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I’m sorry that to you, Moshiach is xtian.
That’s a distortion of what he said.
Because you have a distorted view of what Moshiach is
I wrote in about my S.T. challenges, and sent it in to the random online iggros
Do you think this is normal?
“like every other frum Yid”???
and think he’s some kind of Elvis (whatever that means…)
It means absolutely nothing because it’s a distortion of yours
DY:
“It sounds like you’re afraid to explain in plain English….
I wonder why…Not singing Yechi about a person who was niftar is actually normal and sane.”
As you can see, I’m not afraid. Not everything is suited to this forum. I totally get you don’t understand Yechi. You think Trump runs America and The Rebbe doesn’t run anything. You have no idea what Moshiach and Geula are all about. If you really want to get educated, start with the basics. You will never understand yechi otherwise. It’s much more advanced. I can give you sefarim recommendations if desired. (And understanding Yechi is not important. But knowledge of Moshiach and Geula is necessary).
YB:
“But Mashiach dying and coming back IS definitely xtian.”
Obviously you’re ignorant of the medrash that depict this scenario as I posted on our other conversation some time ago to avira. In addition it’s in the classic sources that certain tzaddikim will have techias hameisim early. If I finish all the tasks needed to bring Moshiach (especially if I have 9 other yidden with me), it’s entirely plausible that I’ll go to the Ohel of the Rebbe and demand that he lead the Geula as we’re already all living in Geula mode spiritually. And it will happen.
Another scenario is that a certain person will be “Moshiachs assistant” and lead the Geula here on Earth using all the tasks and power left in our instruction manual. In fact this person is already on the planet in the wake of the tragedy of October 7. In that case, The Rebbe would be the honorary Golus Moshiach and the Assistant who led the Geula physically will be crowned Moshiach. The Rebbe hinted at this option in the sicha regarding Kaisar and Palgei Kaiser. Look it up if you wish.
The Rebbe, an absolute tzaddik, referred to the Frierdiker Rebbe as Moshiach and said many times, hekitzu vrannu shochvei afar, vhu bsocham, vhu yigalenu.
“And your [plural] stupid propagation of your discredited mashiach coming back , which is against YOUR [plural] OWN publicly stated mass- and multiyear position, is being used by xtians in their dangerous missionary work , shmadding innocent nefashot forever.”
The xtians came from us so they espouse many Jewish concepts. Just saying. I actually saved at least one one person from xtianity. Currently helping another. Don’t be foolish.
“All for a bit narishe kavod – Just to be able to say : My Leader is greater than everyone else. My Torah is deeper than everyone else’s.”
Moshiach is in fact greater than everyone else. Although everyone has their own maala. It’s a fact or it’s not. I think any rational person will see The Rebbe had the greatest influence from the entire Jewish people on every community and even goyim. You can watch people s stories on Living Torah or visit the ohel. And I won’t take offence if you think someone else is greater. Like I said I found my first mussar author that I find inspiring, and I’m excited to know about the ruach hakodesh of the Yanuka, and the Modzitzer Rebbe. I’d love to learn about more greats in our people. And even though Moshe was tops for his generation, Miriam, Aharon, Nachshon, Calev and todays generation outshine him in our own unique way.
CA
“No we don’t believe moshiach is Elvis, Elvis died (some people don’t think so) but what we believe is that if moshiach was going to come from the dead (which is highly unlikely) he could be from the thousands of tzaddikim that lived before the rebbe”
That does have a base in Torah, although we hold (like the Rambam) that the person suited to be Moshiach is the person who did the work to get his generation to be the one to tip the scales and bring Geula. And in that sense, The Rebbe is very much alive. Yechi HaMelech:)!
“It’s like this. Remember Bnei Yisrael protested that the Torah is for everyone and shouldn’t be just for shevet Levi? So as Rebbetzin Vechter put it when her husband revealed to her that he was teaching her TheRebbes Torah, “If this is what I thought I’d go to Gehennom for learning, it’s worth it!!””
Tell that to any missionary and he laugh you out of town because that is his reasoning too
CA
“Tell that to any missionary and he laugh you out of town because that is his reasoning too”I guess you don’t believe in G-d as the missionary claims he does too
YB:
“1] Can you point to where in tanya it says that a tsaddik of Tanya is INFALLIBLE ?”
A tzaddik is totally in line with Hashem’s Ratzon, so his “mistakes” don’t come from yetzer hara but are also directed by Hashem (remember Aharons argument to the malach hamoves?) There is a rare scenario of a tzaddik not advancing in his avodas Hashem, and slipping to do an aveira (like Yochanan Kohen Gadol), but it would be obvious as the Posuk states ba zadon vayavo kalon.
For a regular YB to think HE knows, or anyone that didn’t top The Rebbe in yiras shomayim, knows, that The Rebbe made a mistake, because He knows better, is utter foolishness, but just arrogance and bizui TC. I hope that clarifies.
“2] Can you point to any source acceptable to all hugim in Yahadut that your leader qualified as a Tsaddiq of Tanya ?”
Is there any public widely known instance of The Rebbe doing any aveira? Those who know The Rebbe say not… besides for the sheer holiness etc
“3] Is the concept of ‘tsadiq of Tanyah’ widely accepted in Yahadut – outside of the hasidi circles ?”
The Alter Rebbe is widely accepted. How many tzaddikim of Tanya there are today is a different question which I cannot answer. I keep my nose out for them.
“4] Is the tsaddiq of Tanya explanation the only available one to explain the relevant ma’amarei hazal ?”
Not sure what you mean. And even if it is, it answers.
“5] If there exist other explanations , how are they more deficient in actually explaining the relevant ma’amarei hazal when compared to the Tanya’s [besides that they will not serve the habad cause]”
No one is making you become Chabad. As for me, it’s my honour and privilege.
“6] Why do you employ the condescending attitude that it is the opposite side who has ‘go and learn’ ?
Maybe it is actually YOU who should ‘go and learn’ ???”See the answer to 1, and you’ll know why.
Ard
““That’s his mesora. Choose your pick”- so do all the people on this platform. why are you trying to missionize?”
I’m sorry you find my answers to your voluntary questions (when Chabad is always discussed by those who don’t know them) threatening.
Ard,
“cs- did the rambam learn chasidus and if not how will he understand moshiachs torah?”
I don’t know what you know about Gan Eden so it’s like this. Every man gets to learn according to what he learned in this world by teachers appropriate to his level and he continues to grow in Ahavas and Yiras Hashem. Since The Rambam is a tzaddik, I’m sure he’s in with Rashbi, the Arizal, Baal Shem Tov etc clan, as part of his regular chevrusos, so he’s ready to learn from Moshiach because he never stopped learning.
DY:
“Wonderful accomplishment. But he’s still dead.”
Yes according to worldly goyishe logic. Lucky for me I learned the sicha on how it is that Yaakov Avinu was/ is alive when his blood was drained and his body mummified. He was still able to open his eyes and smile at the sight of Esavs execution. Like me you have a lucky choice you can make.
DY:
“Wow. The gaavah and stupidity is amazing. You think Moshe Rabbeinu needs to be set up.”
Apparently you missed the part about Moshe Rabbeinu learning from the back of Rabbi Akivas class. Don’t you know that even the Avos will learn from Moshiach? That’s a good thing! You want them to be bored?!
DY:
“Nope. We don’t necessarily follow or agree with every group’s mehalach, but Chabad is pretty unique in doing things outside the pale of normative Yiddishkeit.”
You’re welcome to your opinion
DY:
“That’s a distortion of what he said.
Because you have a distorted view of what Moshiach is”
Repeat that back to yourself. Bravo
Thanks @daas-yochid for saying what I was going to say. @chabad-shlucha did answer my question, in a way. She confirmed that Chabadskers are unaware of how they are perceived by the other 95% of frum Jews. Like I said, it’s not just like how a Chussid may view a Teimani, or how a Lakewooder sees Teaneck. It’s straight out unanimous from the highest Rabbonim criticism that what they are doing and believe in is wrong and should not be emulated under any circumstances.
Thank you to the mods for allowing a very important, open, honest and hopefully as respectful as the questioner allows, conversation to happen. As of yet, for the most part haven’t gotten deep at all in lubavitch, on a public forum. like I said, if I come to them, you will know me better. I really appreciate the opportunity.
“I guess you don’t believe in G-d as the missionary claims he does too“
Jews believe in a different G-d in essence, their G-d had a “son” that is part of their trinity
A svara is totally different but hey I wouldn’t put that past you
You think Trump runs America
Don’t put words in my mouth.
He runs America the same way the Rebbe used to run 770.and The Rebbe doesn’t run anything.
What logical reason would one think a person who is in the עולם האמת runs anything in any sense?As you can see, I’m not afraid.
Au contraire. I see you are afraid to answer, which just begs the question why you started this thread.The Rebbe, an absolute tzaddik, referred to the Frierdiker Rebbe as Moshiach
So why do you insist that the Rebbe is Moshiach rather than his shver?
Those who know The Rebbe say not…
Not all…
Repeat that back to yourself. Bravo
Please. We’re not in kindergarten.
cs- it is threatening when people try to spread their twisted views to the masses, but i guess no one is actually conviced so i really shouldnt be worried
and you didnt answer your self contradiction
@ Yserbius123
“She confirmed that Chabadskers are unaware of how they are perceived by the other 95% of frum Jews.”
I think CS is quite aware, actually. ‘The idea is to package things in a way that appears normal. Oros d’tohu b’keilim d’tikun
@ DY and @ YB
You guys do know she is drinking the Reuven Wolf kool-aid, right?
No, I don’t think “I know better then the Ba’al HaTanya. I didn’t learn Tanya so really have no way of knowing if the BH”T holds of what you are attributing to Him. Other posters who seem to be familiar with the sefer don’t seem to think so.
I do know that it is not normative Yidishkeit to relate to a nistalek in the way you are describing. And so do you.
CS:
Obviously you’re ignorant of the medrash that depict this scenario as I posted on our other conversation some time ago to avira. In addition it’s in the classic sources that certain tzaddikim will have techias hameisim early. If I finish all the tasks needed to bring Moshiach (especially if I have 9 other yidden with me), it’s entirely plausible that I’ll go to the Ohel of the Rebbe and demand that he lead the Geula as we’re already all living in Geula mode spiritually. And it will happen.Another scenario is that a certain person will be “Moshiachs assistant” and lead the Geula here on Earth using all the tasks and power left in our instruction manual. In fact this person is already on the planet in the wake of the tragedy of October 7. In that case, The Rebbe would be the honorary Golus Moshiach and the Assistant who led the Geula physically will be crowned Moshiach. The Rebbe hinted at this option in the sicha regarding Kaisar and Palgei Kaiser. Look it up if you wish.
YB:
For two thousand years we have not had the crookedness of loud public belief of mashiach coming back .
All Jews knew the first answer to a Xtian missionary – Where are all the promises of the nevi’im in J’s lifetime ??As RAMBAN put it so eloquently [in his sefer havikuach] THE FACT THAT THOSE PROMISES WERE NOT FULFILLED IN HIS LIFETIME IS AMPLE PROOF TO THE FALSEHOOD OF THEIR CLAIM.
Mashiach dying and coming back IS definitely xtian.
Thats RAMBAN’s view.
btw -There is not one Orthodox Jew on this planet who does not regard RAMBAN as one the gdolei hador and all Jews from his times onwards agreed.
RAMBAN can be safely assumed to have known the whole torah, including any midrash CS’s search engine might produce.
and nevertheless stated thatTHE FACT THAT THOSE PROMISES WERE NOT FULFILLED IN HIS LIFETIME IS AMPLE PROOF TO THE FALSEHOOD OF THEIR CLAIM.
We [plural – the ENTIRE klal yisrael in ALL generations since] rely on RAMBAN for everything, ranging from isurei de’oraytah hamurim to inyanei hashkafa hamurim .
So when tiny teensy CS [huge understatement] wants to overrule RAMBAN based on some midrash her search engine supplied her with, we [the entire klal yisrael] should send her packing on a long one way trip to the desert.
Bear in mind that this midget of a CS confessed the following : “I naturally find the nitty gritty debate of oxen and people challenging and uninspiring (btw so does my brother but he has a chiyuv anyway and I don’t!]”
The above is a self portrait of the ‘BAT PLUGTA” of the RAMBAN ….. Shomu shamayim.
Hu Asher Dibarnu ….
You [plural] either joke about it. Or change topics.
Or pretend that an obvious non answer will do the job. [YB to CS]—————-
“2] Can you point to any source acceptable to all hugim in Yahadut that your leader qualified as a Tsaddiq of Tanya ?” [YB to CS]
Is there any public widely known instance of The Rebbe doing any aveira? Those who know The Rebbe say not… besides for the sheer holiness etc [CS to YB]
———–
Your Rebbi was a controversial person. That is well established fact . There are admittedly many rabbanim who held him in high regard [in various stages of his life] but on the other hand many more rabanim are known to have criticized him on a personal level, some even very harshly so.I think this is an accurate description of your rebbi’s reputation.
So to say axiomatically that your rebbi qualifies as a tsaddiq of tanya …. is doubtful.
To base all your ikarei emuna on that premise is like basing your investment on a 50/50 chance of total loss.
To all undecided readers of these lines I would say – hedge your bets ….
.
“1] Can you point to where in tanya it says that a tsaddik of Tanya is INFALLIBLE ?” [YB to CS}
A tzaddik is totally in line with Hashem’s Ratzon, so his “mistakes” don’t come from yetzer hara but are also directed by Hashem… [CS to YB]
—————-
A mistake is just that – a mistake. Does it have to come from yetser hara ? Maybe it is just human to make a mistake ? Does a tsadiq from tanya know EVERYTHING ?Tanya himself says clearly that hahmei hazal do not know everything . So they cannot be tsadiqim ???
“3] Is the concept of ‘tsadiq of Tanyah’ widely accepted in Yahadut – outside of the hasidi circles ?”
The Alter Rebbe is widely accepted …
————–
That was not the question . The Q was whether the concept of Tsadiq of Tanya is accepted outside of hasidi circles .
And I can tell you.
I know the ‘outside of hasidi circles’ better than a chabad shluha who is not interested in oxen goring people …And I can confirm – THIS CONCEPT OF THE BA”AL HATANYA IS NOT ACCEPTED outside hasidi circles.
You are simply NOT QUALIFIED to answer this question and your honesty – if there is any left- should compel you to agree.
Yserbius,
“Thanks @daas-yochid for saying what I was going to say. @chabad-shlucha did answer my question, in a way. She confirmed that Chabadskers are unaware of how they are perceived by the other 95% of frum Jews. Like I said, it’s not just like how a Chussid may view a Teimani, or how a Lakewooder sees Teaneck. It’s straight out unanimous from the highest Rabbonim criticism that what they are doing and believe in is wrong and should not be emulated under any circumstances.”
We are very aware and that’s why up until recently there was a corresponding lack of respect and mention of those leaders within Lubavitch. We have a strong and powerful Mesora which goes back all the way to Har Sinai. If The Rebbe gets flack when introducing mivtzoim, that causes us to respond in kind as far as attitude. For us, it’s like watching anyone from a Shnooky Shapiro to Hashem’s anointed Shaul, who was struck with madness after failing his mitzvah etc, mess around with Dovid HaMelech.
The only reason Chabad is now including other Jewish approaches, both in Chana Weisbergs podcast and Dovi Paltiels etc, is because there is a new spirit of Ahavas Yisrael towards us from those groups.
We were never isolated though. Chacham Eliyahu, Rav Lau, Rav Moshe Feinstein and many many others had warm relationships with The Rebbe. There’s a Sefer documenting all of them in Hebrew if you want to look into it.
Likewise, The Rebbe and Lubavitch care for all yidden. Rebbetzin Chaya Mushka was concerned about the children who had history that the principal Mrs Vechter knew, since she was leaving her job and fleeing to Eretz Yisrael with her husband who almost lost his life. My Rebbetzin was concerned about the children of the community where the killers were supported, that they shouldn’t lose out from a hasty takeover.
CA
“Jews believe in a different G-d in essence, their G-d had a “son” that is part of their trinity
A svara is totally different but hey I wouldn’t put that past you”
You know nothing about Moshiach and Geula AFAIK (you don’t learn like we do) so your concept of both is probably flawed to a similar extent. You can change that of course. The first recommendation is that you learn Shaarei Geula- Yemos HaMoshiach which will point you in all the right directions to have knowledge in general. Also, the Neviim and mefarshim are full of it. the end of Maseches Sota, and Sanhedrin. Medrash. When you’re finished that lmk. My upcoming shiur for chassidish (not Lubavitch) women will incorporate from all these sources as well as maybe some more Maamarim and sichos of The Rebbe not currently listed. Recommendation is to learn in groups of 10.
DY:
“You think Trump runs America
Don’t put words in my mouth.
He runs America the same way the Rebbe used to run 770.and The Rebbe doesn’t run anything.
What logical reason would one think a person who is in the עולם האמת runs anything in any sense?”As stated, The Alter Rebbe writes that a tzaddik is MORE present in THIS world after his passing, by virtue of his Emuna, Ahava and Yirah which are always present for his mekusharim. For practical examples, which ujm asked for, see my reply to him earlier on this thread with some personal examples
DY:
“So why do you insist that the Rebbe is Moshiach rather than his shver?”
That’s a question which requires more than a one liner. In short, The Rebbe wanted The Frierdiker Rebbe to remain Rebbe as did his Rebbetzin. That’s why The Rebbe vehemently opposed becoming Rebbe. The Rebbetzin Chaya Mushka was the one who clinched his appointment as she said that if you don’t agree to become Rebbe , all my fathers work will go down the drain. Be lost.
So The Rebbe accepted his role with a heavy heart but forever remained his Rebbes chassid. Even his panim he would take to the Ohel of The Frierdiker Rebbe and read them there. Kind of like Moshiach Ben Yosef (The Frierdiker Rebbes name was Yosef Yitzchak) and Moshiach Ben David.
Is that enough info to answer your q?
DY:
“Those who know The Rebbe say not…
Not all…”
Let me make this crystal clear:
Did The Rebbe cvs publicly convert to another religion (shabtai tzvi and others)?
Did he eat Chelev publicly or use the Shem HaMeforash?
No! Ok? I hope that’s clear enough. No need to insult the Rebbes honour like a non tzaddik.
DY:
“Please. We’re not in kindergarten.”
So let’s keep the questions honest and intelligent
Ard
“and you didnt answer your self contradiction”
Which was?
Non political,
“No, I don’t think “I know better then the Ba’al HaTanya. I didn’t learn Tanya so really have no way of knowing if the BH”T holds of what you are attributing to Him. Other posters who seem to be familiar with the sefer don’t seem to think so.”
It’s letter 27 of Iggeres Hakodesh of Tanya. Here half of it for your convenience. See for yourself.
אִיתָא בַּזּוֹהַר הַקָּדוֹשׁ, דְּ”צַדִּיקָא דְּאִתְפַּטַּר אִשְׁתַּכַּח בְּכֻלְּהוּ עָלְמִין יַתִּיר מִבְּחַיּוֹהִי כוּ'”.
וְצָרִיךְ לְהָבִין,
תֵּינַח בְּעוֹלָמוֹת עֶלְיוֹנִים – אִשְׁתַּכַּח יַתִּיר בַּעֲלוֹתוֹ שָׁמָּה, אֲבָל בָּעוֹלָם הַזֶּה אֵיךְ אִשְׁתַּכַּח יַתִּיר?
וְיֵשׁ לוֹמַר, עַל דֶּרֶךְ מַה שֶּׁקִּבַּלְתִי עַל מַאֲמַר חֲכָמֵינוּ־זִכְרוֹנָם־לִבְרָכָה “דְּשָׁבַק חַיִּים לְכָל חַי”,
כַּנּוֹדָע, שֶׁחַיֵּי הַצַּדִּיק אֵינָם חַיִּים בְּשָׂרִים כִּי אִם חַיִּים רוּחַנִיִּים, שֶׁהֵם אֱמוּנָה וְיִרְאָה וְאַהֲבָה,
כִּי בֶּאֱמוּנָה כְּתִיב: “וְצַדִּיק בֶּאֱמוּנָתוֹ יִחְיֶה”,
וּבְיִרְאָה כְּתִיב: “וְיִרְאַת ה’ לְחַיִּים”,
וּבְאַהֲבָה כְּתִיב: “רוֹדֵף צְדָקָה וָחֶסֶד יִמְצָא חַיִּים”,
וְחֶסֶד הוּא אַהֲבָה.
וּשְׁלֹשָה מִדּוֹת אֵלּוּ הֵם בְּכָל עוֹלָם וְעוֹלָם עַד רוּם הַמַּעֲלוֹת,
הַכֹּל לְפִי עֵרֶךְ בְּחִינַת מַעֲלוֹת הָעוֹלָמוֹת
זֶה עַל זֶה בְּדֶרֶךְ עִילָּה וְעָלוּל, כַּנּוֹדָע.
וְהִנֵּה, בִּהְיוֹת הַצַּדִּיק חַי עַל פְּנֵי הָאֲדָמָה, הָיוּ שְׁלֹשָׁה מִדּוֹת אֵלּוּ בְּתוֹךְ כְּלִי וּלְבוּשׁ שֶׁלָּהֶם בִּבְחִינַת מָקוֹם גַּשְׁמִי, שֶׁהִיא בְּחִינַת נֶפֶשׁ הַקְּשׁוּרָה בְּגוּפוֹ,
וְכָל תַּלְמִידָיו אֵינָם מְקַבְּלִים רַק הֶאָרַת מִדּוֹת אֵלּוּ וְזִיוָן,
הַמֵּאִיר חוּץ לִכְלִי זֶה עַל־יְדֵי דִּבּוּרָיו וּמַחְשְׁבוֹתָיו הַקְּדוֹשִׁים,
וְלָכֵן אָמְרוּ רַבּוֹתֵינוּ־זִכְרוֹנָם־לִבְרָכָה שֶׁאֵין אָדָם עוֹמֵד עַל דַּעַת רַבּוֹ וְכוּ’.
אֲבָל לְאַחַר פְּטִירָתוֹ, לְפִי שֶׁמִּתְפָּרְדִים בְּחִינַת הַנֶּפֶשׁ שֶׁנִּשְׁאֲרָה בַּקֶּבֶר מִבְּחִינַת הָרוּחַ שֶׁבְּגַן עֵדֶן, שֶׁהֵן שָׁלֹשׁ מִדּוֹת הַלָּלוּ,
לְפִיכָךְ יָכוֹל כָּל הַקָּרוֹב אֵלָיו לְקַבֵּל חֵלֶק מִבְּחִינַת רוּחוֹ שֶׁבְּגַן עֵדֶן,
הוֹאִיל וְאֵינָהּ בְּתוֹךְ כְּלִי וְלֹא בִּבְחִינַת מָקוֹם גַּשְׁמִי,
כַּנּוֹדָע מַאֲמַר רַבּוֹתֵינוּ־זִכְרוֹנָם־לִבְרָכָה עַל יַעֲקֹב אָבִינוּ עָלָיו־הַשָּׁלוֹם שֶׁנִּכְנַס עִמּוֹ גַּן עֵדֶן,
וְכֵן כָּתַב בְּסֵפֶר עֲשָׂרָה מַאֲמָרוֹת, שֶׁאֲוִיר גַּן עֵדֶן מִתְפַּשֵּׁט סָבִיב כָּל אָדָם,
וְנִרְשָׁמִים בַּאֲוִיר זֶה כָּל מַחְשְׁבוֹתָיו וְדִבּוּרָיו הַטּוֹבִים בַּתּוֹרָה וַעֲבוֹדַת ה’
(וְכֵן לְהֵיפֶךְ חַס וְשָׁלוֹם נִרְשָׁמִים בַּאֲוִיר הַמִּתְפַּשֵּׁט מִגֵּיהִנֹּם סָבִיב כָּל אָדָם).
הִלְכָּךְ, נָקֵל מְאֹד לְתַלְמִידָיו, לְקַבֵּל חֶלְקָם מִבְּחִינַת רוּחַ רַבָּם הָעַצְמִיִּית, שֶׁהֵם אֱמוּנָתוֹ וְיִרְאָתוֹ וְאַהֲבָתוֹ אֲשֶׁר עָבַד בָּהֶם אֶת ה’,
וְלֹא זִיוָום בִּלְבַד הַמֵּאִיר חוּץ לַכְּלִי,
לְפִי שֶׁבְּחִינַת רוּחוֹ הָעַצְמִית מִתְעַלָּה בְּעִילּוּי אַחַר עִילּוּי,
לְהִכָּלֵל בִּבְחִינַת נִשְׁמָתוֹ שֶׁבְּגַן עֵדֶן הָעֶלְיוֹן שֶׁבָּעוֹלָמוֹת הָעֶלְיוֹנִים,
וְנוֹדָע, שֶׁכָּל דָּבָר שֶׁבִּקְדוּשָּׁה אֵינוֹ נֶעְקָר לְגַמְרֵי מִכֹּל וָכֹל מִמְּקוֹמוֹ וּמַדְרֵגָתוֹ הָרִאשׁוֹנָה, גַּם לְאַחַר שֶׁנִּתְעַלָּה לְמַעְלָה לְמַעְלָה.
וּבְחִינָה זוֹ הָרִאשׁוֹנָה שֶׁנִּשְׁאֲרָה לְמַטָּה בְּגַן עֵדֶן הַתַּחְתּוֹן בִּמְקוֹמוֹ וּמַדְרֵגָתוֹ הָרִאשׁוֹנָה,
הִיא הַמִּתְפַּשֶּׁטֶת בְּתַלְמִידָיו,
כָּל אֶחָד כְּפִי בְּחִינַת הִתְקַשְּׁרוּתוֹ וְקִרְבָתוֹ אֵלָיו בְּחַיָּיו וּבְמוֹתוֹ בְּאַהֲבָה רַבָּה,
כִּי, הַמְשָׁכַת כָּל רוּחָנִיּוּת, אֵינָהּ אֶלָּא עַל־יְדֵי אַהֲבָה רַבָּה,
כְּמוֹ שֶׁכָּתוּב בַּזּוֹהַר הַקָּדוֹשׁ דְּרוּחַ דִּרְעוּתָא דְלִבָּא אַמְשִׁיךְ רוּחַ מִלְּעֵילָא,
רַק אִם יִכּוֹן לִקְרַאת אֱלֹהָיו בַּהֲכָנָה רַבָּה וִיגִיעָה עֲצוּמָה,
לְקַבֵּל שָׁלֹשׁ מִדּוֹת הַלָּלוּ, כְּדֶרֶךְ שֶׁהוֹרָהוּ רַבּוֹ, וּכְמַאֲמַר רַבּוֹתֵינוּ־זִכְרוֹנָם־לִבְרָכָה: “יָגַעְתָּ וּמָצָאתָ – תַּאֲמִין”.
וְהִנֵּה, יֵשׁ עוֹד בְּחִינַת הֶאָרָה לְתַלְמִידָיו,
רַק שֶׁאֵינָהּ מִתְלַבֶּשֶׁת בְּתוֹךְ מוֹחָם מַמָּשׁ כָּרִאשׁוֹנָה,
רַק מְאִירָה עֲלֵיהֶם מִלְמַעְלָה,
וְהִיא מֵעֲלִיַּית רוּחוֹ וְנִשְׁמָתוֹ לִמְקוֹר חוּצְבּוֹ,
דְּהַיְינוּ לַ”חֲקַל תַּפּוּחִין קַדִּישִׁין”,
וְעַל־יְדֵי זֶה נַעֲשֶׂה שָׁם יִחוּד,
עַל־יְדֵי הַעֲלָאַת “מַיִּין נוּקְבִין” מִכָּל מַעֲשָׂיו וְתוֹרָתוֹ וַעֲבוֹדָתוֹ אֲשֶׁר עָבַד כָּל יְמֵי חַיָּיו,
וְנִזְרְעוּ בַּ”חֲקַל תַּפּוּחִין קַדִּישִׁין” אוֹרוֹת עֶלְיוֹנִים מְאֹד,
לְעוּמַּת תַּחְתּוֹנִים, אֲשֶׁר הֵם תּוֹרָתוֹ וַעֲבוֹדָתוֹ.
וְהֶאָרַת אוֹרוֹת עֶלְיוֹנִים אֵלּוּ מְאִירָה עַל כָּל תַּלְמִידָיו, שֶׁנַּעֲשׂוּ עוֹבְדֵי ה’ עַל־יְדֵי תּוֹרָתוֹ וַעֲבוֹדָתוֹ.
וְהֶאָרָה זוֹ שֶׁעֲלֵיהֶם מִלְמַעְלָה, מַכְנֶסֶת בְּלִבָּם הִרְהוּרֵי תְּשׁוּבָה וּמַעֲשִׂים טוֹבִים,
וְכָל הַמַּעֲשִׂים טוֹבִים הַנּוֹלָדִים מֵהֶאָרָה זוֹ שֶׁמְּאִירָה מֵאוֹרוֹת הַזְּרוּעִים בַּשָּׂדֶה הַנִּזְכָּר לְעֵיל – נִקְרָא “גִּידּוּלֵי גִידּוּלִין”.
וְהֶאָרָה זוֹ הִיא בְּהֶעְלֵם וְהֶסְתֵּר גָּדוֹל, כְּמוֹ שֶׁמֶשׁ הַמֵּאִיר לַכּוֹכָבִים מִתַּחַת לָאָרֶץ,
כִּדְאִיתָא בַּתִּיקּוּנִים עַל מֹשֶׁה רַבֵּינוּ עָלָיו־הַשָּׁלוֹם,
שֶׁאַחַר פְּטִירָתוֹ מִתְפַּשֶּׁטֶת הֶאָרָתוֹ בְּכָל דָּרָא וְדָרָא לְשִׁשִּׁים רִבּוֹא נְשָׁמוֹת,
כְּמוֹ שֶׁמֶשׁ הַמֵּאִיר מִתַּחַת לָאָרֶץ לְשִׁשִּׁים רִבּוֹא כּוֹכָבִים:YB,
Post 1. What promises weren’t fulfilled? It seems that was your point. And yes I am teeny tiny CS. On much greater shoulders.YB: see my recent posts to DY. they address you as well
Yb:
“—————-
A mistake is just that – a mistake. Does it have to come from yetser hara ? Maybe it is just human to make a mistake ? Does a tsadiq from tanya know EVERYTHING ?Tanya himself says clearly that hahmei hazal do not know everything . So they cannot be tsadiqim ???”
When a Gadol BYisrael makes a mistake, it impacts the people around him that are depending on him innocently. So he has extra siyata dishmaya to make the right psak etc. I think it’s the Chazan Ish who has a story like this.
That doesn’t mean they know everything. Even Neviim only know what Hashem reveals to them.
YB:
“That was not the question . The Q was whether the concept of Tsadiq of Tanya is accepted outside of hasidi circles .
And I can tell you.
I know the ‘outside of hasidi circles’ better than a chabad shluha who is not interested in oxen goring people …And I can confirm – THIS CONCEPT OF THE BA”AL HATANYA IS NOT ACCEPTED outside hasidi circles.
You are simply NOT QUALIFIED to answer this question and your honesty – if there is any left- should compel you to agree.”
Why would I care? If I was Belz and it was not customary in my community to relate to a Rebbe in this way (probably because there’s a physical person leading anyway so no need, like the Rebbe leading on from the Frierdiker Rebbe), I could understand your post. I’m a Lubavitcher Chossid. What does this have to do with me?
When I got married, my husband who learns mostly Gemara and Shulchan Aruch but also likes to learn Chassidishe sefarim (included in the chassidishe sefarim that he learns are Tanya and Breslover sefarim) asked me why people don’t like Chabad and Breslov. I told him that Bobov doesn’t walk around trying to convince the world that their mehalech is the best, and neither does Gur, only Chabad and Breslov. He didn’t understand at first until he experienced it firsthand and now looks at Chabad and Breslov the same way I do.
CS- Chabad helped you see the light, it works for you? Great! I hate to break it to you- no one else is interested.CS Wrote: “The Rebbe would be the honorary Golus Moshiach and the Assistant who led the Geula physically will be crowned Moshiach.”
Are you saying that the person who actually fulfills the requirements for Mashiach, the one who is “crowned Moshiach” will be the assistant? And the “Golus Moshiach” who did not fulfill the requirements for Mashiach will be main Moshiach?
CS Wrote: The Rebbe, an absolute tzaddik, referred to the Frierdiker Rebbe as Moshiach and said many times, hekitzu vrannu shochvei afar, vhu bsocham, vhu yigalenu.
So was he right about the Frierdiker Rebbe being Moshiach?
CS wrote: I think any rational person will see The Rebbe had the greatest influence from the entire Jewish people on every community and even goyim
I do have may noticeable shortcomings. However, no one who knows me would count an absence of rationality among them. Here is my list of what has had the greatest (positive) influence on the entire Jewish People
I think the greatest influences (by far) have been:
1) the founding of Beis Yaacov
2) the rebuilding of Yeshivos
3) Kollel (including community Kollelim)
4) The flourishing of Torah in E”YSo when the Rebbe maintained the idea that b’hatznei leches is key to bringing Moshiach many times over the years what part of this did you not understand?
Don’t tell me he changed his mind when the nutjobs in the later years took advantage of him after the stroke.
It’s people like you CS, whom the Rebbe was clearly against that make fools out of Lubavitch.
Sometimes I think the Litvaks mastering Gemara and growing kollels are doing more to create a dira bitachtonim than ChaBaD is. I’m not going to ask any more questions as you have exposed yourself as another lazy meshichist who thinks saying yechi does something. This is an absolute chillul Lubavitch.
“You know nothing about Moshiach and Geula AFAIK (you don’t learn like we do) so your concept of both is probably flawed to a similar extent”
I didn’t know you spell cop out with a CS
And I’ll say it again
I don’t see how your claims are any different than the notzrim
And btw your גאוה is showing (and telling)
Number 1, I do moche on the CS’s bizui of the Torah !!! (What she said about learning Nazikin).
Number 2, “there is no public record of the Rebbe doing an aviera…”. That is the proof that he like Dovid ha’Melech killed his yetzer ha’ra (which is the Tanya’s definition of of a tzaddik). Are you for real?!?!CS, your views on Moshiach are in divergence from what Klal Yisroel held for 2,000 years. You are pushing yourself out of Klal Yisroel!
cs- you said the gaon had a mesora against chabad, so does everybody, and to pick, then why are you telling everyone they must believe in the rebbe
Read all questions put to CS and read all answers.
How many remain ‘non addressed’, as in ignored ?
How many merit nothing more than a flippant response ?
How many receive a condescending response ?
How many merit nothing more than a joke as response ?
In how many responses do you see CS’s middah of moddeh al ha ’emet at work ?
In how many of her responses do you see evidence of her shallow approach , worthy of a female who could not be bothered to do the hard work of deciphering basic sugyot of oxen and people goring each other [basic stuff for any aspiring talmud scholar] , and nevertheless feels qualified to teach our entire generation about the proper approach to ikarei emuna , and in addition feels qualified to overrule RAMBAN in those issues ?
In how many of her responses do you see evidence of this age old ma’amar – ein hohmat nashim ela biflach ?
In how many of her responses can we see the wisdom of the rebbi of the WHOLE klal yisrael ldoroteihem [not only of a minority of brainwashed lunatics] Maran HaBetYosef who paskaned in his Shulhan Aruch – Kol hamelamed et bito torah , ke’ilu melamdah tiflut ?
I think our collective message to her should be –
please look in the mirror with honesty and humility and
REMEMBER – eizehu haham , hamakir et mekomo.
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