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“Coffee: what do you think shows someone as a Darchei talmud?“
Having a ledger with the rebbe
Different yeahivos focus on different things (if someone can learn in a certain way for example) I don’t know any other yeshiva that highlights a kesher to their rebbe
We talk about reform and socialists as if they are an external threat, but they came somehow from inside of the normative community. We can blame the czar, Pascal, Marx and Napoleon but still the Jewish community and leaders let the reform happen… This is not to blame someone specifically, we are talking about new unprecedented challenges, but we need to admit that all movements came from is
DaMoshe: Who do you think you’re kidding. You know as well as anyone that Modern Orthodoxy is split between the Left-Wing Modern Orthodox (LWMO) and the Right-Wing Modern Orthodox (RWMO). YU has both, both in the student body and in the faculty. Mr. Avi Weiss is as mainstream Modern Orthodox as anyone. He was a YU Rabbi and RCA member. He was with YU and the RCA as long as he wanted to be. They never threw him out. He only quit the RCA not long ago. Mr. Weiss’s so-called “synagogue” is STILL and official Orthodox Union shul and he an OU “rabbi”. The OO have always identified as MO, from long before the term OO even existed. And they’re claim to being MO is at least as strong as that of RWMO.
Furthermore, the LWMO is larger than the RWMO, in terms of adherents. This is mainly because the right of MO (which is still to the left of traditional Orthodoxy) split over the last 40-50 years, with most members either moving left to LWMO or completely irreligious or otherwise moving to the right, such as becoming Chareidim (most Chareidi shuls and Yeshivos in America have numerous former MO Jews.)
Did you ever read the tzitz eliezer ‘s teshuvah? He does not say that an adult can change their sex and marry the same gender. He is talking about freak incidents where a person loses or gains an organ min hashomayim, or babies who have genetic issues. What they’re saying never dawned on the tzitz eliezer or any other person before 10 years ago, when this abomination became popular.
The sefer dor tahapuchos was written about this issue, and he discusses the TE – the sefer used to be a secret among rabbonim who had to deal with otd and BT trans people, but now it’s readily available in seforim stores.
If you’ve bought into the idea that their marriage is acceptable according to anyone, you’ve become the exact people who are on what you describe as open orthodoxy. Go ask rabbi bender if a transgender person can marry a man – if you have the nerve to ask a rosh Yeshiva such a question. I guarantee he will be flabbergasted at the thought of it and will not look at you the same afterwards. It’s disgusting, and that couple is oseh aveiros beyad ramah.
What’s worse is that they are claiming to be frum, and as you’ve demonstrated, they’re able to infect those who are susceptible with their poison.
It’s not limited to open orthodoxy. Already in 2007, when i was in high school and was captain of the debate team, my school pulled out of the entirely MO school league because the finals were a debate about polyamory, stipulating that no religious arguments can be made. They already took toeva marriage as a given.
This league included the best and brightest of the mainstream MO schools in NYC. All of them. Shown to be rotten to the core.
This was 15 years ago. It’s only gotten worse.
MO is fake judaism. I’ve been there, i escaped its horrors. Don’t let anyone, even talmidei chachamim, have you believe what can be demonstrably false.
I spoke as someone who has experienced the various streams of MO. I mentioned that the students of rabbi shechter are relatively normal in their halachik thinking, but not 100%, because there’s influence of nationalism and their college studies.
Some of my childhood neighbors became successful in learning in RIETS and are people who I trust to a pretty large degree, and with whom i could have normal learning conversations about everything except zionism. I respect that. I would not be bothered much if a student of mine(this has happened) followed the psakim of rabbi shechter or rabbi willig.
What i don’t respect are the other elements in YU, including in the beis medrash. Go talk with the bochurim, go hear what they think of hashkofa matters. And go speak with many of the rabbis, who spew heresy about science being as important as torah.
And then read what the students write in their newspapers.
Then look at the communities the young couples create. Cesspools of immodesty and apikorsus.
Yabia Omer, you are so clueless about how the Ashkenazim are! It is impossible to keep in the fold those 80% without compromising Halocha. Nobody was mafkir them, they did it to themselves or their ancestors went off and the descendants are not easy to repair.
It is by far, by far more of a second (the ancestors going off) than the first.
In the overwhelming majority of cases it is the ancestors who went off or were forced off.
Going back to Reform – imagine we would have all the tools and institutions we have now at the time reform, communists, and maskilim were starting up: yeshivos, BYs, Artscroll, YU, Hillels on campus, Chabad houses, R Lord Sacks, R Berel Wein – would you think many of those Jews stayed within the boundaries, satisfying their yearning for gashmius or spirituality using these tools? So, we did not have them in time and it is the whole community “fault”. Again, “fault” as shortcoming, I am not saying that 18th century Berlin Rabbis were expected to come up with all of this. But Mendelhson at least tried, and those who opposed him also tried.
Do you think Satmar holds of Chaim Berlin? You’re mistaken.
YO – I’ve known plenty of satmar chasidim, both talmidei chachamim and hamon am. Among the ones who learn a lot, there’s a complicated relationship with litvishe, chaim Berlin included
. They understand that the yeshivos have authentic Torah; the satmar rov was very machshiv people like rav moshe, rav yaakov, and told chasidim to daven by rav yaakov yosef, chief rabbi of new york. They will learn the igros moshe but not pasken out of it
They also will not shy away when the rebbe criticizes litvish people for voting, etc…but they can respect litvishe people on an individual level, and will talk in learning with them(i.e. me) the same as anyone else. They don’t always assume that I’m modern, but there is such an undercurrent.
With the hamon am…many are open, and many are closed off, thinking that anyone who doesn’t follow the satmar rov’s shitos regarding voting etc..are not frum. But that’s not something you see by the lomdei Torah.
Aaq, every generation has its nisyonos and resources. Prewar jews had access to tzadikim and talmidei chachamim that were unlike anything we can imagine in our time. They were presented with an opportunity to leave the ghettos and pursue an olam hazeh life. Some chose Torah, and others chose ta’avah. Rav Hirsch championed a non-ghetto Torah life where the Torah Jew spreads Torah around the world and makes a kiddush Hashem by working among goyim, while maintaining impeccable adherence to Torah.
Maskilim, reform, and what would later become MO all gave into their ta’avos and embraced modernity not leshem shomayim.
YO: You’re an ignoramus. The Rosh Yeshiva of Chaim Berlin, Rav Hunter zt’l, and the Satmar Rebbe zt’l we’re very close to each other.
Avira,
I am saying the fact that so many people left the community is, in some part, the hesaron of the community itself.People were looking and trying different approaches. You can’t blame Mendelsohn for trying, and you can’t blame those who opposed him for trying. But I am sure there were people then also who were sitting and criticizing everyone who tried to find solutions. Maybe some became Reform, etc because of the lack of effort and not because some efforts were not successful.
“Having a ledger with the rebbe“
I meant kesher (stupid autocorrect)
I think it’s obvious that Eidah Chareidis doesn’t hold of Ponovezh.
Aveirah, the Tzitz Eliezer actually starts off the teshuvah by saying he is addressing when someone had surgery to change their gender. He uses the cases of the androgynous person as the basis to determine what the halachah is for someone who had the surgery.
It must be stressed that his teshuvah does NOT address whether it is halachically permissible to have the surgery – he may hold it is assur. He only addresses the b’dieved of someone who already had it, and what the person’s status is.
I have not bought into this couple’s marriage. Personally I am repulsed by it. However, as I noted, the Tzitz Eliezer was a huge gadol, and may be relied upon. So it is possible that the marriage isn’t halachically wrong – only the surgery was. The status of this person is a machlokes.
As for a debate team, there actually is value to arguing without religious points. If a lawmaker wanted to pass laws allowing things which are against our values, we can’t really argue against it using religious reasons. We’d need arguments that are valid under the US Constitution and laws. This type of debate encourages these arguments, and shows how these things are bad for EVERYONE, even those who don’t believe in the Torah – how else would you convince these people?Damoshe – read it again, and not excerpts quoted by the deranged Mike moskowitz. The surgery was done on a baby with GENETIC ANOMALIES, not people who have mental health delusions about their gender. It never dawned on him, or anyone else in his time, even goyim, to change a biologically normal person into the opposite gender.
Read dor tahapuchos. Please do. You’ve read some truly poisonous garbage online from apikorsim and it’s affected you l.
And please, if you’re anywhere near as comfortable talking about this with rabbi bender as you are online, ask him if there’s an iota of source for such a thing, and if that person can marry a man.
Re, debate – it’s not the job of 16 year olds to deal with Torah issues from a secular perspective in order to do kiruv. Also, the starting point is that such things are possible – wrenching a moral issue out of its morality and talking about it from a sociological standpoint is disgraceful to the Moral Authority who dictates it.
Also, they’re not being given a seminar on how to discuss the issue with non frum people. They’re being told to argue both sides and treat them equally. That’s effectively telling teenagers tbat there is a valid side to breaking the 6th commandment.
Would you be comfortable with teenagers researching the positions of Holocaust deniers, and having one side try to prove the Holocaust was a hoax, in order to prepare them for discussions with confused people?
And clearly, Gur don’t hold of Mir.
Aveirah, I don’t even know who Mike Moskowitz is. I did look up the teshuvah. He actually mentions that he read in newspapers that surgery is available now for gender changes. He says it must be examined as to what the status is, and that’s why he brings in the cases of an androgynous or a tumtum, in order to provide a base in establish halachah. But it’s pretty clear that he is referring to modern surgeries, to change a person’s gender.
As I said, I don’t follow this psak. But if others do, the Tzitz Eliezer definitely was a huge gadol.The next time I see R’ Bender, I will try to remember to ask him this. I have no problem asking him about anything, you’d be surprised about some of the things we’ve discussed over the years.
Your pure hatred towards Jews who don’t think like you continues to show. You will say anything to try and show them in a negative light. I’m not even referring to the former teacher at Magen David, I’m referring to your opinions about good, frum Jews who happen to call themselves Modern Orthodox.
I really hope you do teshuvah, and begin accepting and loving your Jewish brethren. Maybe that will help bring Mashiach – your current stance is probably preventing it.What’s so hard for you to pick up the phone and call Rabbi Bender?
Let’s get this straight – not wanting abominations in the world and not accepting jews who accept those abominations…is preventing the geulah. Don’t you think the abominations themselves are more likely to prevent the geulah? Because Hashem says he hates them. Actually, he calls them… abominable. Disgusting. Hated.
MO are ok with that. Ozvei Torah yehalelu lerasha. I think that prevents the geulah. Or maybe it’s the people who learn only Torah and don’t accept goyish influence, and speak out when kovod shomayim is defamed. Yes! Those are the ones who prevent moshiach ‘s arrival.
I really want to hear about the profound trauma that Avira went through. It’s so obvious. She told us she grew up MO and then became chareidi. Share for the group please.
And Bobov evidently don’t hold of Telz
YO: As a self-loathing Ashkenazi who is envious of Sephardim, even though you completely do not understand a thing about Sephardim, you’ve blamed your having grown up Reform on your ancestors who ditched Torah observance. Yet your claims to have become a baal teshuva are belied by your disagreements with following Jewish law.
It’s obvious Ujm is a tuna beigel. I’m willing to put money on that
Aveirah, no, I’m not suggesting to accept abomination. I’m suggesting that if someone in a terrible situation has a major posek to rely on, then maybe try to be a bit understanding.
In certain cases, Rabbonim will look for leniencies as much as possible (such as possible mamzer cases). It’s not like the individual in question was relying on something from Avi Weiss – the Tzitz Eliezer is widely accepted as a reliable gadol. So why can’t you accept the possibility that there is a halachic basis for this, instead of just condemning everyone and everything you disagree with?DaMoshe, which terrible situation?
DaMoshe, very valid point
mdd1: The case in question is there is a person who claims to be frum, who was born as a man, and had surgery to become a woman. This person is now married to a man, and they claim to live a frum lifestyle, as Lubavitch chassidim.
The Tzitz Eliezer has a teshuvah that says when someone has surgery to change gender, halachically they become the new gender. Aveirah is trying to claim that this person is committing horrible aveiros by being married. I am pointing out that while most don’t agree with the Tzitz Eliezer, he was definitely a top-notch gadol, and who are we to say he shouldn’t be followed, especially for someone who really felt they needed this surgery?damoshe, if there was such a psak, that post-facto such a person is considered a woman to the point that they can marry a man, then I wouldn’t be saying anything. But no such psak exists. The sefer dor tahapuchos is the only posek I know of who weighs in on the issue directly, and says very clearly that according to no opinions can such a person be considered a woman in kiddushin, etc..what he does say is that social halachos, like where to sit in shul, can change, because that person does not look or behave in a way that is intermingling with members of the opposite gender.
There is no such psak ever. Not one. He has no one to rely on, except the heter of rav huna
keivin she’avar, nehesis lo heter. Heter salka daytach? ne’esis lo KE’heter..
Also, nowhere does the tzitz eliezer say it’s permitted “if someone feels the need for such a surgery” – thats just what liberal idiots have convinced you to think. He’s talking about genetic conditions, not delusional fantasies and mental health problems where a person thinks that they’re in the wrong body.
“when someone feels they need it,”
It’s a la’av of making oneself unable to have children, in the first place. That’s assur even for goyim.
What if someone “really feels” they need to eat treif? Is that a heter? you start out by saying that the TE says that he can marry if he sinned and did the operation, then you show your true intention by saying that the surgery isnt really all that bad, because “he feels he really needs it”
You’re hiding behind a posek has been exposed as nothing more than leftist garbage.
And for the record, the TE is not a “top notch posek” – he’s a posek, one of hundreds of the last generation, and not by any definition the gadol hador, or anywhere close to it. He was a valid posek, but was outclassed by dozens of gedolei olam. Honestly, if he did come up with this idea (which he didnt) he isn’t the kind of person one can follow blindly and claim to be a “toleh al beis din patur” – we’d just say he’s wrong and end the conversation.
He’s not the baal habayis of torah and we don’t create societal constructs and change marriage norms because of him. If, in the olam hadimyon, rav moshe feinstein, the chazon ish, rav elyashiv, rav shlomo zalman, or the like, would say this, then you’d be looking at the most controversial gadol hador since rav yaakov emden proposed pilagshim, but hundreds of times moreso.
“Aveirah” :)))
I never claimed the T”E claimed it was ok to have the surgery. In fact, I stated pretty clearly earlier that it was likely assur. But after the surgery is done, he felt that halachically, the person’s gender was changed.
As far as your “rating gedolim”, I disagree with you.“likely assur” but maybe muttar, DaMoshe? Where do you get such chutzpah?
DaMoshe: Rav Gav Friedman and Rav Hershel Schachter are on par with each other as far as gadlus.
Since you don’t rate gedolim, I’m sure you don’t disagree with this.
Joseph, I’m not discussing whether having the surgery is muttar or not. There is an issur to damage your body. That issur is often waived for medical needs – for example, you can’t just stick yourself with a needle for no reason. But for a diabetic, it’s required for health purposes. With someone who truly has gender identity issues, it must be discussed with a Rav and a doctor, to determine if there is a serious threat of suicide cs”v without it.
Personally, I believe it’s just a mental illness, which should be treated as such. But that doesn’t mean that there isn’t an immediate threat.The question raised was for the b’dieved of a person who already had the surgery – what is their gender from a halachic perspective?
I’m not saying this person is a good person. I was just addressing Aveirah’s accusation that this couple is engaging in serious issurim by living together. That’s all. I believe having the surgery was wrong, and that this person has serious issues. But I also accept that there is a legitimate option (the Tzitz Eliezer) who holds that halachically, this person is now a woman.
I can say with 100% certainty that Aveirah and UJM have a major interruption in their mesorah. In other words, Mesorah is a chain going all the way back to Maimad Har sinai. If there is a break in that mesorah, then paskening, minhagim etc. become hazy. The way they analyze these issues shows me that their mesora is not shaleim. I can say with 100% certainty that both these people have a break somewhere in that mesorah. Same thing with the user in other posts “Joseph”.
The dor tahapuchos paskens that for pikuach nefesh it’s allowed to “transition,” but only if there’s a serious concern of suicide. That’s because the laavin being violated by the operation (seris, lo yilbash, etc..) are not yehereg velo yaavor.
Homosexual relations, however, are yehereg velo yaavor, and cannot be violated even if a person is suicidal. Hence, the marriage is assur, according to the p’sak of pretty much the only posek who has discussed the issue at hand.
The TE does NOT say that such a person can marry a man. There’s no way he or any other person with a mo’ach bekadkado would think of allowing such a public chilul Hashem and sin to happen.
Ask rabbi bender; there’s absolutely no heter for this.
So…the one who says that men are men and women are women has a break in the mesorah, but the one who says that it’s theoretically possible to undergo an operation and become a woman is… keeping the mesorah? Mesorah of…2022 college professors?
Also, much of the basis of the TE’s psak is from ab achron who says that the doctors in his time say that there’s no fundamental physical difference between the genitalia of men and women – that is no longer supported by science.
Before anyone reacts with a cynical “but you yeshiva people say that rabbis know science” – rabbinic authority on scientific information is limited to chazal, and some say rishonim. No one holds that we’re bound to the scientific statements of achronim when they’re visibly not true, , unless the issue is in interpretation of the metzius, whereas we’ll listen to an acharon’s interpretation of the metzius over a scientist.
I am very confused by this constant ranking of Talmidei Chachamim, mostly because someone wants to totally reject an opinion for personal reasons. The fact that arguments between Tzitz Eliezer and Rav Moshe are often discussed should give you a hint that they are of authority that can be compared (specifically on medical halakha).
(I have nothing else to say on this amusing topic)
No you have a break in your Mesora in how you reason and how you react. And what does all this have to do with Shas?
Aaq, besides online forums, which poskim discuss rav moshe with the tzitz eliezer? My rebbe rav belsky was very close to rav moshe, and wouldn’t put almost anyone in the same sentence as him.
YO, i have no idea how my reasoning is non-mesorah based. Can you elaborate?
Avira, don’t expect him to call Rabbi Bender. He knows he’s wrong and he knows Rabbi Bender will tell him so, if he had the audacity to ask him. So instead he’ll continue playing the game that he’s sure he knows what Rabbi Bender would say, and to make you happy he’ll agree to ask him — when he meets him next, within the next year or two. Call him today? Interstate long distance calling charges between NJ and NY are apparently too expensive on his 1990s era landline.
Believe it or not, it’s not so simple to get R’ Bender on the phone, even for former talmidim. He is extremely busy. Honestly, I don’t think this question is worth taking up his time. If i see him in person, it’s one thing to ask. But to get on his schedule, and take up a time slot purely for this, it’s just not right to bother him with it.
So a question if it’s allowed to overturn thousands of years of marriage norms isn’t an important question?
Ujm is right – we all know how repulsive this question is to any talmid chochom or ehrlich Jew.
Take your pick – ask rabbi shechter or rabbi willig if you want; there’s no chance anyone close to normal would allow it
DaMoshe: I could easily get Rav Dovid Feinstein on the phone. Or Rav Shmuel Kamimetzky. He even picked up the phone himself 90% of the time without anyone else answering it for him. Or any number of other gedolim who are easily reachable.
I assume that Rabbi Bender doesn’t live in an Ivory Tower. What are you afraid of?
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