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Halacha requires we do what is best for each of us.
“Real doctors” with “Real” medical training used to smoke and tell us how healthy smoking was.
Before that, in the late 1800’s; “Real doctors” with “real medical training”, promoted the “healthy glow”, from radiation treatments and pills.
And I could tell you absolute horror stories, about what “real doctors” with “real medical training” have done to members of my own family with their absolute unprofessional and uncaring attitudes and incompetence.
absolute unprofessional and uncaring attitudes and incompetence.
I personally would disagree. I think it’s more a matter of arrogance combined with foolishness.
YW Moderator-80 they gave my mother medicine that aggrivated (sp) her condition, and may have (probably did) caused her to get Parkensins Disease.
Nothing but incompetence, can explain this.
Foolish is another way of saying the same thing so I think, really we are agreeing, here.
I further agree with you that they are arrogant.
Well the liberals are, and the conservatives are more careful and humble, I have found.
I never knew that Halacha allows us to inject ourselves with poison(vaccines) and kill ourselves with these meds. These doctors are taught by the pharmaceutical industry, which promotes putting chemicals into your body ,never knew the body is made up of chemicals. i would like to see how long these people last on chemicals before they realize they are killing themselves..
The Rambam was a doctor who did NOT use chemicals to improve the immune system. He used Herbs and food. These cannot be patented and you cant make a lot of money off it so the pharmaceutical industry will say they are dangerous, but the dangerous chemicals will help you (get very sick).
Yes you will die from disease if you keep on eating the way you do and dont change your lifestyle, but of course its too hard so keep on taking the meds that can kill you anyways, read the warning on the meds, it doesnt hide anything.
Chance -Why do you say vaccines are poison? Please don’t tell me the autistic bubba meisa again. Also, Big Pharm doesn’t teach med students and they don’t own any medical schools.
Here or there -While I’ll agree that about 5% of medical professionals are arrogant and incompetent, please don’t paint the rest of us that way because you fell into one of those 5%!
Health when I see that the AMA and most doctors seem so willing to force us into Obama care, it tells me they are nothing but greedy, corrupt crimionals who will lie and cheat and do anything underhanded to benifit themselves at everyone elses expense.
No those who oppose such things and are good doctors I respect.
But me or my family, have either personally experienced one horror story after another at big hospitals or I have heard first hand from someone else who has about most of them.
These two factors personal experience and their public support of communist oppression and destruction of what was once, a free country have hardly endeared the medical profession on the whole, to me.
How about the fact that they have a cure for Alzheimers and will not make it publically available or even admit it works?
They have lied about the data and make up excuses to claim it’s no good, despite the fact it worked totally in clinical trials, on half dozen or so, people they tested it on.
Just think of all those hospital beds and millions of doctors and hospitals who make collectively billions per year treating Alzheimers patients and what would happen to their industry, if all those people suddenly got well.
Hereorthere -You are missing a basic concept of Dan L’caf Z’cus. Most docs are against Obamacare. Obama was booed at the AMA convention. The leaders of the AMA were against Obamacare, but the gov. put pressure and twisted their arm to come out publically for it. They do this in other countries -where they basically force every political org. to agree with gov. policy. As far as your bad experiences, I’ve also had a few. All a human can do is make histadlus, but Hashem has the final say. But, by and large, most medical professionals are competent, good people.
Also, I don’t know what you are talking about when you say cure for Alzheimers, please fill us in -I’ve never heard of any!
eli lev,
See your doctor about high cholesterol. Any decent family physician or internal medicine physician should be able to help you. Millions of people safely take cholesterol-lowering medications many lives are being saved.
chance,
You probably are too young to remember the dreaded childhood diseases like polio and measles that maimed or killed young children by the tens of thousands. Your grandmother would likely have been willing to give up her life for an effective vaccine that would have prevented these diseases. And thanks to medical research, we have them. Unfortunately, a crooked researcher in the UK published an article in the 1990s that falsely claimed that vaccines caused autism; millions of dollars have been spent trying to verify that claim and it is now known with certainty that vaccines do not cause autism. Not vaccinating your children not only puts their lives at risk, it also puts at risk the lives of children with whom they come into contact who aren’t old enough to get the vaccines. It is an incredible embarrassment that the most publicized recent outbreaks of measles have been in religious Jewish and Muslim communities; we are supposed to be better than that.
Health I do not know that Dan L’caf Z’cus applies to professions or in politics.
If the AMA was against Obama care they should be fighting instead of giving into the armtwisting.
If you give into evil you are doing evil.
Here is another thing.
The hospitals will give illegal aliens top notch treatment absolutely free, but they will hound an American citizen like me to pay bills they can’t afford for a misdiagnosis.
There was, about 7 or 8 years ago (not sure the exact year and month), a report (I think it was in the NY Times, not sure now) that doctors had tested a new Alzheimers treatment on a handful of patients in various states of progression of the disease and possibly a few who did not have it but were at risk for it.
The treatment caused inflamation in their brains, but when the swelling went away those who had Alzheimers had a complete reversal of the disease and those who didn’t yet have it didn’t get it.
Complete reversal of symptoms and immunity from it in the future.
They stopped the testing and basically closed up shop.
The claim at the time, was supposedly that the brain inflamation was dangerous and they were worried about brain damage (they said).
My belief is that the inflammation was the sign that the treatment as working the same way a finger gets swollen when it gets smashed or burned…The swelling is the body repairing itself and getting rid of germs or dead tissue so the healthy part can regrow.
How much brain damage does someone have to worry about with a disease that is all about brain damage and always ends in death (till now)?
If you check with the Alzheimers Foundation of America (I believe that is who I emailed once) they will confirm the study, but now hedge in saying that it cured anyone, as the origional report stated.
They also claim that the brain inflammation was the reason it was supposedly stopped.
I think those doing the testing, were simply afraid of actually having a real cure, on their hands.
I should clarify and add that if those doing the testing were not the ones who pulled the plug then it must have been those who were over them, like their administrators or those who funded them.
Someone in control did not want this to get out, and ruin all those hoppitals that were raking it in from warehousing and “treating”, “hopeless incurable”, Alzheimers patients.
I was tagged by my doctor at 50, after 10 years of near or full vegetarianism. This is with being very active, relatively trim, and doing physical work, and still taking steps two at time B”H. I had a long argument with the doctor about taking the statins. Tnere is no family history of heart disease, the previous generation lived into the 80s and 90s or to 75 with lifelong untreated high blood pressure. The cholesterol is produced in the liver, and is in a chain of chemicals including coQ10. The statin interupts the chain before the coQ10 is made. I, with joints at risk NEED my coQ10, and I did not want the possible side effect of memory loss and joint pain. With attention to diet, almonds, garlic, select greens, and seeds, I knocked down my #s but not to the docs satisfaction. He stopped arguing with me, but you can only do this is the doc is younger than you and you are in way better shape, and you don’t darken his doorstep to often.
Shmos 23:25 ” va’avadtem es Hashem Elokeichem, u’verach es lahmecha v’es maimecha v’hasirosi mahala mikirbecha
I always wonder about the ‘free’ testing for heart disease and stroke and other physical ailments they offer these ‘free tests’ for.
It might be great for some people to have preventative medicine.
But what is the point, for those who might be told they are at risk, but they can’t afford the treatment?
To Charliehall: YOu are very naive to think that the vaccines actually lowered the death rate and even eradicated the disease. Sorry but that was not the case. Do some research and let me know what you have come up with.
As to anyone who is running to get theselves on meds, this is from Dr Russel blaylock, a neurosergeon, from his website:
My name is Dr. Russell Blaylock. The editors at Newsmax asked me to write you today because there are important facts you haven’t been told about cholesterol, heart disease and commonly prescribed cholesterol-reducing drugs.
Dr. Russell Blaylock
Respected Doctor,
Nutritionist
FACT: Yes, it’s true that heart disease is the #1 killer in the United States. And men over 40 are particularly vulnerable. But, who else will tell you that 50% of all strokes and heart attacks have absolutely nothing to do with elevated cholesterol levels?
Certainly not the big drug companies.
And probably not even your own doctor . . .
So why are cholesterol-reducing drugs (or statins, as they’re called) becoming as common as aspirin, with commercials running non-stop on primetime TV?
How many of the 12 million Americans now taking these drugs for their heart health understand that they are (often dangerously) treating the symptoms and not the cause of high cholesterol?
The Blaylock Wellness Report targeted this very subject. It reveals:
Why the “supposed” dangers of dietary cholesterol have been vastly exaggerated (Hint: there’s big money involved!).
How having low cholesterol is not only bad for you. . . but can be just as dangerous, if not more so, than having elevated cholesterol levels.
The real reason why your doctors know so little about nutrition, vitamins and alternative medicine . . . and who they mistakenly look to for advice (at the expense of your health).
Which vitamins and nutritional supplements provide the most solid protection for your heart and blood vessels . . . and which are just a big waste of your money.
Why cholesterol is only “bad” if it becomes oxidized . . . and how to prevent this dangerous reaction from happening in your bloodstream.
How simple changes to your diet can protect your heart . . . just as much as expensive statin drugs (and discover who doesn’t want you to have this information).
You can always go to his website, he is very knowledgeable and will make you understand what is wrong with vaccines, why they destroy the brain and how they are connected to Autism and other health problems.
I hope Health will start seeing the truth about the pharmaceutical industry.
And the trademark of a secretive statin user is that they dont eat grapefruit or its products. This is because grapefruit can mess with the delivery or concetration of the drug. The irony is, that grapefruit itself is helpful in lowering choleaterol.
Chance -We have done the research. No, we don’t believe one quack who is interested in selling whatever, so he presents regular medicine in a bad light. My challenge to you is -why don’t you do real research? If you do, you will see that science is on the side of vaccines and medications for disorders like cholesterol.
Just going to all these health/nutrition/homepathic sites doesn’t constitute REAL research.
Well , the real research is in the simponwood reports, where the pharmaceutical industry saw for themselves that the vaccines cause the neurologiccal damage, but tried to cover it up. I wouldn’t trust these people when they are trying to hide the truth so people will continue to destroy their own children.
How many meds were pulled off the market after thousands died from it. Obviously they were not safe. Wouldn’t trust them for anything since greed and scare tactics is how they play their game. Wonder which pharmaceutical industry pays you off to brainwash innocent people to believe their lies.
Wonder why these homeopath, alternative med and regular doctors dont believe in medicine either..
to me Quacks are doctors who get some pills that were made in a lab and they tell you that these chemicals will heal you. The body cannot get chemicals to do what nutrition does.
Dont you think that HAshem in his infinate wisdom made food and nutrition to heal the body, never saw anywhere that you should go to greedy pharmaceutical companies who produce chemicals that will destroy you. And of course they will tell you that it will make you better.
Chance -nobody gives me a dime. So who paid you to brainwash you?
You can get all excited and whatever, but the truth is a lot of disease can be cured or controlled by medication. It might be true that if people were nutrious in the first place, they wouldn’t have gotten sick. But, once they are sick- no natural product will cure them only medicine. If we lived in a perfect world there wouldn’t be sickness and everyone would only eat what their body needed. But, we don’t, do we? The medical science has made great strives in helping people live longer. Not that long ago, people had to retire at 65 because they didn’t live much past that. If natural products helped people much more than medicine, we wouldn’t have seen an increase in the life span. After all, natural products have been around since creation.
The first generations lived several hundred years.
Even Avroham Avinu and his family lived well over 100 years.
As things got more industrialized and further away from natural remedies, life spans got much shorter.
Now thanks to modern medicine life spans are getting longer again.
But that is no proof whatsoever that the natural remedies that were used thousands of years ago, are no good.
There is a modern saying usually applied to politics;
Follow the money.
When someone advocates for or supports anything, that has economic or political ramifications, who stands to gain from it?
Many Doctors for many years (possibly still today) were dead set against the Chiropractic approach to fixing back pain and problems.
They get much money from operations where the spine is fused together permanently reducing a persons flexibility.
Chiropractic costs far less can often fix the same problems and the patient goes away with more flexibility not less.
But the hospital does not get $3000 per day for the use of the room and the doctor does not get $50,000 (or more) for the operation, after which, he enjoys the rest of the day at the Golf Course while the patients once back at work have to work overtime (if they can get it) to spend years paying off the bill.
They market heartburn pills when simply drinking water during the meal will eliminate the heartburn before it starts.
I know from experience I used to get horrible heartburn till I started drinking more water during meals.
But again no one was ever admitted to a hospital for failing to get heartburn.
The more and longer someone is hospitalized, G-d forbid, the more the hospitals and doctors rake in the big bucks.
Follow the money….
The same is true for lawyers.
The lawmakers will never ever vote in a flat tax system and simplify everyones lives and make living cheaper while still providing plenty of tax dollars to run government, because
the lawyers make billions from all the impossble to understand and conflicting tax laws.
70% of all US Congresspeople and Senators, are lawyers.
Follow the money….
Hereorthere: Like I said, the goal of medicine is to cure. Umpteen years ago they didn’t get sick- maybe they had better nutrition. Whatever the case, this doesn’t work nowadays. Most primary care clinicians will send you first to the Chiropractor before he sends you to the surgeon. The reason they never used to send to the chiropractor was because there were plenty of cases of permanent disability/paralysis due to their care. Nowadays, they have have improved their skills. No one tells anybody to seek medical care before they have tried home care. There are plenty of books written on this subject that are accepted by mainstream medicine.
Health, I don’t know because I found an excellent Chiropractor who is also a medical doctor, and he never said the reason was that Chiropractic was so bad at one time.
Also in the 1970’s a paramadic truck rearended me and I went to a chiropractor and did not hear at that time either that doctors were afaraid of bad chiropractors.
There were and still are plentry of bad doctors too and they used to take a bad doctor and move him to some other hospital far away (like a different state) where he could start all over without any patients knowing how bad he had been at the previous hospital.
It seemed to be like Priests accused of doing certain things to some of their younger parishoners who were simply moved to another Parish.
Sure the ‘official goal’ is to cure, so how come every medicine is so full of side effects, that often the cure is worse then the disease?
How about people who have said that they lowered their cholesterol more by natural means then any medicine could do?
Are they all mistaken?
Are they lying?
HOT – I agree. The gov. should do more to get rid of the bad apple doctors. Chiropractors and alternative medicine in general, has become more accepted amongst mainstream medicine. They now have a chapter in certain medical books discussing alternative medicine- what works, what doesn’t. As far as cholesterol, the first thing the clinician does is tell you to exercise and diet (and if you want -to take any natural supplement), they only prescribe meds after this doesn’t work or the pt. refuses to make changes. Secondly, we prescribe meds on this basic theory of benefit outweighs the risk. If some individual’s reaction makes the risk outweigh the benefit, then the med is stopped.
I personally know of cases where meds were increased when they were not working and they just cused more problems and were not stopped.
Further I know of places where the “professionsals” had to be onboard with the unofficial policies of keeping people doped up no matter how bad it was for them of they would be fired in such a way that they had extremly little chances of getting those in charge of these places in any kind of legal trouble.
Besides that, it is well known, that most infections people get happen inside the hospitals, these days and there are an overwhelming number of cases where limbs were wrongly amputated
when the patient simply came in for a biopsy, or something like that.
chance,
Vaccines completely eliminated smallpox — the last case was in 1979. In 1952 there were more than 60000 cases of polio in the US with more than 3000 deaths. Then came the vaccination campaign. Today there are zero cases anywhere in the Western Hemisphere, and only a thousand a year in the rest of the world; back in 1988 there were hundreds of thousands of cases before the mass vaccination campaign went worldwide. Measles deaths worldwide have dropped from almost 900,000 a decade ago to under 200,000 today because of a mass vaccination campaign. Unfortunately, some frum Jews have been believing nonsense that people like you put out and we have had the chilul HaShem of kids in frum communities getting measles. Blood will be on your hands if any of those kids die.
HOT -I don’t know of any cases were meds were increased and they kept using it, even though they weren’t working. I don’t know of any policies official or not regarding keeping pts. “doped up”. As far as infections are concerened, you are correct, but who says that it’s the fault of the medical personnel? When a pt. or visitor comes to a hospital, they don’t come alone, they come with all their germs. And when they leave, the germs don’t leave with them. The hospitals do a good job as they can, getting rid of these germs, but it’s not foolproof. As far amputating wrong limbs and other crazy stories, the only cases I ever heard about was 1 in a million that was in the newspapers, but otherwise I never heard of any such stories.
The Frum community is one of the most well vaccinated communities in the United States.
The recent measles cases in the Orthodox community, were carried by people who were vaccinated.
hereorthere,
I happen to be an Alzheimer’s disease researcher; I’ve been an author on over twenty scientific journal articles on Alzheimer’s disease and related disorders. I regret to say that there is NO efficacious treatment that prevents or cures AD today despite millions of dollars spent by government and industry. I’ve even advised on such studies. A few drugs improve symptoms for some time but do not stop the disease progression, and they have significant side effects. The situation is very depressing, and completely different from the situation regarding high cholesterol, for which there are efficacious treatments that most people can safely take.
Trying my best,
You are thinking of the mumps cases, not the measles cases. The mumps vaccine does not provide 100% immunity (neither does actually contracting mumps). I met a Centers for Disease Control investigator who was researching the outbreak at Kiryas Joel; he reported that the Rebbe personally took his team to all the schools and clinics in order that they receive total cooperation. And indeed virtually the entire village had been vaccinated pretty much according to protocol.
The measles outbreaks were in people either not vaccinated, or not fully vaccinated:
http://www.nyc.gov/html/doh/downloads/pdf/cd/2009/09md25.pdf
Measles is one of the most contagious diseases known. It must be taken very seriously.
charliehall: Thanks for the correction. Indeed I meant the mumps cases. But it is important to note that the Frum community is well vaccinated, above the national average. I think the statistics demonstrate that the naysayers don’t have much influence within our community.
Charlie -get off “the yeshiva world” and get back to work. Everyone knows someone who is/was affected by AD.
It’s also not true about mumps. Patient zero from England was not vaccinated, even though everyone else was. The vaccine was only meant to work with “herd” immunity. Once there was a real case, that was destroyed. Maybe patient zero’s family (and people like them) should pay the companies to develop stonger vaccines.
There is a risk of a “patient zero” who singularly is unvaccinated, in any community.
Obviously if I said where and who were doping people up so unprofessionally my post would be deleted as Loshon Hara, so I cannot get away with saying it, but just because you haven’t heard of such a thing, hardly proves it is not happening.
Charliehall have you heard of the particular study about Alzheimers I am referring to that I believe tgook place in Europe perhaps about 6 years ago (when it happened is just a guess, could be longer or shorter), or so?
Also about Cholesterol I have never heard of any drugs that anyiobne can take that lower a high colesterol level down to safe levels if they are very high to start.
The best I ever heard of lower it a few points and that is the best they can do.
And for that, there are many side effects and restrictions, I have heard.
HOT – my point wasn’t that you’re lying, just that it’s not common!
HOT- we almost always lower the cholesterol with meds to within normal ranges.
Health It’s not that common because the medical establishment does not promote those solutuons at least not publically where those like me would hear about it.
If the cholesterol is so often lowered just with meds why do I hear so many people talking about how their doctor tried this and that and ‘nothing is working’?
HOT- why don’t you ask them? The pts. I’ve seen are controlled- almost every single one.
Till now, I hadn’t had any reason to question the accuracy of their stories.
But if it is at a Shabbos table as it has been sometimes in the past, I will Bli Nadir, try to remember to ask them.
Of course all I will be able to say was that someone on the internet ‘said’ it could almost always be lowered just with meds and they might say something like; “Anyone can say anything on the internet”.
If I am overhearing two people on a bus talking about it, as has happened in other cases, it will be none of my business and I do not plan on injecting myself into their conversation.
Tell them the “guy” on the net is in the medical field. Unless they are one of those few cases of genetic abnormalities it can be lowered to within normal ranges.
Sure I call tell them the guy on the net ‘said’ that, but still it is someone on the net, saying he has the inside scoop.
Health, about what you said:
You’re behind the times- they lowered the amt. of carbs on the Food Pyramid.
“Your diet or Atkin’s is dangerous”.
This is all you have to answer after not proving it, and since
even you’re Medicine/Association Minded???
To Charliehall:
First of all the measels is not dangerous at all, it just depletes the Vitamin A, So if you get the measels just add Vit A. The Medical doctors try to scare everyone into vaccinating by telling them that the kids will die.
When a baby is born They inject babies with vaccines thaT are supposed to stimulate the immune system, well, the baby has no immune system so why exactly are they injecting deadly toxins into healthy newborns?
Well, if you follow the money trail you will see that they want to make sure everyone gets into the clutches of the vaccines and tells them that these vaccines(deadly toxins) will keep them healthy. This keeps the the pharma pockets big while you are sacrificing your child. Just by the way health comes from building a good immune system, and not by injecting toxins in your system. And Dr Hilman who made many vaccines said himself that there is no vaccine that is not contaminated. Look at the SV-40 which caused cancer in the people who took them.I would not inject this into my kids.
Are YOU going to take responsibility when these kids die or get illnesses from vaccines? Dont tell me its not true, I know afew kids who died right after they were vaccinated with these deadly vaccines.
To HEALTH: Didnt know that only meds can cure, like you say,which by the way is false but is what they want you to believe. A vitamin cannot say that it cures because they will dig into the pockets of the pharmaceutical industry, because people wont medicate when a natural thing can cure.
How do you think the Rambam cured people,by running to the pharmaceutical industry and getting meds or by using natural things found in this world.
The medication will only suppress symptoms but will not cure anything, it just gets people onto more meds.
Chance -I’m not going into it with you -over and over; I don’t have the time. Shomer Pissayim Hashem. Please take out some science books from the library and maybe you can begin to understand what I’m talking about. Vitamins aren’t medicine and medicines do change the molecular problem(s).
Sam -Go to AHA’s website. They have plenty to say about a high fat diet. Let me know what you find out.
Health, this is what I wanted to say in A passion way- not mentioning names of associations etc.
I just said that you are Association minded, so the only one I will be able to convince is the readers- at least.
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