Highschools with Secular Education

ujm, note that R Moshe is writing about 60 years ago. A lot changed. Threats changed. At that time, a college was a direct path to assimilation. Nowadays, it is still for some, but there a lot of observant professionals who have no such problems. The balance for “need” of college to earn parnosa also changed a lot. Lots of jobs that required high school only are not there any more. This caused a lot of social problems not just in a Jewish world. Note that people did not become noticeably smarter, so a lot of current “college” is really remedial high-school with credential for an office job, and not the high end college that R Feinstein was talking about (and that BY aspires to).

The Mattersdorfer Rav ztz’l explained the passage עם הארץ אסור לאכול בשר, an am haaretz is not allowed to eat meat because he sends his son to college so is chaish lemeuta, the minority that he will come out as good as he went in. The gemora questions according Rebbi Meir, how one could eat meat maybe he shechted at the windpipe or the veshet, the food pipe in place of a hole, therefore, we go after the rov, the majority but he goes after the minority. I said to be careful not be like Haran to go in the fire because Avraham survived. I was specially careful not to go to unnecessary places like the student center.

Avira
Rav Moshe re: “bnei yeshiva”
this is an important distinction that is somehow lost in translation. For me personally, it is obvious that someone going into Rabbonus & Chinuch should spend 110% of his time on limud, and maybe another 10% on getting some general knowledge so that he can apply his learning to current life and relate to his students. You don’t need to become a boke in science, but you need to acquire enough worldview to be able to learn later in life.

Now, for the rest of population, we currently have multitudes going to yeshivos (parallel to masses going to college) – which is a good thing in general, but we need also to train them to earn an honest living. They do not need to go to Ivies, but they can go to local/Jewish/online colleges – and the question should be how to make it safe, not whether. For example, use yeshiva classes/CLEP/AP for humanities to avoid indoctrination, do not dorm in strange places, have hevrusas, combine w/ learning (when R Twerski wrote to Steipler whether he can go to Med school, Steipler replied – with daily hevrusa, mussar/chasidus learning, mikva, I think). I believe this is actually happening under the radar, with people using small NJ colleges to pass at lowest requirement level.

AAQ, i agree 100% that college courses in and of themselves aren’t bad for most people. Rav belsky would tell some talmidim they should go (only to kosher programs), others that they can go, and others that they shouldn’t, depending on a host of variables . He also would say beshem rav yaakov kaminetzky that a younger beis medrash bochur shouldn’t have his eyes on future secular education, but should imagine that his beis medrash years will be the way life will be forever. It’s a mistake to be in high school and be jumping at the future of college; everyone should be focusing on learning at this age, regardless of whether or not their future will be in klei kodesh. When an older bochur told rav pam that he wanted to be a rebbe, he said “you? A rebbe? Go be an accountant”, and this was from a gadol who made impassioned appeals to bnei yeshivos to go into chinuch.

It gets problematic only when the environment is poisonous as it has been progressively degenerate for decades, or when a capable young man decides that he simply doesn’t want to stay in learning despite his abilities.

My experiences were way back in the 1950s and 60s. Never having been blessed with children I never had any reason to involve myself in choosing Yeshivos. So I would not be the proper one to advise you. Many of the Yeshivos that existed in my time have either fallen by the wayside or evolved completely to the right. You need a much younger person to advise you who is familiar with the current scene.

Gadol, I know a number of people going this way, I just don’t know how prevalent it is, maybe others can enlighten us. Even when I was looking for a shidduch in the previous millennium, one shadchanit was musing about Lakewood bnos figuring out that learning SW in a small local college ad working as programmers is a great way to support their kollel husbands. But if this is under-radar and b’dieved, this is probably not done the best way. Kids have limited community support and insight into what they are doing and probably getting more of a diploma mill. For example, it is rare when people complain about English education, but English skills on average are horrible. It is just everyone feels inadequacy in math or science, but it seems to many that as long as you can talk in some English, this is enough. I would guess inability to write well is a barrier to a lot of jobs. You will just not be told after you send an email.

Avira > Rav belsky would tell some talmidim

And I believe the same is true for many other Rabonim, including R Feinstein, that their private advice depends on a person, including Rav Pam’s advice to someone NOT to go into teaching. I’ve seen some who did not ask R Pam. Obviously, only the best should go into teaching, and traditional halakha approach of allowing unlimited competition between teachers works towards same goal.

I understand the idea of learning without thinking of college. This is fine as long as there are responsible adults who will direct the turn when appropriate. But where the focus is on learning and discarding those who do not keep up, may work well to train talmidei chachamim, but less so to develop a healthy community.

well it’s not a good place to “vent”, they can still hear us and be turned off by rants.  We have to always always keep the audience in mind, tearing people apart for things they don’t know about or understand is a shove out the door. I actually just heard a rav give a source for this in a parsha shiur. I will try to remember Bez”H, who and what.

a great idea: Find some way to get Joseph’s number, I think he’d be thrilled to chat with you.

There is a very interesting interview about exactly this subject on this weeks headlines show by David Lichtenstein, at the 57:16 marker. Many of these points were discussed. Question is, why did it take so long for such an obvious solution? Does it strike the right balance?

Syag > how much enjoyment you get out of painting the learning community as a bunch

Syag, not much. I am saying what I am saying in a hope to make things better. I actually think it is very reasonable to send kids to a local cheap school. For sure better than to send to expensive mid quality school far away to study who knows what as many modern people do. I am sorry that I am not very good at cheering people up: when I start analyzing the problem, I immediately start thinking what can be improved. Offline, I might keep it to myself, but I see no reason not to express opinion here where we have a chance to discuss it. I am not the only one (not to compare, but to illustrate). R Steinsaltz once showed a video of some guy from CT approaching Lubavitcher Rebbe to tell him that their community just built a mikva. Rebbe replies I give you a brocha to build a mikva. The guy thinks that Rebbe is not hearing well and repeats louder that they _already_ built the mikva! The Rebbe repeats, the guy gets louder, etc, until the Rebbe clarifies – I give you a brocha to build the next mikva.

AAQ – I’m not talking about your need to recommend fixes. I’m talking about your erroneous view of what you are trying to fix. Does it ever occur to you you may be wrong sometimes?

Syag > erroneous view of what you are trying to fix

well, just list what you disagree with rather than musing about my character. I am really interested in hearing different opinions, especially if they give some explanations. You can also look at the nearby threat of colleges, where OP coming up with seemingly such list of colleges that give you BA for no work. Anyway, we need to define what the goal of the degree is and a path to it. But overall I think the middle path is the right one – not the fancy ivies and not the degree mills, but reasonably-priced local or online or NYC Jewish colleges that give quality education without exposing to hurtful environment.

Wolf, Master’s degree in what?

Wolf: In your estimation, how much more are you earning today given the Master’s you possess, than had you only had a Bachelor’s.

AAQ: Most CEOs and very many business owners (in addition to lawyers, as you noted) are tied down to engaging in their employment or business for an inordinate number of hours every day or week.

Most Uber drivers, on the other hand, have great flexibility in the number of hours and, perhaps more importantly, which hours they work.

ujm > business owners v uber drivers

this is a great example. I think Uber drivers are always on an edge to get the new ride and not “lose time”. An Uber Talmid Chacham can sit and learn and then pick up a more profitable ride. As a business co-owner, I agree that it takes time. Still, I am working “24 hours but not in a row”. Ability to be there for the family without going and asking the boss every time is priceless. Those who started WFH lately are probably have similar feelings now.

Wolf, Master’s degree in what?

Business Administration.

The Wolf

> getting a MBA does not make you an apikores.

indeed, MBA would be a good education for a Talmid Chacham

Many of Talmidei Chachamim in Gemorah were in business. On this daf, there are two that partnered, each one contributing a bull to the working pair. Others have workers collecting figs, buying real estate, etc. It seems that T’Ch has an extra challenge – as others are looking up to him, he can not use some kulos that others do so that people will not get confused what halakha is, so they need to accept some extra losses, for example, on chol hamoed.