- This topic has 424 replies, 27 voices, and was last updated 12 hours, 31 minutes ago by .
-
Posts
-
fit n frum- cs was committed to an asylum a couple weeks ago so she wont answer your questions. try asking menachem
No one ever ate in the sukkah on shmini atzeres, the reason chassidim (which I am noheg) (it’s not limited to Chabad chassidim) do it is because of ספיקא דיומא whereas litvaks don’t consider it.
Okay… what??? Let’s break this down:
The Gemara (Sukkah 47) brings a machloles what should be the behavior on Shemini Atzeres in chutz laaretz, and the halacha there is:
מתיב יתבינן, ברוכי לא מברכינן
We sit in the Sukkah, but without a bracha.Rambam rules (Hilchos Sukkah 6:13): Nowadays that we have two days of Yomtov, we sit in the Sukkah for eight days. On Shemini Atzeres we sit in the Sukkah but don’t make a brocha.
Shulchan Aruch (OC 668): In chutz laaretz we eat in the Sukkah by night and by day due to sefeika d’yoma, but don’t make a brocha.
Tur rules the same, but adds: “Some have a custom to eat outside of the Sukkah at night and in the Sukkah by day – ואינו מנהג.”
Mishna Berura: The custom on Shemini Atzeres is to leave the Sukkah after the day meal, but if one wants to eat again, even bein hashmashos, it must be in the Sukkah.
Despite all classic halacha being clear that one must eat in the Sukkah on Shemini Atzeres, the custom of many chassidim based on a mesorah they have from the Baal Shem Tov is to not eat in the Sukkah in Shemini Atzeres. (Chabad does *not* follow this minhag, they only eat or drink in the Sukkah until Shemini Atzeres ends.)
Of course, after this minhag developed, chassidish poskim have built some sevoros to rely on, but the fact remains that this minhag has weak halachic basis, and is done purely due to the Baal Shem Tov’s mesorah.
The Chabad minhag of not sleeping in the Sukkah, while also being due to the mesorah from the times of the Baal Hatanya – has much greater halachic basis, since it was already mentioned as an acceptable minhag in Shulchan Aruch (albeit for different reasons).
My point is not ch”v to attack the chassidish mesorah. My point is to question why you, and many others, fixate on the Chabad mesorah not to sleep in the Sukkah (which was already permitted in Shulchan Aruch) while ignoring the rest of the chassidish velt that eats outside the Sukkah on Shemini Atzeres (without basis in Shulchan Aruch).
Menachem: By Ponovezh and Satmar it was also rare and unsanctioned. Why would you phrase it as if that description is only applicable to Lubavitch?
Sorry I just read your previous thread, if we do hold ספיקא דיומא so why do chassidim gebrokt (not sure what Chabad does) on the last day of pesach?
One of the earliest sources for the chumra of gebrokts is the Alter Rebbe (Baal HaTanya). Yet he writes:
מכל מקום ביום טוב האחרון המקיל משום שמחת יום טוב לא הפסיד.Therefore, while Chabad is very careful to keep the matzah completely dry over Pesach, we eat gebrokts on Acharon Shel Pesach.
The Rebbe has an incredible sicha explaining the reason for this change on the last day according to chassidus. But one interesting point there is that a possible reason for this heter is in order to make a heker between the first days and the last day (which is only for sefeika d’yoma). The Rebbe compares this to Shemini Atzeres, when we must eat in the Sukkah, but we make a heker by not making a brocha. This is why some rule that one shouldn’t sleep in the Sukkah on Shemini Atzeres because on sleeping there is no brocha anyways, so there’s no heker (Mordechai brought in Magen Avraham).
This is not a deep question, like Menachem claimed at one point in this conversation.
This is a very simple question.
If there is a source, would you please spell it out ?
[yb to menachem]
—–Why do I say this is a theoretical philosophical question?
Because: Do you believe that Ravina and Rav Ashi were infallible? If you answer that you don’t, does that mean that in some instances you claim the the Gemara is wrong and mistaken, ch”v?
This is my point. The question of infalliblity is not necessarily tied to the question of obeying one’s rebbe.
P.S. I’m not trying to say that we listen to the Rebbe because he is an amora or something, don’t use that as a strawman. I am using the example of Gemara to show why the question of infalliblity is philosophical and unrelated to practical action.
[menachem to yb]
==================================================Your argument here is not to the point at all.
There is a huge practical difference whether your rebbi is infallible or not , as detailed at great length in previous posts.Remember , we are not talking here about an Amora where all of klal yisrael collectively and individually accepted that it’s impossible to argue on.
We are talking here about someone in our generation who is subject, like all other talmidei hahamim , to review of his peers based on torah logic and hazal.
Those other talmidei hahamim are OBLIGATED to speak up if and when they see something which is according to their view against the torah. Provided that they are higi’a le hora’a, as mentioned from rav moshe in his hakdama.Not his hidush , by the way. This has been pashut to all hahmei yisrael ledorotehem. Just that he articulated this davar pashut.
Obligated to speak up , means per force, that they are saying that your rebbi made a mistake . Even if and when they themselves happen to be a habad hasid.
Like the courageous stand the rosh yeshiva of torah vada’t, a habad hasid , but also a Jew, and hence still subject to Shulhan Aruch, took.
It ended up him costing his life , however.This is not merely “theoretical” as you are attempting to dismiss it. This is extremely practical .
Now let’s analyze this rosh yeshiva’s stance for a moment. Let’s try to see this from his viewpoint for a minute.
He definitely was a hasid and a talmid of your rebbi. Otherwise he would not be considered a habadi. I was told by habad insiders that he was one of the hashuvei habad. In the pictures of those times he is apparently seen seated quite close to your rebbi. He definitely held himself that he a lot to learn from your rebbi. Otherwise he would not come to all these farbrengens.
And nevertheless when he saw that your rebbi made a mistake he refused to be swept up with the tide .
So the question is – why can habad talmidei hahamim nowadays , not adopt a similar stance ?
We are continuing to learn from our rebbi, in all aspects.
We are still habad hasidim.But since subsequent events coupled with cold torah logic have proven our rebbi wrong in this one issue, we will respectfully say , like the age old tradition in klal yisrael,the following –
sorry but here , in our humble opinion, notwithstanding your greatness everywhere else, you made a mistake.
Not deep. Not theoretical.
Very simple.So, the question comes back . Is there a source , anywhere .
From torah logic or hazal that your rebbi is infallible ????If yes , could you or any other habad supporter , provide it ?
The worst part of the “minhag” not to sleep in the sukkah is the reasoning given which doesn’t hold water. And the fact that it essentially rejects a chelek of the mitzvah.
As far as the Rebbe’s infallibility, and I think this is what YB is saying, there’s a huge nafka mina.
Many Lubavitchers understood the the Rebbe thought he was Moshiach.
If he was fallible, the simple conclusion when he passed away would be to say that he was mistaken.
Since they didn’t accept that possibility, two possible resolutions were offered – either he hadn’t actually passed away (which is a meshugas) or that Moshiach could be from the dead. Without getting into whether that technically can be defended, it’s clearly not the mesorah in klal Yisroel and wasn’t in Chabad either until ג’ תמוז.
….. Coupled with forceful suppression of internal dissent.
Anyone who dissented or merely was suspected of dissent ,was made to pay a very heavy price….
[yb]
—
Are you alluding to the way Satmar or Ponevezh treated dissent?
[menachem]
==================I was referring to false mashiach movements , who as part of their indoctrination tactics try to play the infallibility card.
As far as I know , none of the names you mention are playing the infallibility card, none have any aspirations to occupy the seat of our Redeemer, and none are suppressing dissent with a mashiach goal in mind.
All the controversies, arguments or fights which happened there, are ,as far I understand, arguments over real estate and finances. Nothing more.
I am surprised that you do not see this obvious difference.
The purpose of this argument between us is NOT to see who can throw more dirt on our opponents and thus emerge ‘victorious’.
The purpose is to understand the operandus modi of false mashiach movements, and to salvage from them whatever is still possible.
That’s the reason of the original question – is there a source for infallibility of the habad rebbi – anywhere ? From proofs from hazal to cold torah logic ?
Can you prove that the rebbi of the habad hasidim is infallible and cannot make a mistake ?
And , in absence of such proof , can you explain why the hasidim from habad are obstinately refusing to even entertain that possibility ?
They will do themselves, HKBH and the whole of klal yisrael an IMMENSE FAVOR for taking this option into account.
Klal yisrael will then be able to stop and eliminate any and all attempts by Xtians to pull unsuspecting victims into their net , by rightfully asking : if your rebbi can come back, so why can’t mine ???
.Think about all those posts with sincerity , and let me know when you changed your mind about meshihiyut in habad.
.The worst part of the “minhag” not to sleep in the sukkah is the reasoning given which doesn’t hold water.
The Rebbe’s explanation of the reasoning came years after the minhag was established, as a possible svorah to support why Lubavitchers are so makpid on all details of Sukkah (drinking water, rain, etc.) except for sleeping in the Sukkah.
Similar to the sevaros given by the chassidish poskim for eating outside the Sukkah on Shemini Atzeres (but with the aforementioned difference that the Chabad is rooted in Shulchan Aruch).
And the fact that it essentially rejects a chelek of the mitzvah.
Chabad absolutely doesn’t reject that sleeping in the Sukkah is a chelek of the mitzvah, ch”v. The chiddush is only that they accepted the kulah of not sleeping in the Sukkah while rejecting other kulos.
Have you recently read the sicha in its entirety in the original, or are you relying on memory, or worse – hearsay? This question is addressed there.
By Ponovezh and Satmar it was also rare and unsanctioned. Why would you phrase it as if that description is only applicable to Lubavitch?
I don’t know enough about their incidents to say either way. I said it specifically about Lubavitch because (a) that’s what Yankel was addressing, and (b) that’s what I know well.
….. Coupled with forceful suppression of internal dissent.
Anyone who dissented or merely was suspected of dissent ,was made to pay a very heavy price….
[yb]
—
Are you alluding to the way Satmar or Ponevezh treated dissent?
[menachem]
==================The purpose of this argument between us is NOT to see who can throw more dirt on our opponents and thus emerge ‘victorious’.
MS,
Is it possible that the minhag of not sleeping in the sukkah is due to the fact that back in Russia, the temperature was very cold, and it may have led to life-threatening conditions if one slept in the sukkah?
This can make sense, especially when Chabad is makpid on other aspects if Sukkah, more than others.
So the question stands
Is there a source anywhere for the principle that the rebbi of the habad hasidim is infallible ?All the proponents , all the apologists, all their combined intellects
,please ….
Can you come up with something ?
.2scents,
The Mitteler Rebbe (who was appointed by his father – the baal hatanya – to lead the younger chassidim during his own lifetime) admonished the yungeleit for sleeping in the Sukkah “ווי קען מען שלאפן אין מקיפים דבינה”.
On the other hand, Lubavitchers wouldn’t have a sip of water outside the Sukkah in the pouring rain.
2cents,
100% agree
The thing is that they use it for Florida too
CA,
On the other hand, they are super makpid about sukkah related matters. While most people would eat indoors when it rains, they insist on eating in the sukkah, even if they get soaked in the rain.
I wouldn’t categorize Chabad as lenient regarding Sukkah.
This sukka controversy is as old as the hills.
The mitteler rebbi did not mean to encourage sleeping out of the sukka.
He probably meant to encourage utilizing the time in the sukka with more worthwhile spiritual pursuits than sleeping.But here we are back again to our infallibility syndrome.
Any objective observer would agree to my observation. Why would we surmise that the mitteler rebbi was mehadesh such an earth shattering hidush contradicting the pashtut of all tanna’im amora’im rishonim and poskim , i.e. that it is preferable to sleep outside of the sukah, if there is a very simple and straightforward explanation available for the mitteler rebbi’s comment ?
He probably meant to encourage utilizing the time in the sukka with more worthwhile spiritual pursuits than sleeping.
But since our rebbi , our leader , our mashiach ,
CANNOT MAKE ANY MISTAKES ,
therefore we , the collective habad hasidim , will discard the obvious in favor of the unpalatable.
Have got news for Menachem and his ilk :
1] One can be a great person , even if one makes mistakes !
And : 2] one will obtain much more admiration and respect if one can admit that a mistake was made.
Instead of mindlessly defending the indefensible.
.“I wouldn’t categorize Chabad as lenient regarding Sukkah.“
I wouldn’t either, doesnt the Gemara talk about that with a master throwing a cup of water at his servants face? Now I know that there are some opinions that say that’s only in ארץ ישראל but according to others I don’t think that’s considered being מחמיר I think that that is a shtus
Yankel, you still haven’t explained why you choose to attack the longstanding Chabad minhag to be meikel regarding sleeping the the Sukkah (as permitted in Shulchan Aruch) but don’t attack the sects of chassidim who don’t eat in the Sukkah on Shemini Atzeres (without basis in Shulchan Aruch)?
Another question: Shulchan Aruch rules that the menorah must be lit at the outer door facing reshus harabim. This is a necessary part of the mitzvah due to pirsumei nissah (thus, it’s probably more central to the mitzvah of Chanuka than sleeping is to the mitzvah of Sukkah).
Why then don’t you attack the Jews whose minhag it is to light the menorah specifically indoors, thus violating a central part of the mitzvah?
Don’t answer that it’s because this is how the minhag developed due to sakana, because that’s like excusing the minhag of sleeping outside the Sukkah due to the coldness in Russia.
I took a break from the cr and now checking in i see that this thread is still going strong. I’m totally anti-Chabad ideology of worshipping the rebbe and running around the world TRYING to make baalei teshuvas while their own kids dont have a normal, frum infastructure and learn online…But, I do have to admit that the only decent, Jewish sounding singers are mostly Lubavitche. Benny Freidman, Abraham Fried, Simcha Freidman, they are fantastic singers who sound like frum Jews singing. Unfortunately, whenever I listen to 24/6 almost all singers sound like vanilla-flavored goyish style wanna-bes. 8th day has mostly nice lyrics and tunes but their style of singing is also goyish wannabe which is a chaval because the songs themselves are very nice.
I don’t think that’s considered being מחמיר I think that that is a shtus
Coffee Addict,
YOU “don’t think”, YOU “think that this is a shtus” – who do you think you are? What kind of arrogance is this?
Did you read the teshuvos of all the great tzaddikim who praised and encouraged this chumra that you call a shtus?
Did you see how the Minchas Elazar wrote about the minhag of generation after generation of tzaddikim from talmidei haBaal Shem Tov who stay in the Sukkah even in the rain!?
Why are you so quick to attack fellow Jews and mock their behavior because you have a general resentment to their group?
You misread me , or mislead me that you misread me. Not sure.
But , please, read my post again .I did not ‘attack’ habad on the grounds that they actually don’t sleep in the sukka.
I rather questioned your rebbi’s alleged infallibilty.
Which should be called into question, when clear faulty reasoning comes to the fore.I have NO ISSUE with habad utilizing any of the available halachik kulot re suka.
And ,to let you in with a secret of mine, I [sadly] also do not have [so much of] an issue even if they use kulot which are not really available and are a product of the yetser.Halevai I would first rid myself from my own deficiencies in avodat hashem, before I point out those of good people who could very well be better than me.
But what I find impossible to understand is your rebbi’s alleged infallibility you [plural] so stubbornly cling to.
Sukka is a good example.
Any objective observer would agree to my observation. Why would we surmise that the mitteler rebbi was mehadesh such an earth shattering hidush contradicting the pashtut of all tanna’im amora’im rishonim and poskim , i.e. that it is preferable to sleep outside of the sukah, if there is a very simple and straightforward explanation available for the mitteler rebbi’s comment ?
He probably meant to encourage utilizing the time in the sukka with more worthwhile spiritual pursuits than sleeping.
But since our rebbi , our leader and our mashiach ,
CANNOT MAKE ANY MISTAKES ,
therefore we , the collective habad hasidim , will discard the obvious in favor of the unpalatable.
That’s the question . Or with Menachem’s choice of words – ‘attack’.
Hmmm …. On second thought …..
Still prefer my choice of words. Its a question , not an attack.
.Menachem , how was shabbat ?
Boston University School of Theology, 745 Commonwealth Avenue, Boston, MA 02215, USA
The recent history of the modern Chabad (Lubavitcher) movement of Hasidic Judaism provides insight into the development of early Christianity.
In both movements successful eschatological prophecies have increased belief in the leader’s authority, and there is a mixture of ‘already’ and ‘not yet’ elements.
Similar genres of literature are used to spread the good news (e.g. miracle catenae and collections of originally independent sayings).
Both leaders tacitly accepted the messianic faith of their followers but were reticent about acclaiming their messiahship directly.
The cataclysm of the Messiah’s death has led to belief in his continued existence and even resurrection.
??????????????????????????????????
.
MENACHEM TO YB ;
Another question: Shulchan Aruch rules that the menorah must be lit at the outer door facing reshus harabim. This is a necessary part of the mitzvah due to pirsumei nissah (thus, it’s probably more central to the mitzvah of Chanuka than sleeping is to the mitzvah of Sukkah).
Why then don’t you attack the Jews whose minhag it is to light the menorah specifically indoors, thus violating a central part of the mitzvah?
Don’t answer that it’s because this is how the minhag developed due to sakana, because that’s like excusing the minhag of sleeping outside the Sukkah due to the coldness in Russia.
——–Gemara in Shabbat specifically states that this takana derabanan was modified .
Not developed.
MODIFIED.
Because of sakana.
—–Hiyuv to sleep in suka is de’oraytah and was never modified. And will never be modified either.
—–
Major difference.
.MENACHEM TO YB:
Yankel, you still haven’t explained why you choose to attack the longstanding Chabad minhag to be meikel regarding sleeping the the Sukkah (as permitted in Shulchan Aruch) but don’t attack the sects of chassidim who don’t eat in the Sukkah on Shemini Atzeres (without basis in Shulchan Aruch)?
=====================
As mentioned in previous posts , I am not in the business of questioning minhagim of sects or kehillot.
Nor am I in the business of policing or ‘attacking’ chassidic , or otherwise, sects re the degree of their torah observance.The primary person who needs my policing re torah observance is myself , and there is plenty of work left, b’h.
You are missing the point ,seems like.
I questioned your rebbi’s alleged infallibilty.
Which should be called into question, when clear faulty reasoning comes to the fore.I have NO ISSUE with habad utilizing any of the available halachik kulot re suka.
And ,to let you in with a secret of mine, I [sadly] also do not have [so much of] an issue even if they use kulot which are not really available.But what I find impossible to understand is your rebbi’s alleged infallibility you [plural] so stubbornly cling to.
Sukka is a good example.
Any objective observer would agree to my observation.
Why would we surmise that the mitteler rebbi was mehadesh such an earth shattering hidush contradicting the pashtut of all tanna’im amora’im rishonim and poskim , i.e. that it is preferable [!] to sleep outside of the sukah, if there is a very simple and straightforward explanation available for the mitteler rebbi’s comment ?
He probably meant to encourage utilizing the time in the sukka with more worthwhile spiritual pursuits than sleeping.
So the original question returns with a vengeance :
Was the rebbi of menachem and his friends infallible ?
If yes , please, do you have source ?
From hazal ?
From torah logic ?
.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.