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recently there was a letter to the editor in Mishpacha bemoaning the fact that the person wanted to hire heimish but everyone wanted to be a manager and a fat salary…..I have to agree I know people who have tried to hire heimish many times but it is very hard because any physical work is looked down upon, there is an attitude problem that they are not ready to really work hard….I wish there was a fundamental shift in understanding workplace dynamics and the need to give 100% to your job whether its $10 an hour or whatever
Not too many heimish folks will accept a $10 an hour job.
“Not too many heimish folks will accept a $10 an hour job”
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They will accept, if they will pay for bread and shoes less than you pay.
$10.00/hour = $ 20,800 /year before tax
WOW!!! There is a huge misconception here!! It is not true that Heimish people are not interested in doing physical work!! I am in this field and I don’t appreciate our own kind looking down on their brothers looking for positions. Many firms rather hire a Goy instead of a Yid because THEY ARE TOO CHEAP to pay the going rate!!! $10.00 an hour IS NOT THE GOING RATE!!!! ( Only for the cleaning ladies cleaning your house)Girls straight out of high school with no experience whatsoever get $12.00 an hour! You get what you pay for!! Hiring a Yid means hiring someone with responsibility!! In these trying economic times people should only be hiring our own!! There are all types of candidates, those willing to do physical work and those not!! Not every job is for everyone, but you can find your employee in our world. You just have to know where to look!!!
Many firms rather hire a Goy instead of a Yid because THEY ARE TOO CHEAP to pay the going rate!!!
If they can find someone below the “going rate”, why should they hire someone more expensive?
GRANDMASTER: Mi Keamcho Yisroel!!!! We need to help our brothers!! If not, who will??? You hire a goy and you end up paying in the long run in more ways then one!! You can’t tell me that Yiden are not more responsible??? Yes there are those with attitudes but there are MANY WITHOUT!!!!!!
An instructive case: I am a tradesman in Yerushalayim, I dress in fairly shmattish clothes, and wear my tzizis in so they don’t get exposed to heavy dirt. I also generally wear a wide brim cloth hat to keep the sun off me. When I work in Hareidi housing projects, the children take me to be an Arab, they whisper and point, and steer clear of me. My long whitening beard is no match for their conception that nobody chareidi (or even Jewish) works, and in their short experience and limited exposure, you can’t really fault them for that line of reasoning.
Let’s get something straight.
If someone is willing to do the work for $10 an hour, that is by definition the going rate for that job.
I have to disagree with stam36, though. As pointed out earlier, $10 an hour will only get 20K for the year, which is not enough to be worth working and possibly losing MOFES (which can provide for a decent sized family over 50K a year). That is why for many Yidden, it is a high paying job or sit home and learn, and get supported.
The same goes for buying at Jewish stores. It hurts when I see Yidden in goyish stores that have the same stuff as the Yiddish ones!When my family asked the shaile baout how much more must one spend to give the parnassa to a yid, we were told up to 10% more.. I think that was the number. More than that you are not chayav.
not I: In my area, the main kosher supermarket charges $7 for a pound of chicken cutlets. Shop Rite has it in their kosher section for $5.49. Ground beef (I buy the extra-lean)? Kosher place is $6.99 for 80% lean. Shop Rite is $5.99 for 90% lean.
Let’s take veggies: the kosher store sells green bell peppers for about $1.49/lb. The local Farmers Market sells them for $0.69/lb. Apples? The kosher store sells them for $2.99/lb. Farmers Market is $1.19/lb. Oh, and the Farmers Market stuff is fresher and better quality.
Sodas? Kosher place charges $2 for a 2 liter bottle. Shop Rite often has them on sale for $1. Kedem grape juice? Kosher place is $6 for a bottle. Shop Rite is $4, but often on sale for $3.
Now tell me, where should I do my shopping?
Feif,
I agree with you but if you go to Glatt Express, they sometimes have sales (like chicken cutlets for $3.99/lb or ground beef for $3.99-$4.99/lb). I’ve been there about 4 times since we moved in 4 years ago though 🙂
Now, a problem with sticking with MOFES vs getting a lower paying job is that the lower paying job often leads to better and better jobs. Experience often leads to higher salaries. Its being penny wise and pound foolish.
I thought the letter was the best and most honest thing Ive ever read on the subject
Can someone please transcribe the letter from Mishpacha here?
SJSinNYC: Have you been to Teaneck Kosher? I started buying meats there sometimes. Some of their prices are lower than Shop Rite, and they deliver.
The kosher bakery I go to has 90% non-jewish staff….
Outside there is 100% Jewish people looking for Tzedakah
Go Figure……..
The kosher bakery I go to has 90% non-jewish staff….
Outside there is 100% Jewish people looking for Tzedakah
Go Figure……..
Are those Jewish people capable of holding down a job?
“Are those Jewish people capable of holding down a job?”
not a 100% sure, but from my limited view point, they seem capable of working at bakery.
i dont agree with gavra at work-i think mofes should be a last resort instead of an accepted way of life….take the job for 10 dollars work hard get experience look at yourself as more than just an employee and a can do attitude and you will either move up or on to better things…..sorry for being sarcastic but the “es kumpt mir” attitude of the generation has brought many people with a low work ethic…..every immigrant who came here with nothing worked hard yes sometimes 14-16 hours a day but they were happy and able to put bread on the table…..granted with tuitions today its very tough but if you think its not worth your shalom bayis/self esteem to take a 10/hr job there is always the lottery
I’m talking Metzius, you are talking about an ideal world. Open up your eyes, we (i.e. the yidden, and specificly the non MO frum) have become dependents of the state!
Now if you don’t like it, that is one thing. But to ignore the facts is sticking your head in the sand, hoping it will go away by itself (which seems to be the prefered solution of the Klal at large).
Feif Un, I haven’t been there yet. I’ve heard some good reviews, I just never get a chance to go.
DH usually goes shopping late at night, and we don’t shop that often (usually 1-2X a month). But maybe for our next meat run we’ll do that.
Feif un: that’s a choice you make where to buy your kosher items, I hope you are not compromising on hashgacha by going to shoprite or the likes for meat!! Anyway this thread is supposed to be about HIRING YIDEN and not Goyim in your workplace.
The author of the letter to Mishpacha insists that frum people should work for him for a lesser salary than they seek?
The problem is that to be hired someone (Jewish or otherwise) needs to be hire-able. That part of the equation seems to be left out of this conversation much of the time. If you want to earn more than $12 an hour you need to have a good work ethic and the skills that an employer needs.
A company hires people to create value for the company in some way. If you can’t do that they are not going to hire you, end of story. If the only value you can provide is doing menial work in a warehouse well then you are not going to get paid much because a lot of people can do that job. Jobs that pay well require specific skills.
Crying “Well people should hire more Jews” is pushing the buck to someone else. What have you done to make yourself a person who someone would want to hire? Start with that question and you might get some where.
One has to spend money to make money. Money spent on education tends to create the opportunity to obtain a higher income job.
Zachkessin: You might be making sense but……. There are very many capable Yiden looking for jobs and are unemployed…..
Cantresq: Sorry statistics disagree with you. In todays tough economic times a degree doesn’t guarantee you the position.
@a mamin: it may be so, but i don’t know. I do know that the job market is ruthlessly competitive, at least in software (which is what I do). If you want to be employed don’t just be capable be extra-ordinary! Because if I’m looking for people thats what I am looking for.
And @cantreq said education, not a degree. While they often are seen as the same thing they are not. And while it does not guarantee you anything it does improve your odds quite a bit. Most jobs these days pay you not for what you do, but for what you know. Mine sure does! Anyone could sit here and stare at this screen 10 hours day, very few people can write code as well as I can. Learning to do this took many years and you can be sure I’m still working on it.
Now for the real reason that frum business owners generally don’t want to hire other frum Yiden.
The owners are afraid that today’s frum employee is tomorrow’s competition. It’s happened countless times that a frum employee will be taught the business and open the same enterprise, even undercutting prices and taking away all the customers.
Every good deed never goes unpunished. And signed agreements aren’t worth the price of the ink used to write it.
I think that scenario is very rare.
If I know of a number of cases, it can’t be that rare.
Unfortunately, its not rare.
Also, having frum employees makes it harder on early Fridays, erev Yom Tov etc.
People love that I volunteer to work Christmas week.
“People love that I volunteer to work Christmas week.”
cherrybim:
Are you opposed to an employee opening a business in the same industry or opposed to stealing his former employers customer list? While the latter is wrong by anyone’s definition (and very rare in the frum community — even more so than outside) the former is quite common anywhere and nothing wrong with someone going into business on his own.
Michael Bloomberg is one such example. He worked for Merril Lynch before starting Bloomber L.P. Are you angry at him for competing with Merril after working there and Merril giving Bloomberg his industry knowledge? How is Bloomberg (and all the many like him) any different than what you complain of (assuming that is what you take issue with)?
Remind me not to hire you.
My statement was not made in regard to a discussion on halacha of business ethics, there are many conditions in making a determination; only on why frum don’t want to hire frum.
Cherrybim,
In my field its not usually an issue, except on emergency projects. They tend not to assign those to me unless they don’t need me friday night and saturday. I show up saturday night as needed.
But they still appreciate the Christmas holiday season and knowing someone is there. There is a lot more competition for Christmas week than friday afternoon.
Incidentally, my husband is off Christmas week (his company closes) so it would be nice to be off, but alas…
cherrybim:
If you think it is inappropriate for a Merril employee to quit the firm and open his own competing financial firm, or any similar scenario whether it is with a multinational corporation or a heimisha mom-and-pop shop, I think you are disagreeing with the common sense of 99% of the population. There are not too many people who will fault such a person for going in to business for himself rather than remaining an employee for someone else. Nor will 99% of companies hold it against them. I would venture to say most major corporations today were founded by entrepreneurs who were previously employed by competing firms.
“cherrybim: If you think it is inappropriate for a Merril employee to quit the firm and open his own competing financial firm, or any similar scenario whether it is with a multinational corporation or a heimisha mom-and-pop shop, I think you are disagreeing with the common sense of 99% of the population.”
How do know how I think?
Also, I hardly believe the thinking of the vast majority of our population is our guide; we depend on our Torah and Torah leaders for that.
I agree. It’s not just common sense. The Torah itself allows a person to open a business for parnassa, even if he worked in the same industry for someone else earlier.
I bought a pair of Rockport dress shoes at standard price in Marshalls for $35.99. The next day I happened to be in a frum shoe store and the exact same pair was $115. Many times the frum stores charge ridiculously exorbitant prices. I don’t think any Rov would say that I should have bought it in the frum store!
“It’s happened countless times that a …. employee will be taught the business ….”
An excellent reason why working trumps welfare even if the pay is very low. A worker with a head on his shoulders will learn many skills (who suppliers are, dealing with customers, etc) while on the job. Welfare is a dead end; it should be a temporary help, not a way of life.
If you are so worried that your employees will steal your customers try treating your employees (and customers) better. If someone brings in a big deal cut them into it.
You are all evading the issue at hand. Remember this thread is about hiring Yiden in contrast to goyim. Of course they have to be qualified for the position.Many of them are and are seeking employment, this is not just about having a heart this is about menschlichkeit!!
“I bought a pair of Rockport dress shoes at standard price in Marshalls for $35.99. The next day I happened to be in a frum shoe store and the exact same pair was $115. “
Over- or under-charging by more than 1/6 is asur.
“Not too many heimish folks will accept a $10 an hour job.”
And as the union-busters continue with their success, there will become far more $10/hour jobs than jobs that pay enough to pay yeshiva tuition.
I used to work in a place where the non-Jews would say (in the winter) “It’s Friday afternoon. Doesn’t your Sabbath start soon? Get out of here so you’re not stuck in traffic.” They were actually concerned that I would forget to leave. They knew I came in early every day during the rest of the week to make up the hours.
Charlie Hall: There are many other jobs that pay more than $10.00 an hour!! No man can support a family on that wage!!
As far as overcharging, a store can charge whatever they want…. and you have a choice to buy whereever you choose!!!
“I bought a pair of Rockport dress shoes at standard price in Marshalls for $35.99. The next day I happened to be in a frum shoe store and the exact same pair was $115. “
Over- or under-charging by more than 1/6 is asur.
To the best of my knowledge, Marshall’s sells closeouts.
In addition, to establish that something is asur because of ona’ah, you have to take into account a number of factors, including:
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prevalent selling price (not just compared to one or two stores)
location
level of service
Chances are, a claim of ona’ah in this case would not stand up in B.D..
As far as overcharging, a store can charge whatever they want…. and you have a choice to buy whereever you choose!!!
Absolutely untrue. In cases where the stores are otherwise comparable, Charlie is correct that there is an issur d’Oraiso to overcharge.
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