it comes from the words of a supposed letter written by thomas jefferson, who was talking about the federal government adopting a religion, like england had. at that time every colony actually had an official religion, some had multiple. this continued for a while when they became states. jefferson, himself a deist, believed in god wholly, and wrote of creating a wall sperating church and state. hear that, creating a wall, which means that church and state do mix, yet there must be protections put in place so that one does not take over the other in any direction, religion to control govt, or govt to control religion.
in no way are vouchers unconstitutional. its has been tried, and tested, and withstood appeal.
VOUCHERS NOW!!
I learned at home for years, at these ages: 8 – 10; 12 – 14; 15 – 16; and at age 18 I separated from ‘official’ learning forever. When I was younger, it was mainly due to health issues; when I was older, it was mainly due to other reasons.
Back then, I wasn’t religious in any way (my family consists of ‘proud’ and convinced atheists).
As for my own children, I would definitely consider homeschooling for them, if Israel would offer that option and my wife would be willing to consider it also. I dislike the hatred against secular learning in the chareidi education system here. How are children who cannot even spell their name in English, nor do they know where the on/off button of a computer is, nor do they know on which continent China is located, ever supposed to make a living for their families?! I want my children to be like me: properly religious – chareidim – but with a knowledge of languages and the outside world. I want them to be able to face the world as proud Jews and be able to provide for their families with dignity and with the proper preparation.
All day now we say calls from the rabbonim for tefilos harabim for the economic situation. The Edah HaChareidis calls for it almost every week now – the horrible economic situation which is causing huge distress to so many families. They call for tefilos by the children! Well, wake up – the children’s davening isn’t going to be the solution. The solution is, go to school (ie, secular studies) and find a properly job.
That means having to learn foreign languages, computers, having to use the internet, being in contact with the other sex and with less religious or completely secular people, yes.
Some may take another 10 years to get to this realization and some would rather let their children beg for tzedokoh, I guess, but I prefer to face truth the way it is and deal with it properly.
In many other countries it is fully acceptable and normal for chareidi children to have a secular education also. For example, in the Amsterdam cheder / yeshiva / bais yaakov (a single, of course separated institution for all children from age 4 to age 18), they learn from the early morning until the late afternoon and learn *both* the full state-required secular learning program as well as limudei kodesh!
Disclaimer: IANAL and I don’t live in New York state
‘Zachkessin: there is a simple reason, there are about 15 catholic schools in nyc.’ Actually there are 54 high schools in the Arch Diocies of NY. (I just checked their web page) and I expect that they have a lot more than 15 students each. There are a lot more Catholics than Jews in New York.
But from what I understand giving money to religious schools would violate NY State law. If you really want to know ask a lawyer.
Even ignoring the legal issues for vouchers to happen it would need the NY State legislature to pass new laws and to come up with the money. This would be a large sum of money and I just don’t imagine that the folks up in Albany will want to commit to spending $100 million to fund yeshivot and catholic schools (and any other religious schools that may be around, or might be founded to cash in)
In addition if a school takes state funds it means that it has to play but the state’s rules. I would expect that if vouchers were to happen there would be very specific curriculum rules that went with them. And of course accounting practices. I have this feeling that the accounting controls at many yeshivot are kind of happ-hazard and that could cause trouble with government money, but trouble.
However all that is moot, unless and until someone can talk the state into passing a voucher law, for which all efforts have failed over the last 40 years.
vouchers would do well for everyone, because there would be more competition to get into schools. If you can chose a school, the schools will have to compete with eachother and in effect there will be higher and lower level elementary schools so everyone will have to improve.
OK, now just convince the State that vouchers are a good idea. The frum community has wanted vouchers for 40 years but still has made no progress on it.
I am actually ANTI vouchers. Personally, I do not want any of my tax money going to muslim or christian schools. I have the option of using the public education system and if I choose not to, I pay for it.
I think homeschool is an interesting idea. In lower elementary school, you can probably do all the Jewish stuff with your kids – as they get older, it might be harder.
You can also check out different types of educational styles to use with your child – I know there are some strange ones out there, but some work really well. Just make sure that if you choose to home school that you consistently arrange socialization into your schedule. Kids need to learn to socialize with kids and thats one of the fundamentals they learn in school.
ZachKessin: well, actually the catholics are irish and italian, not many of them left in the city. pocket still in staten island, marine park, and bensonhurst. most other “christian” worshipers are of protestant type faiths. also, the ny archdiocese covers 10 counties, that is 7 more then in nyc, because brooklyn and queens fall under the brooklyn dioceses.
ther are over 170 yeshivas alone in brooklyn! lets say each has 750 students, taht would give us 127,500 students in brooklyn alone, almost all living within 2-3 school districts, while the diocese of brooklyn and queens only has 56,000 kids, living all over the place. for instance, i have met kids living in canarsie who went to Xavier High School in bensonhurst. we migh have a yeshiva in bensonhurts, but the kids will all come from midwood, borough park, mill basin, marine park, and kensington. and btw, that number is heavily low balled. most yeshivas have over a thousand kids. now you see why the catholics cant do this. schools are not like the other charities the diocese runs. their nursing homes and such, these would have been a hardship on the city. if they shut their schools, it will add around 30 kids at most to a public school, as kids dont come from centralized locations. if 127,500+ kids needed to go into 15 neighborhood schools, and i dont think there are that many in our neighborhoods, we are talking 8500 kids per school. exactly how will they do that? they cant, and wont!
as far as the legality, im not sure people here know this, but the city does have a voucher plan already, for low income families in grades k-4. it is working very well. so there is clearly no problem.
zach, this is the only way to force the state to pass vouchers.
Sorry it took me a while to get back to you. The decission to homeschool would depend on the situation. For us, it was that or public school (some of the frum kids did that). If I lived in such a town, I would try to move but if I could not, I would homeschool rather then send my children to public school. Homeschooling has its advantages but the socail aspect left me behind when I switched into a regular school. Maybe I would do it for the younger grades and switch them in when they got to 3rd or 4th grade, rather then later on when we moved. But you still must be able to teach your children, besides secular and lemudai kodesh, but how to sit in a classroom, follow directions and listen to someone else teach (not their mother). Furthermore, they would have to get used to learning in a group and not getting 100% of the teacher’s attention at a time. Maybe do what a few families I know did- they all went to one place to do their homework/schoolwork but the parents hired one teacher to answer their questions. It taught them to listen to someone who is not their mother, wait their turn for questions to be answered, and still they got to learn at their own pace and they got the self-motivation lesson. Maybe learn lemudei kodesh together or something. There were no homeschooling groups in our community since it was too small, so I cannot tell you whether or not to join one. It may be beneficial to get the social interaction. Be aware that children need friends, and once they get into school-age, their friends are the ones who they are in class with. By not being a part of that class, they may lose out on friends.
I managed alright, but it was difficult the first year or so, especially since my teachers did not understand my situation.
sjsinnyc, youre thinking is heavily flawed. the money YOU send to teh government will be given BACK to YOU in forms of vouchers. you are already paying for your kids education in city/state taxes. this will just give you that portion back. thats all.
Vouchers will be helpful, but howdo u think we can convince parents to do this? I wouldnt want my children in public school. Will it work since many parents feel the same way as I do?
I think someone mentioned that they should go with the parents no?
Also, is that how it works? Can you just show up at the school? No application necessary?
Why doesn’t everyone send in applications on the same day? they would be suddenly flooded!
the voucher idea would never pass as the goyim do not want to have to give up their free education. In effect, when you give vouchers to the families, they can choose whether or not to use them for public school or private. Many of them cannot afford to pay the difference between the cost and the voucher.
I hate to say it, but vouchers would not pass through the state government and if this idea of flooding the schools works, unfortunatly it would only help NYers and not the rest of the country. And there are plenty of frum schools around the country. We need to have a mass-country wide flooding of the public schools. If the gedolim would tell americans to all sign up for public schools in the same week-then that would make a real difference.
havesomeseichel: flooding public schools will only work in brooklyn, nowhere else. in fly over country, the public schools are fine. its in urban areas. only jews live in literally 2 school districts 20 & 21. catholic schools bus kids from all over. if all the parents bring their kids on the first day of school, by 10 oclock a voucher vote wil be presented and passed. it will bankrupt the state of ny in one day! they will need to call in the national guard to organize the new students, it will be massive chaos. it will be great, and we will get our vouchers!
But what about all the other Jews in Cleveland, New Jersey, Monsey, Los Angeles, Chicago….. or are NYers still think there are no Jews west of the Hudson? I hate to break it to you, but there are many more communities then Brooklyners realize… we need to come up with a nationwide solution, not one that would help only a portion of the Jewish world living in America.
havesomeseichel,
You seem to take offense that someone only thought of a solution for Brooklyn. He did not necessarily forget that there are Jews west of the Hudson River, but the solution he thought of was for Brooklyn. If there is a nation wide solution that would be great but that does not mean that if it is possible to do something for brooklyn we should not so as not to leave out anyone else.
Hate to burst the bubble, but I’m sure there is some place in the NYC system (I heard South Bronx is particularly nasty) where they will bus your child for a day. Included in the day’s schedule will be a sex-ed course, complete with graphic descriptions. Or how about just the teaching of evolution?
After that, they will have no problem with you wanting to sent your child to public school.
havesomeseichel: it is a matter of logistics and state laws. we cant force laws onto cities and states that we ourselves dont live in. yes, of course we should continue to push our congressman to have a nationwide voucher program, but that is alot harder, and takes more time. this is a solution then can help now! you have to realize that outside of israel, the most jews ARE found in NYC, and that yeshivas in nyc are alot more expensive then their out of town counterparts. the yeshivas themselves have to pay higher utilities, higher wages do to higher cost of living. not to mention, that out of town jewish day schools tend to get more funding from jewish federations. i am in no way mitigating the fact that out of town parents need help. but to say that new yorkers shouldnt help themselves because out of town communities wont be helped is not using any seichel! should we not open any more stores that sell kosher food, because some out of town communities arent able to have one, or not build any more mikvaos, becase some out of town communities cant afford one. nonsense!
and btw, we are not brooklyners, we are brooklynites. just letting you know.
and this will effect not only nyc residents but all ny residents, from ny to buffalo. it would have to be state wide, as they are technically responsible for schooling children. the city is given the right through the state, but funding ultimately comes fromt eh stae, as so will teh vouchers. yes people living in nj, virginia, illinois, pennsylvania, california, etc will have to do their darndest to have it passed in their states.
gavra_at_work: in nyc they are only allowed to bus IN, not OUT! very big differance. see, if a parent wants to send their kid to a school outside their district, their is a process, otherwise all kids must stay in THEIR district, in brooklyn, that would be all of 2, districts 20 and 21, which are over loaded as it is. reading and math teachers working in janitorial rooms, therapies given in the gymnasiums. etc. trust me when i say that the jewish kids will never see the inside of a public school classroom.
mariner:
Don’t know the rules in NYC, but I can’t imagine the city not being able to bus out due to overcrowding. If not, they can always change the rules due to severe overcrowding (or change the “district”).
I wasnt saying that Nyers should not help themselves if they could, but that there has to be a better idea that would help the greater population. Many people are drowning in debt trying to send their children to elementary school.
And just because I am an out of towner… tuition in some out of town communities run pretty high… and cost of living can be quite high as well. Housing has become so outrageous that someone I know moved from an out of town place to another(the second being closer to NY) and they had to buy their house and the empty lot next door or else lose it all in taxes! Kosher food and clothing is cheaper in NY then in some out of town places, as they have to ship everything there!
My point is that NYers aren’t unique in the fact that tuition is high and the cost of living outrageous. There has to be a better solution. Is there a way to lower tuition or reduce costs? Put up more plaques to raise money? Something has to be done!
We are yeshivishe (light– we do kiruv and we are BTs) and we are in our second year of homeschooling our three (ka”h) children. Please feel free to contact us for more information.
havesomeseichel,
You are right that out-of-town schools can have very high tuition. I lived in a small community in central-US; in the local cheder, over half of the students were the children of klei kodesh (Rabbaim & Kollel members) & paid very little or no tuition. About 25% of the children paid full-tuition with little difficulty. The remaining 20% struggled to pay full- or 90% tuition; some took out federal loans & second mortgages to do so, besides amassing significant credit card debt. Because the school was already giving large breaks to the klei kodesh, they could not afford to give any breaks to the “working middle class”.
anon for this- This is what caused my school to close down when I was in early elementary school and had to homeschool (or go to public school C”V). There were about 40 families sending their children to the cheder and only about 3 (including my family) paid full tuition. Some paid half but the majority were children of teachers in the school and could not afford to pay much at all. And of those 3 who paid full, they were the ones who had few children in elementary school. (we had no frum high school at that time. Who knows what we would have done if the school lasted that long.)
There must be a solution! I wonder what happened to those neshamos that went to public school… I heard that some are not frum anymore…
OP: Your daughter is 9 now. Did you go the homeschooling route? How’d it work out?
“ALL the yeshivos, AT ONCE, must close thier doors, from teh most right wing, to the most left wing, fromt eh frummest, to the most modern, ALL. a letter will go out to all parents, telling them which public school in their area they should go to for the first day of school. ALL parents must take off from work, and go with their children to the local public school. we are talking here of way over a hundred thousand of children on an already stressed system. i would say an emergency meeting in the city council, and state legislature would pass through vouchers in minutes, if not seconds”
This is a fantastic idea. Why aren’t we implementing it???
Thank you for the update. I’m glad that it worked out so well for you.
And glad to have gotten the first post from you in 3.5 years. Obviously you’ve been lurking all this time if you saw the post so quickly. 😉
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