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fit n frum- cs was committed to an asylum a couple weeks ago so she wont answer your questions. try asking menachem
No one ever ate in the sukkah on shmini atzeres, the reason chassidim (which I am noheg) (it’s not limited to Chabad chassidim) do it is because of ספיקא דיומא whereas litvaks don’t consider it.
Okay… what??? Let’s break this down:
The Gemara (Sukkah 47) brings a machloles what should be the behavior on Shemini Atzeres in chutz laaretz, and the halacha there is:
מתיב יתבינן, ברוכי לא מברכינן
We sit in the Sukkah, but without a bracha.Rambam rules (Hilchos Sukkah 6:13): Nowadays that we have two days of Yomtov, we sit in the Sukkah for eight days. On Shemini Atzeres we sit in the Sukkah but don’t make a brocha.
Shulchan Aruch (OC 668): In chutz laaretz we eat in the Sukkah by night and by day due to sefeika d’yoma, but don’t make a brocha.
Tur rules the same, but adds: “Some have a custom to eat outside of the Sukkah at night and in the Sukkah by day – ואינו מנהג.”
Mishna Berura: The custom on Shemini Atzeres is to leave the Sukkah after the day meal, but if one wants to eat again, even bein hashmashos, it must be in the Sukkah.
Despite all classic halacha being clear that one must eat in the Sukkah on Shemini Atzeres, the custom of many chassidim based on a mesorah they have from the Baal Shem Tov is to not eat in the Sukkah in Shemini Atzeres. (Chabad does *not* follow this minhag, they only eat or drink in the Sukkah until Shemini Atzeres ends.)
Of course, after this minhag developed, chassidish poskim have built some sevoros to rely on, but the fact remains that this minhag has weak halachic basis, and is done purely due to the Baal Shem Tov’s mesorah.
The Chabad minhag of not sleeping in the Sukkah, while also being due to the mesorah from the times of the Baal Hatanya – has much greater halachic basis, since it was already mentioned as an acceptable minhag in Shulchan Aruch (albeit for different reasons).
My point is not ch”v to attack the chassidish mesorah. My point is to question why you, and many others, fixate on the Chabad mesorah not to sleep in the Sukkah (which was already permitted in Shulchan Aruch) while ignoring the rest of the chassidish velt that eats outside the Sukkah on Shemini Atzeres (without basis in Shulchan Aruch).
Menachem: By Ponovezh and Satmar it was also rare and unsanctioned. Why would you phrase it as if that description is only applicable to Lubavitch?
Sorry I just read your previous thread, if we do hold ספיקא דיומא so why do chassidim gebrokt (not sure what Chabad does) on the last day of pesach?
One of the earliest sources for the chumra of gebrokts is the Alter Rebbe (Baal HaTanya). Yet he writes:
מכל מקום ביום טוב האחרון המקיל משום שמחת יום טוב לא הפסיד.Therefore, while Chabad is very careful to keep the matzah completely dry over Pesach, we eat gebrokts on Acharon Shel Pesach.
The Rebbe has an incredible sicha explaining the reason for this change on the last day according to chassidus. But one interesting point there is that a possible reason for this heter is in order to make a heker between the first days and the last day (which is only for sefeika d’yoma). The Rebbe compares this to Shemini Atzeres, when we must eat in the Sukkah, but we make a heker by not making a brocha. This is why some rule that one shouldn’t sleep in the Sukkah on Shemini Atzeres because on sleeping there is no brocha anyways, so there’s no heker (Mordechai brought in Magen Avraham).
This is not a deep question, like Menachem claimed at one point in this conversation.
This is a very simple question.
If there is a source, would you please spell it out ?
[yb to menachem]
—–Why do I say this is a theoretical philosophical question?
Because: Do you believe that Ravina and Rav Ashi were infallible? If you answer that you don’t, does that mean that in some instances you claim the the Gemara is wrong and mistaken, ch”v?
This is my point. The question of infalliblity is not necessarily tied to the question of obeying one’s rebbe.
P.S. I’m not trying to say that we listen to the Rebbe because he is an amora or something, don’t use that as a strawman. I am using the example of Gemara to show why the question of infalliblity is philosophical and unrelated to practical action.
[menachem to yb]
==================================================Your argument here is not to the point at all.
There is a huge practical difference whether your rebbi is infallible or not , as detailed at great length in previous posts.Remember , we are not talking here about an Amora where all of klal yisrael collectively and individually accepted that it’s impossible to argue on.
We are talking here about someone in our generation who is subject, like all other talmidei hahamim , to review of his peers based on torah logic and hazal.
Those other talmidei hahamim are OBLIGATED to speak up if and when they see something which is according to their view against the torah. Provided that they are higi’a le hora’a, as mentioned from rav moshe in his hakdama.Not his hidush , by the way. This has been pashut to all hahmei yisrael ledorotehem. Just that he articulated this davar pashut.
Obligated to speak up , means per force, that they are saying that your rebbi made a mistake . Even if and when they themselves happen to be a habad hasid.
Like the courageous stand the rosh yeshiva of torah vada’t, a habad hasid , but also a Jew, and hence still subject to Shulhan Aruch, took.
It ended up him costing his life , however.This is not merely “theoretical” as you are attempting to dismiss it. This is extremely practical .
Now let’s analyze this rosh yeshiva’s stance for a moment. Let’s try to see this from his viewpoint for a minute.
He definitely was a hasid and a talmid of your rebbi. Otherwise he would not be considered a habadi. I was told by habad insiders that he was one of the hashuvei habad. In the pictures of those times he is apparently seen seated quite close to your rebbi. He definitely held himself that he a lot to learn from your rebbi. Otherwise he would not come to all these farbrengens.
And nevertheless when he saw that your rebbi made a mistake he refused to be swept up with the tide .
So the question is – why can habad talmidei hahamim nowadays , not adopt a similar stance ?
We are continuing to learn from our rebbi, in all aspects.
We are still habad hasidim.But since subsequent events coupled with cold torah logic have proven our rebbi wrong in this one issue, we will respectfully say , like the age old tradition in klal yisrael,the following –
sorry but here , in our humble opinion, notwithstanding your greatness everywhere else, you made a mistake.
Not deep. Not theoretical.
Very simple.So, the question comes back . Is there a source , anywhere .
From torah logic or hazal that your rebbi is infallible ????If yes , could you or any other habad supporter , provide it ?
The worst part of the “minhag” not to sleep in the sukkah is the reasoning given which doesn’t hold water. And the fact that it essentially rejects a chelek of the mitzvah.
As far as the Rebbe’s infallibility, and I think this is what YB is saying, there’s a huge nafka mina.
Many Lubavitchers understood the the Rebbe thought he was Moshiach.
If he was fallible, the simple conclusion when he passed away would be to say that he was mistaken.
Since they didn’t accept that possibility, two possible resolutions were offered – either he hadn’t actually passed away (which is a meshugas) or that Moshiach could be from the dead. Without getting into whether that technically can be defended, it’s clearly not the mesorah in klal Yisroel and wasn’t in Chabad either until ג’ תמוז.
….. Coupled with forceful suppression of internal dissent.
Anyone who dissented or merely was suspected of dissent ,was made to pay a very heavy price….
[yb]
—
Are you alluding to the way Satmar or Ponevezh treated dissent?
[menachem]
==================I was referring to false mashiach movements , who as part of their indoctrination tactics try to play the infallibility card.
As far as I know , none of the names you mention are playing the infallibility card, none have any aspirations to occupy the seat of our Redeemer, and none are suppressing dissent with a mashiach goal in mind.
All the controversies, arguments or fights which happened there, are ,as far I understand, arguments over real estate and finances. Nothing more.
I am surprised that you do not see this obvious difference.
The purpose of this argument between us is NOT to see who can throw more dirt on our opponents and thus emerge ‘victorious’.
The purpose is to understand the operandus modi of false mashiach movements, and to salvage from them whatever is still possible.
That’s the reason of the original question – is there a source for infallibility of the habad rebbi – anywhere ? From proofs from hazal to cold torah logic ?
Can you prove that the rebbi of the habad hasidim is infallible and cannot make a mistake ?
And , in absence of such proof , can you explain why the hasidim from habad are obstinately refusing to even entertain that possibility ?
They will do themselves, HKBH and the whole of klal yisrael an IMMENSE FAVOR for taking this option into account.
Klal yisrael will then be able to stop and eliminate any and all attempts by Xtians to pull unsuspecting victims into their net , by rightfully asking : if your rebbi can come back, so why can’t mine ???
.Think about all those posts with sincerity , and let me know when you changed your mind about meshihiyut in habad.
.The worst part of the “minhag” not to sleep in the sukkah is the reasoning given which doesn’t hold water.
The Rebbe’s explanation of the reasoning came years after the minhag was established, as a possible svorah to support why Lubavitchers are so makpid on all details of Sukkah (drinking water, rain, etc.) except for sleeping in the Sukkah.
Similar to the sevaros given by the chassidish poskim for eating outside the Sukkah on Shemini Atzeres (but with the aforementioned difference that the Chabad is rooted in Shulchan Aruch).
And the fact that it essentially rejects a chelek of the mitzvah.
Chabad absolutely doesn’t reject that sleeping in the Sukkah is a chelek of the mitzvah, ch”v. The chiddush is only that they accepted the kulah of not sleeping in the Sukkah while rejecting other kulos.
Have you recently read the sicha in its entirety in the original, or are you relying on memory, or worse – hearsay? This question is addressed there.
By Ponovezh and Satmar it was also rare and unsanctioned. Why would you phrase it as if that description is only applicable to Lubavitch?
I don’t know enough about their incidents to say either way. I said it specifically about Lubavitch because (a) that’s what Yankel was addressing, and (b) that’s what I know well.
….. Coupled with forceful suppression of internal dissent.
Anyone who dissented or merely was suspected of dissent ,was made to pay a very heavy price….
[yb]
—
Are you alluding to the way Satmar or Ponevezh treated dissent?
[menachem]
==================The purpose of this argument between us is NOT to see who can throw more dirt on our opponents and thus emerge ‘victorious’.
MS,
Is it possible that the minhag of not sleeping in the sukkah is due to the fact that back in Russia, the temperature was very cold, and it may have led to life-threatening conditions if one slept in the sukkah?
This can make sense, especially when Chabad is makpid on other aspects if Sukkah, more than others.
So the question stands
Is there a source anywhere for the principle that the rebbi of the habad hasidim is infallible ?All the proponents , all the apologists, all their combined intellects
,please ….
Can you come up with something ?
.2scents,
The Mitteler Rebbe (who was appointed by his father – the baal hatanya – to lead the younger chassidim during his own lifetime) admonished the yungeleit for sleeping in the Sukkah “ווי קען מען שלאפן אין מקיפים דבינה”.
On the other hand, Lubavitchers wouldn’t have a sip of water outside the Sukkah in the pouring rain.
2cents,
100% agree
The thing is that they use it for Florida too
CA,
On the other hand, they are super makpid about sukkah related matters. While most people would eat indoors when it rains, they insist on eating in the sukkah, even if they get soaked in the rain.
I wouldn’t categorize Chabad as lenient regarding Sukkah.
This sukka controversy is as old as the hills.
The mitteler rebbi did not mean to encourage sleeping out of the sukka.
He probably meant to encourage utilizing the time in the sukka with more worthwhile spiritual pursuits than sleeping.But here we are back again to our infallibility syndrome.
Any objective observer would agree to my observation. Why would we surmise that the mitteler rebbi was mehadesh such an earth shattering hidush contradicting the pashtut of all tanna’im amora’im rishonim and poskim , i.e. that it is preferable to sleep outside of the sukah, if there is a very simple and straightforward explanation available for the mitteler rebbi’s comment ?
He probably meant to encourage utilizing the time in the sukka with more worthwhile spiritual pursuits than sleeping.
But since our rebbi , our leader , our mashiach ,
CANNOT MAKE ANY MISTAKES ,
therefore we , the collective habad hasidim , will discard the obvious in favor of the unpalatable.
Have got news for Menachem and his ilk :
1] One can be a great person , even if one makes mistakes !
And : 2] one will obtain much more admiration and respect if one can admit that a mistake was made.
Instead of mindlessly defending the indefensible.
.“I wouldn’t categorize Chabad as lenient regarding Sukkah.“
I wouldn’t either, doesnt the Gemara talk about that with a master throwing a cup of water at his servants face? Now I know that there are some opinions that say that’s only in ארץ ישראל but according to others I don’t think that’s considered being מחמיר I think that that is a shtus
Yankel, you still haven’t explained why you choose to attack the longstanding Chabad minhag to be meikel regarding sleeping the the Sukkah (as permitted in Shulchan Aruch) but don’t attack the sects of chassidim who don’t eat in the Sukkah on Shemini Atzeres (without basis in Shulchan Aruch)?
Another question: Shulchan Aruch rules that the menorah must be lit at the outer door facing reshus harabim. This is a necessary part of the mitzvah due to pirsumei nissah (thus, it’s probably more central to the mitzvah of Chanuka than sleeping is to the mitzvah of Sukkah).
Why then don’t you attack the Jews whose minhag it is to light the menorah specifically indoors, thus violating a central part of the mitzvah?
Don’t answer that it’s because this is how the minhag developed due to sakana, because that’s like excusing the minhag of sleeping outside the Sukkah due to the coldness in Russia.
I took a break from the cr and now checking in i see that this thread is still going strong. I’m totally anti-Chabad ideology of worshipping the rebbe and running around the world TRYING to make baalei teshuvas while their own kids dont have a normal, frum infastructure and learn online…But, I do have to admit that the only decent, Jewish sounding singers are mostly Lubavitche. Benny Freidman, Abraham Fried, Simcha Freidman, they are fantastic singers who sound like frum Jews singing. Unfortunately, whenever I listen to 24/6 almost all singers sound like vanilla-flavored goyish style wanna-bes. 8th day has mostly nice lyrics and tunes but their style of singing is also goyish wannabe which is a chaval because the songs themselves are very nice.
I don’t think that’s considered being מחמיר I think that that is a shtus
Coffee Addict,
YOU “don’t think”, YOU “think that this is a shtus” – who do you think you are? What kind of arrogance is this?
Did you read the teshuvos of all the great tzaddikim who praised and encouraged this chumra that you call a shtus?
Did you see how the Minchas Elazar wrote about the minhag of generation after generation of tzaddikim from talmidei haBaal Shem Tov who stay in the Sukkah even in the rain!?
Why are you so quick to attack fellow Jews and mock their behavior because you have a general resentment to their group?
You misread me , or mislead me that you misread me. Not sure.
But , please, read my post again .I did not ‘attack’ habad on the grounds that they actually don’t sleep in the sukka.
I rather questioned your rebbi’s alleged infallibilty.
Which should be called into question, when clear faulty reasoning comes to the fore.I have NO ISSUE with habad utilizing any of the available halachik kulot re suka.
And ,to let you in with a secret of mine, I [sadly] also do not have [so much of] an issue even if they use kulot which are not really available and are a product of the yetser.Halevai I would first rid myself from my own deficiencies in avodat hashem, before I point out those of good people who could very well be better than me.
But what I find impossible to understand is your rebbi’s alleged infallibility you [plural] so stubbornly cling to.
Sukka is a good example.
Any objective observer would agree to my observation. Why would we surmise that the mitteler rebbi was mehadesh such an earth shattering hidush contradicting the pashtut of all tanna’im amora’im rishonim and poskim , i.e. that it is preferable to sleep outside of the sukah, if there is a very simple and straightforward explanation available for the mitteler rebbi’s comment ?
He probably meant to encourage utilizing the time in the sukka with more worthwhile spiritual pursuits than sleeping.
But since our rebbi , our leader and our mashiach ,
CANNOT MAKE ANY MISTAKES ,
therefore we , the collective habad hasidim , will discard the obvious in favor of the unpalatable.
That’s the question . Or with Menachem’s choice of words – ‘attack’.
Hmmm …. On second thought …..
Still prefer my choice of words. Its a question , not an attack.
.Menachem , how was shabbat ?
Boston University School of Theology, 745 Commonwealth Avenue, Boston, MA 02215, USA
The recent history of the modern Chabad (Lubavitcher) movement of Hasidic Judaism provides insight into the development of early Christianity.
In both movements successful eschatological prophecies have increased belief in the leader’s authority, and there is a mixture of ‘already’ and ‘not yet’ elements.
Similar genres of literature are used to spread the good news (e.g. miracle catenae and collections of originally independent sayings).
Both leaders tacitly accepted the messianic faith of their followers but were reticent about acclaiming their messiahship directly.
The cataclysm of the Messiah’s death has led to belief in his continued existence and even resurrection.
??????????????????????????????????
.
MENACHEM TO YB ;
Another question: Shulchan Aruch rules that the menorah must be lit at the outer door facing reshus harabim. This is a necessary part of the mitzvah due to pirsumei nissah (thus, it’s probably more central to the mitzvah of Chanuka than sleeping is to the mitzvah of Sukkah).
Why then don’t you attack the Jews whose minhag it is to light the menorah specifically indoors, thus violating a central part of the mitzvah?
Don’t answer that it’s because this is how the minhag developed due to sakana, because that’s like excusing the minhag of sleeping outside the Sukkah due to the coldness in Russia.
——–Gemara in Shabbat specifically states that this takana derabanan was modified .
Not developed.
MODIFIED.
Because of sakana.
—–Hiyuv to sleep in suka is de’oraytah and was never modified. And will never be modified either.
—–
Major difference.
.MENACHEM TO YB:
Yankel, you still haven’t explained why you choose to attack the longstanding Chabad minhag to be meikel regarding sleeping the the Sukkah (as permitted in Shulchan Aruch) but don’t attack the sects of chassidim who don’t eat in the Sukkah on Shemini Atzeres (without basis in Shulchan Aruch)?
=====================
As mentioned in previous posts , I am not in the business of questioning minhagim of sects or kehillot.
Nor am I in the business of policing or ‘attacking’ chassidic , or otherwise, sects re the degree of their torah observance.The primary person who needs my policing re torah observance is myself , and there is plenty of work left, b’h.
You are missing the point ,seems like.
I questioned your rebbi’s alleged infallibilty.
Which should be called into question, when clear faulty reasoning comes to the fore.I have NO ISSUE with habad utilizing any of the available halachik kulot re suka.
And ,to let you in with a secret of mine, I [sadly] also do not have [so much of] an issue even if they use kulot which are not really available.But what I find impossible to understand is your rebbi’s alleged infallibility you [plural] so stubbornly cling to.
Sukka is a good example.
Any objective observer would agree to my observation.
Why would we surmise that the mitteler rebbi was mehadesh such an earth shattering hidush contradicting the pashtut of all tanna’im amora’im rishonim and poskim , i.e. that it is preferable [!] to sleep outside of the sukah, if there is a very simple and straightforward explanation available for the mitteler rebbi’s comment ?
He probably meant to encourage utilizing the time in the sukka with more worthwhile spiritual pursuits than sleeping.
So the original question returns with a vengeance :
Was the rebbi of menachem and his friends infallible ?
If yes , please, do you have source ?
From hazal ?
From torah logic ?
.Boston University School of Theology, 745 Commonwealth Avenue, Boston, MA 02215, USA
“The recent history of the modern Chabad (Lubavitcher) movement of Hasidic Judaism provides insight into the development of early Christianity ….”
—–
The Question is – Did the late rebbi of the habad hassidim take this into account when he embarked on his mashiach frenzy campaign , or is this an unforeseen consequence of their mashiach frenzy ?Yankel, you still haven’t explained why you attack the minhag of not sleeping in Sukkah, but not the minhag of not eating in the Sukkah on Shmini Atzeres and lighting menorah inside the house – both of which are seemingly against halacha.
Your only answer was because it was the Rebbe who explained the minhag (which has been in Chabad for generations) and you have your own interpretation of what the Mitteler Rebbe said (which doesn’t at all fit with his original words, which I doubt you’ve seen).
You don’t mind someone unquestionably following his rov or rebbe regarding Shmini Atzeres and Chanukah, you only have a problem with following the Lubavitcher Rebbe.
Menachem , you still haven’t explained why you totally ignore my post re the clear difference between lighting menorah inside the house which was MODIFIED by hazal themselves ,as per clear gemara in shabbat without any mahloket – OBVIOUSLY NOT AT ALL AGAINST HALACHA .
as opposed to
supposed preferability of sleeping outside of the sukkah in all circumstances which would necessitate either a modification of din min hatorah or some earth shattering purim torah.
===========
There was no minhag in habad for generations to prefer sleeping out of the sukah even after all available standard halachik kulot are exhausted.
I knew a child of old habad hasidim who, way back, immigrated out of Russia who testified about their fathers stubborn insistence to sleep in the sukkah even in the face of extensive hardship.
I do not believe that there was an undocumented minhag in habad going back for generations, as you portray it.============
Yes , I read the mitteler rebbi’s words . Any normal talmid haham would explain his words the way I did.
Even you would.
If your “infallible” rebbi would not have provided his own explanation, that is.
===========
You don’t mind someone unquestionably following his rov or rebbe regarding Shmini Atzeres and Chanukah, you only have a problem with following the Lubavitcher Rebbe.
===I have a problem with your rebbi’s alleged infallibility. Coupled with blatantly false aspirations to messiahship.
That’s all .
After numerous posts asking for a source of this supposed infallibility, I am back at square one.
Nothing, nada , zero , zilch, efes.
No source.
…..
.
yankel > The recent history of the modern Chabad (Lubavitcher) movement of Hasidic Judaism provides insight into the development of early Christianity.
interesting. I also saw a paper from Harvard: Modern yeshivas provide insights into development of Qumran communities who isolated themselves from other Jews in the caves and left numerous writings mostly similar to traditional Judaism.
“YOU “don’t think”, YOU “think that this is a shtus” – who do you think you are? What kind of arrogance is this?
Did you read the teshuvos of all the great tzaddikim who praised and encouraged this chumra that you call a shtus?
Did you see how the Minchas Elazar wrote about the minhag of generation after generation of tzaddikim from talmidei haBaal Shem Tov who stay in the Sukkah even in the rain!?
Why are you so quick to attack fellow Jews and mock their behavior because you have a general resentment to their group?“
The Gemara calls someone that sits in the sukkah in the rain a חסיד שוטה like a servant that gets splashed in the face by his master and is told I don’t want your servitude
But I digress
The Gemara calls someone that sits in the sukkah in the rain a חסיד שוטה like a servant that gets splashed in the face by his master and is told I don’t want your servitude
I know that Gemara, and all the poskim I mentioned knew that Gemara.
So because of a Gemara you learned in cheder, you’re ready to mock the minhag of many great tzaddikim and poskim going back to the Baal Shem Tov.
@aaq
aaq to yb:
yankel > The recent history of the modern Chabad (Lubavitcher) movement of Hasidic Judaism provides insight into the development of early Christianity.
—
interesting. I also saw a paper from Harvard: Modern yeshivas provide insights into development of Qumran communities who isolated themselves from other Jews in the caves and left numerous writings mostly similar to traditional Judaism.
———————————————–There is no imminent danger of Qumran communities using modern yeshivas to mass convert naive yehudim to their false religion.
But there definitely is a clear and present danger of xtian missionaries attempting to use the obvious habad – early xtian similarities to mass convert naive yehudim to their false religion.
.That’s why this Boston university paper should start the alarm bells ringing.
That’s why we should seriously reconsider the supposed ‘infallibility’ of the late leader of the habad hasidim.
That’s why we should not let any of the good that habad does, obscure the dangerous slippery slope they have started out on.
That’s why we should not merely stand by and observe the ‘mashiach foolishness’ and dismiss it as if this was nothing more than some childish prank in a playground.
That’s why we should applaud and support the courageous author of ‘harebi melech hamashiach’ , R Dovid Berger.
.Chabad absolutely doesn’t reject that sleeping in the Sukkah is a chelek of the mitzvah, ch”v. The chiddush is only that they accepted the kulah of not sleeping in the Sukkah
What kulah?
relying on memory
Yes
I don’t know what the Mittler Rebbe said or meant, but if it’s as you explained, it’s not merely that Chabad accepted some type of kulah, but rather, it became a bad thing to sleep in the sukkah, which is backwards.
“So because of a Gemara you learned in cheder, you’re ready to mock the minhag of many great tzaddikim and poskim going back to the Baal Shem Tov.“
The onus is on them to explain the Gemara, not the other way around
And to those that say it was written regarding ארץ ישראל only, the Gemara (which was written in בבל) doesn’t say that and additionally I wouldn’t be surprised if Lubavitchers in ארץ ישראל still sit in the rain
Additionally I don’t know the circumstances of those Rebbes who sat in the rain, maybe it was first day of yon tov where one still has to make kiddush so once that’s done they said now that the mitzvah is over I want to sit in the sukkah for a different reason that isn’t because of the mitzvah
it’s not merely that Chabad accepted some type of kulah, but rather, it became a bad thing to sleep in the sukkah, which is backwards.
No, it’s not a bad thing, as the Rebbe wrote to those who had a minhag to sleep in Sukkah to keep their minhag.
Is it backwards that people davka don’t eat in the Sukkah on Shemini Atzeres? Or that people davka light menorah indoors? Both of which are seemingly against halacha?
DY,
The issue with sleeping in the sukkah has nothing to do with modern-day Chabad. If your point is that the later Rebbes should have made changes to their minhag, that is a separate discussion.
Nitpicking minhagim that originated many years ago and have the backing of numerous widely accepted gadolim dilutes the discussion about modern-day Chabad.
I’m not Chabad, but I know they don’t take mitzvos lightly, especially those related to the sukkah. However, I have no idea why they are meikel when it comes to sleeping in the sukkah.
Almost every Chassidus has minhagim that are not in line with halacha. They had gedolim who paskened otherwise, and for them, this is their halacha. This includes D’oiraisus, let alone something like sleeping in the sukkah.
But there definitely is a clear and present danger of xtian missionaries attempting to use the obvious habad – early xtian similarities to mass convert naive yehudim to their false religion.
…That’s why we should applaud and support the courageous author of ‘harebi melech hamashiach’ , R Dovid Berger.
A) The number one tool missionaries use is Tanach. Maybe start by canceling that instead.
B) What you fail to realize is that most of these missionaries who draw comparisons between Chabad and Christianity are parroting Berger. His book — full of distortions and half-truths — is their primary source. So if you’re afraid of missionaries weaponizing misinterpretations of Chabad ideas like they from Tanach — you have Berger to blame.
No, it’s not a bad thing
Then why did the Mittler Rebbe (supposedly) give mussar for sleeping in the sukkah?
Is it backwards that people davka don’t eat in the Sukkah on Shemini Atzeres?
It’s k’neged Halacha, but it’s not backwards.
The issue with sleeping in the sukkah has nothing to do with modern-day Chabad
I’m not old enough to know, but not everyone agrees with that.
If they didn’t sleep in the sukkah in Europe because it was too cold, that make sense, but making it into an inyan davka not to (even when it’s nice weather) is backwards.
This includes D’oiraisus, let alone something like sleeping in the sukkah.
Sleeping in the sukkah is D’oraisa
The onus is on them to explain the Gemara, not the other way around
What’s this supposed to mean? I’ll just repeat what I wrote before: “All the poskim I mentioned knew that Gemara.”
Are you trying to tell us that your mockery is indeed not directed at Chabad, but all chassidim at large? The Minchas Elazar, Divrei Chaim, etc.? So why don’t you start a thread like that.
Additionally I don’t know the circumstances of those Rebbes who sat in the rain
Ah, so you don’t know. You mock Chabad for a widespread chassidish minhag of talmidei habaal shem tov and onward, explained by giants such as the Minchas Elazar and others.
And when confronted, you admit that you know nothing about this minhag. All you know is: mock first, question after.MENACHEM TO YB:
What you fail to realize is that most of these missionaries who draw comparisons between Chabad and Christianity are parroting Berger. His book — full of distortions and half-truths — is their primary source. So if you’re afraid of missionaries weaponizing misinterpretations of Chabad ideas like they from Tanach — you have Berger to blame.
======Missionaries do not need and are not waiting for Berger to point out the similarities between habad messianism and early xtianity.
Those similarities are as obvious as sunlight during the day.
Anyone sees that.I myself was confronted by a Protestant Pastor in 1993 , long before Berger, re the similarities between habad then [!] and early xtianity.
I myself overheard xtian visitors to an outdoor habad event featuring their rebbi , when he was still “alive” comparing him to their ‘saviour’.
Again, long before Berger.
—-The horse before the cart is not Berger.
It is habad’s crooked theology , itself.
Berger is merely following.
From a respectable distance.
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Menachem , it is time to pause , take a deep breath, reflect and think ….
.MENACHEM TO YB:
The number one tool missionaries use is Tanach. Maybe start by canceling that instead.
====Lol.
We want to counter missionaries . We have a choice between canceling habad mashiach foolishness or canceling tanach.
Menachem proposes to cancel tanach and preserve habad’s pretsel mashiach theology ….
.
Tanach is the clear Word of God , accepted as such by ONE HUNDRED PERCENT OF ERLICHE YEHUDIM FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS.Mashiach pretsel theology is REJECTED BY 99 % of erliche yehudim even during the few miserly decades it exists.
Imagine an ant comparing itself to the Empire State Building ….
.What I cannot understand is that Gemara Shabbat clearly modifies takanat derabanan of ner hanuka to put it al shulhano inside.
And people keep on ignoring this clear gemara and [mis]using it to advocate for a purim torah that it is preferable [!] to sleep out of the suka even when all kulot in halacha are exhausted.Not cold.
Not married.
Etc.And on top of that, they also want us to accept his source-less [!] infallibility …..
And to accept that their mashiach foolishness is equivalent to tanach ……
.There was no minhag in habad for generations to prefer sleeping out of the sukah even after all available standard halachik kulot are exhausted.
I personally knew a child of old habad hasidim who, way back, immigrated out of Russia who testified to me about their fathers stubborn insistence to sleep in the sukkah even in the face of extensive hardship.
.Here is the point where @QWERTY is supposed to swoop in and say “you see, menachem clearly said to cancel tanach, lubavitchers are the worst”
Don’t we all miss him?
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