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CS, thank you, I appreciate your comment.
I’m trying to stay out of these questions, you’re handling them really well, great style.
Except some questions set my alarm bells ringing so I couldn’t resist responding.
@ 741
You wrote: “there are lots of views on this topic, but it’s definitely a valid shita…please read through the תשובה in מנחת אלעזר חלק א סימן ס״ח, over there he goes through in depth about this topic and he holds that you can ask the neshama directly to intercede on your behalf.
There are:
1) Yiddin who daven to Hashem at kvorim and DO NOT request the nefesh of the nistalek to intercede on their behalf (rather it is understood the the Nefesh may do so).
2) Yiddin who daven to Hashem at Kvorim and, per the referenced M”E, do request the nistalek to intercede on their behalf.Neither of the above sounds like what CS is describing.
@ DY
You wrote: “…asks for Rebbe’s assistance (via brachos, etc.) even when not at the Ohel. My impression is that most frum Yidden reserve it for an occasion here and there and particularly at the kever of whichever tzadik is being asked to intercede”
I don’t think you are right about this. Who allows asking a Nistalek for a bracha (at the kever or not)? There is a difference between asking the nistalek to intercede and asking the nistalek for a bracha. The problem is further compounded when the nistalek is believed to “run the world like Trump runs America.”
Is 770 the dwelling place of the Shechina?
Do you believe that 770 is the Mikdash?“That’s absurd! Everyone knows the Beis HaMikdash was destroyed, and the Shechina either returned to Heaven or rests at the Kosel. Right?”
But wait – the pasuk says that after the Beis HaMikdash was destroyed, the Shechina dwells in the “small mikdash.”
Where is the “small mikdash” (or “second to the Mikdash” –Rashi/Targum)?
R’ Elazar says (מגילה כט,א): “This is the house of our rebbe in Bavel.”“The Shechina remained with the Jews wherever they were exiled” – but where?
Abaye says it’s in the central Beis Knesses of the time.Now, the question is: Where is the “central shul”? And who is “our rebbe”?
That’s up for debate, but I think you can guess what the average Lubavitcher would answer…
CS: I don’t quite understand if you have a shaila of, say, should I marry this person, or which Yeshiva should I send my son to, or how should I resolve a fight with my neighbor, or should I dedicate my life to Torah exclusively or should I also take a job, or is this particular job offer the proper hashkafa and tznius (and should I accept it), or how should I enforce tznius standards in my family, etc.
How does the Lubavitcher Rebbe zt’l answer those questions for you when you ask him shailas similar to the above examples.
Your crooked theology has [and will further] give fuel to Xtian pretenses to make unsuspecting Jews accept the messiahship [and worse] of their discredited idol.
You [plural] have never taken all those serious issues by the horns.You either joke about it. Or change topics. Or ignore it.
Or pretend that an obvious non answer will do the job.coffee addict- thats why i added the every single other gadol part
CS- what does chabad think about the vilna gaon?
ujm- they do a goral hagra (sorry if that name causes trauma) with the letters of the rebbe
im not joking
“coffee addict- thats why i added the every single other gadol part“
Ard,
Lubavitchers would say
“1) how do you know they didn’t?
2) if you do know then it obviously means that he’s not a gadol”
Now you know why they don’t hold highly gedolim
it is quite clear from his writings etc. that the rambam did not learn chasidus and chabad of course holds of the rambam
Ard,
🤫
The rambam was a closet Lubavitcher
You didn’t know that?
Still waiting…
what does chabad think about the vilna gaon?
The Rebbe quoted him and referenced him often, with respect.
How does the Lubavitcher Rebbe zt’l answer those questions for you when you ask him shailas similar to the above examples.
UJM, I can’t speak for CS, but here are my thoughts:
While the Rebbe provided immense personal guidance, he often emphasized that answers or directives given to one person might not necessarily apply to another.
Especially in the later years, the Rebbe would frequently refrain from answering personal questions directly. Instead, he directed chassidim to consult with a mashpia, rov, doctor, or ‘yedidim mevinim’ — depending on the context of the question.
So, if I or anyone I know has a practical question like the one you described, we consult with the relevant individuals for advice, expecting that the guidance will be informed and guided by the wealth of the Rebbe’s teachings.
One of the things that yiddishkeit is known for is that we don’t proselytize to get more people to join our faith, because when you have the truth you don’t need to force other people to agree with you
When it comes to these chabad threads it seems like the Lubavitchers start them so they can be “understood and accepted” something that yiddishkeit doesn’t do
It gets one wondering…..
One of the things that yiddishkeit is known for is that we don’t proselytize to get more people to join our faith
What are you talking about? We definitely believe in kiruv.
Menachem Shmei:
I seem to recall that CS has posted on this forum (and I’ve seen similar comments by other Lubavitchers elsewhere, in case I’m misremembering regarding CS), people who were born after the Lubavitcher Rebbe was niftar, saying that had some sort of big/serious shaila and they (somehow) asked the Rebbe what to do, and the Rebbe answered him/her to do X, Y and Z.
That’s what I’m trying to understand.
Aaq,
Kiruv isnt proselytizing
Ncsy doesn’t try to get people to be “modern”, they get people to be “frum” ohr somayach or chazaq don’t try to make people ashkenazim or sfardim (based on their respective nusach) yet chabad gets frum people to agree with their mehalach (so much so that people that don’t learn “moshiach’s torah, will have to be taught) that’s what I mean by “proselytize“
@menachem-shmei How does that shtim with the philosophy I’ve heard from many Chabadskers that they don’t need a Rebbe since there are enough writings by Rav Schneerson ZT”L to answer anything that may come up? Furthermore, the concept that Rav Schneerson ZT”L said that his answers are personal and don’t apply to everyone flies in the face of normative Chabad religious practices, like studying his letters and speeches and basing life choices on what he said to other people at other times.
MS:
“ CS, thank you, I appreciate your comment.I’m trying to stay out of these questions, you’re handling them really well, great style.”
If I’m saving you time that’s being put to learning or mivtzoim etc that’s great. Otherwise, feel free to answer and if your answer is sufficient, and I see it, I’ll ignore that question.
“Except some questions set my alarm bells ringing so I couldn’t resist responding.”
lol I get the feeling. Used to get to me too. This is much better
Ard,
“ CS thinks that’s exactly what he learned! Why do you think he was up there for 40 days?
Yserbius,
Our mesorah is זריזים מקדימים”
Exactly. He learned the whole Torah then. He didn’t learn Toraso shel Moshiach but won’t be tutoring. He’s still learning. By the way he didn’t know what Rabi Akiva learned about the tagim either…
Ard:
I wish. My plan has hit many stumps but we will win!
Lost Spark (B.G. son?)
“ CS:
“Do you believe all the souls leaving this world pass through the Rebbes office?”
I’m sorry I wish I saw that kind of stuff. I don’t. They did before.
“Do you believe all the teffilah in the world goes through 770?”
Same answer
Do you believe that 770 is the mikdash?
Have you learned kuntres Beis Rabbeinu ShebiBavel?
Lostspark,
“ CS: Do you believe the Geulah will come if all yidden accept the Lubavitcher Rebbe as Moshiach?”
That’s a bit too simplistic. You’d have to clarify what you mean by accept.
“Is not believing in the Rebbe delaying Moshiachs coming?”
Honestly there will be other options soon if Lubavitcher chassidim don’t get their act together. Very likely techias hameisim is in 4 years based on Zohar and Dvar Malchus. It’s a bit ironic. See my post to DY
“Is 770 the dwelling place for the Shechina?” Great question. I’m not sure. It definitely was and will always have that kedusha. Machlokes drives away Shechina though…
DY:
“ I don’t believe that any other chassidus focuses its tefilod and a odas Hashem on their Rebbe in any way comparable to how some Chabad chassidim do with their (no longer alive) rebbe.”
Or maybe he’s just more alive and available to any yid even more than before because he’s not bound by time… how many “alive” Rebbes can boast of the number of The Rebbe’s shluchim post gimmel tammuz? Check out the different yidden who visit the ohel. Since when did alive mean meat?
There’s probably more, i just haven’t had time to finish my Rebbeim yet and Hashem gifted me this Sefer via HP
Thanks 741 for your input. All one Torah. I’m excited to share I found my first non Lubavitcher Sefer that I enjoy and find inspiring from the mussar genre (I already learn many classical mesorah sefarim.)
Ard:
“ will moshe rabeinu need your services as a tutor when mashiach comes since he didnt learn chasidus? (also applies to every single other gadol ever)”
lol no. He’s already set up and was never known to bee stupid
Ard:
and what i meant in the later was that even though every single other gadol says the rebbe is dead and buried and certainly not mashiach, chabadskers still hang on delusionally and even try to missionize others. also they dont teach their kids about other gedolim (how many kids in bais rivka knew who r’ chaim kanievsky was?) and in general put aside any torah other than chabads.
I agree with you on this. Check out Dovi Paltiels new podcast on chabad.org.
Yserbius:
“@CS I’m not attempting to make a substantial point. You said this is an open floor for questions about Chabad and I’m curious about the answer to mine. Are Chabaskers in general aware that many of their practices, beliefs, and customs (and they acceptance they have of others with certain beliefs etc.) are considered to be outside the norm of frum Yiddishkeit by the vast majority of the frum world?”
Yes, just like every other group of frum yidden.
“ @CS If you want me to be more specific, let’s take the idea that Rav Schneerson ZT”L watches everything his Chassidim do from his place in Olom Haba’ah and therefore he can answer bakoshos. Although there is some basis to this, it’s considered highly irregular by frum Jews and you will not find a non-Chabad Talmid Chacham who would recommend keeping a dead man in mind when davening. And that goes even more so to the people who direct their teffilos to using a dead man as an emmisary instead of talking directly to Hashem, which is something considered acceptable in most of Chabad.”
Not acceptable during davening. No one teaches to have The Rebbe in mind during davening. Well known that The Rebbe protested when chassidim got distracted and looked at him during davening.
DY:
Me: Part 2: because they know of the Dvar Malchus and still lack gaon Yaakov
“Please explain”
Meaning the men live in cognitive dissonance of believing The Rebbe is Moshiach but not actually bringing him. For example, singing yechi is mostly banned. The palace for Moshiach is stuck in red tape. There is no widely accepted psak din regarding The Rebbe and Moshiach, and there’s still “2 sides” of tohu and tikkun when they’re meant to be combined harmoniously. Talk to a Lubavitcher in person for further info.
YB:
“ Your crooked theology has [and will further] give fuel to Xtian pretenses to make unsuspecting Jews accept the messiahship [and worse] of their discredited idol.
You [plural] have never taken all those serious issues by the horns…”I’m sorry that to you, Moshiach is xtian. That’s actually apikorsus.
“Only once you will be prepared to internalize that this person was a fallible human , prone to mistakes and subject his personal negi’ot, notwithstanding his many talents and mesirut nefesh, only then we will be able to see a possibility to have REAL open and honest, evidence based discussion of all of the above.
Until then we will have to suffice with shallow responses, change of topics, misplaced claims of victimhood and occasional jokes.
But not a serious discussion.
Haval.”Apparently you never met a Tzaddik of Tanya. Sounds like the Yanuka and Modzitzer Rebbe may qualify. Go and learn.
CA:
“ or someone who thinks they know what Torah will be like when moshiach comes and whatever it is, it’s (Lubavitch) chassidus”I’m sorry you don’t. That’s a personal choice and I respect your decision to remain ignorant (I guess you never heard of the famous story with the Baal Shem Tov and Moshiachs Neshama.)
“Interesting enough, in the circle magazine the main feature is about the people that still think shabtzai tzvi is moshiach and coming back”
Just because stupid people who think a rasha who publicly “converted” r”l could still be Moshiach, it doesn’t mean smart people who believe Moshiach is a real figure per generation are wrong (think it’s in the Chida)(we still live with TheRebbe although there may be 2 more potentials born since assuming yichus is right as per the Rambam.)
Lostspark:
“ Ok here are some more for you not to answer:
How many more days to go?”Not sure. Unexpected st (satan tackle) games came up with finishing the process both with myself and 10 others unfortunately. But good news in Israel BH. We will win!
“Whom are you referring to as the “true Moshiach”?”
That I shall not answer for now.
“Which Zohar/chassidus gave you nevuah on your three day estimate?” Hoshea (2:6?). But I misunderstood the st game factor. It’s all fine. We will win!
“Does your husband know you forgot to take your pills?”
I wish that was the issue lol
“How many people in the coffee room have you convinced so far in your shlichus? It sounds like you have done a good job convincing yourself to believe a lot lol!”
Yeah BH. How about on your progress?
Hey sorry for the delay. Lots of S.T (satan tackle) stuff here, as always when I mess about with finishing the job…
Enjoy my responses. I enjoy your questions. Almost all are amazing.
Non political,
“ Neither of the above sounds like what CS is describing.”
The Alter Rebbe writes that tzaddikim are more present in this physical world after their passing. You think you know better?
Ujm
“ CS: I don’t quite understand if you have a shaila of, say, should I marry this person, or which Yeshiva should I send my son to, or how should I resolve a fight with my neighbor, or should I dedicate my life to Torah exclusively or should I also take a job, or is this particular job offer the proper hashkafa and tznius (and should I accept it), or how should I enforce tznius standards in my family, etc.
How does the Lubavitcher Rebbe zt’l answer those questions for you when you ask him shailas similar to the above examples.”
The Rebbe said that when we speak to a proper mashpia, The Rebbe will advise through them. To ask a rofeh yedid as a second opinion on medical matters. The Rebbe hut bavarent altz.
However, during my Shana Rishona with regular adjustments of marriage I was continually comforted by The Rebbes bracha on the day before my wedding (see my previous answer to you), which gave me the clarity to know I did indeed marry my other half. And the fact that this happens for me on a regular basis, especially regarding avodas Hashem is such a nes, that it just makes my Rebbe so much more precious to me.
I wrote in about my S.T. challenges, and sent it in to the random online iggros (usually I first send to The Ohel). The letter was unbelievably on point. I’m saving it with my other letters that I’m working to carry out.
DY:
“ I don’t think you are right about this. Who allows asking a Nistalek for a bracha (at the kever or not)? There is a difference between asking the nistalek to intercede and asking the nistalek for a bracha. The problem is further compounded when the nistalek is believed to “run the world like Trump runs America.”
I’m sorry you believe Trump runs America. SAD!
Ard,
“ CS- what does chabad think about the vilna gaon?”
A big tzaddik who was misled by a maskil in his court (discovered by written correspondence from the maskil). So he was fed distortions such as that The Alter Rebbe had a girl on his lap on tisha bav and was eating. (Tisha bav was on shabbos, and the girl was his young granddaughter.)
And according to video testimony of the Gras descendent, the Gra jumped out the window when the Alter Rebbe tried his door because he was afraid of being overwhelmed and joining…
That’s his mesora. Choose your pick
CA:
“ One of the things that yiddishkeit is known for is that we don’t proselytize to get more people to join our faith, because when you have the truth you don’t need to force other people to agree with you
When it comes to these chabad threads it seems like the Lubavitchers start them so they can be “understood and accepted” something that yiddishkeit doesn’t do
It gets one wondering…..”
My experience was that I came to ywn to explore another Jewish world and found Chabad constantly misrepresented, so here we are… but honestly I’ve learned a lot from you guys. You may be much more ignorant than us in pnimius haTorah but the current state of affairs is that Lubavitcher is living in the cognitive dissonance of trying to bring The Rebbe back while not actually DOING it, and litvish sincerely want Moshiach someday sometime, and think he’s some kind of Elvis (whatever that means…)
It only takes one person to bring Moshiach because the tasks are all layed out, so I will definitely succeed. I just want it to take faster. Hard to get people on board sometimes. If I do reveal myself in this way to Lubavitch to get them on board, it would have to be a different method. Not as personal. They may as well take Moshiach from the litvaks.
DY:
“ One of the things that yiddishkeit is known for is that we don’t proselytize to get more people to join our faith
What are you talking about? We definitely believe in kiruv.”
And Sheva mitzvos – lisaken olam bmalchus Shakai
Ujm-
“ I seem to recall that CS has posted on this forum (and I’ve seen similar comments by other Lubavitchers elsewhere, in case I’m misremembering regarding CS), people who were born after the Lubavitcher Rebbe was niftar, saying that had some sort of big/serious shaila and they (somehow) asked the Rebbe what to do, and the Rebbe answered him/her to do X, Y and Z.That’s what I’m trying to understand”
I gave you many examples from my life. You may have missed it. Check pages one and two. Could be I directed it at Joseph
CA,
“ Kiruv isnt proselytizing
Ncsy doesn’t try to get people to be “modern”, they get people to be “frum” ohr somayach or chazaq don’t try to make people ashkenazim or sfardim (based on their respective nusach) yet chabad gets frum people to agree with their mehalach (so much so that people that don’t learn “moshiach’s torah, will have to be taught) that’s what I mean by “proselytize“”
It’s like this. Remember Bnei Yisrael protested that the Torah is for everyone and shouldn’t be just for shevet Levi? So as Rebbetzin Vechter put it when her husband revealed to her that he was teaching her TheRebbes Torah, “If this is what I thought I’d go to Gehennom for learning, it’s worth it!!”
We like to share the joy, clarity and depth we have as a result
Talk to a Lubavitcher in person for further info
It sounds like you’re afraid to explain in plain English….
I wonder why…Not singing Yechi about a person who was niftar is actually normal and sane.
“The Rebbe back while not actually DOING it, and litvish sincerely want Moshiach someday sometime, and think he’s some kind of Elvis (whatever that means…)”
No we don’t believe moshiach is Elvis, Elvis died (some people don’t think so) but what we believe is that if moshiach was going to come from the dead (which is highly unlikely) he could be from the thousands of tzaddikim that lived before the rebbe
“It’s like this. Remember Bnei Yisrael protested that the Torah is for everyone and shouldn’t be just for shevet Levi? So as Rebbetzin Vechter put it when her husband revealed to her that he was teaching her TheRebbes Torah, “If this is what I thought I’d go to Gehennom for learning, it’s worth it!!””
Tell that to any missionary and he laugh you out of town because that is his reasoning too
YB:
“ Your crooked theology has [and will further] give fuel to Xtian pretenses to make unsuspecting Jews accept the messiahship [and worse] of their discredited idol.
You [plural] have never taken all those serious issues by the horns…You either joke about it. Or change topics.
Or pretend that an obvious non answer will do the job.CS:
I’m sorry that to you, Moshiach is xtian. That’s actually apikorsus.
———————————————————————————–
Looks like CS is trying to prove my point.
This is either an obvious non answer or a joke.For two thousand years we have not had the crookedness of loud public belief of mashiach coming back .
All Jews knew the first answer to a Xtian missionary – Where are all the promises of the nevi’im in J’s lifetime ??As RAMBAN put it so eloquently [in his sefer havikuach] THE FACT THAT THOSE PROMISES WERE NOT FULFILLED IN HIS LIFETIME IS AMPLE PROOF TO THE FALSEHOOD OF THEIR CLAIM.
So , no , obviously the idea of mashiach is not xtian .
But Mashiach dying and coming back IS definitely xtian.And your [plural] stupid propagation of your discredited mashiach coming back , which is against YOUR [plural] OWN publicly stated mass- and multiyear position, is being used by xtians in their dangerous missionary work , shmadding innocent nefashot forever.
All for a bit narishe kavod – Just to be able to say : My Leader is greater than everyone else. My Torah is deeper than everyone else’s.
YB:
Only once you will be prepared to internalize that this person was a fallible human , prone to mistakes and subject his personal negi’ot, notwithstanding his many talents and mesirut nefesh, only then we will be able to see a possibility to have REAL open and honest, evidence based discussion of all of the above.
Until then we will have to suffice with shallow responses, change of topics, misplaced claims of victimhood and occasional jokes.
But not a serious discussion.
Haval.”CS:
Apparently you never met a Tzaddik of Tanya. Sounds like the Yanuka and Modzitzer Rebbe may qualify. Go and learn.——————————————————————-
1] Can you point to where in tanya it says that a tsaddik of Tanya is INFALLIBLE ?2] Can you point to any source acceptable to all hugim in Yahadut that your leader qualified as a Tsaddiq of Tanya ?
3] Is the concept of ‘tsadiq of Tanyah’ widely accepted in Yahadut – outside of the hasidi circles ?
4] Is the tsaddiq of Tanya explanation the only available one to explain the relevant ma’amarei hazal ?
5] If there exist other explanations , how are they more deficient in actually explaining the relevant ma’amarei hazal when compared to the Tanya’s [besides that they will not serve the habad cause]
6] Why do you employ the condescending attitude that it is the opposite side who has ‘go and learn’ ?
Maybe it is actually YOU who should ‘go and learn’ ???
.“That’s his mesora. Choose your pick”- so do all the people on this platform. why are you trying to missionize?
cs- did the rambam learn chasidus and if not how will he understand moshiachs torah?
how many “alive” Rebbes can boast of the number of The Rebbe’s shluchim post gimmel tammuz?
Wonderful accomplishment. But he’s still dead.
He’s already set up and was never known to bee stupid
Wow. The gaavah and stupidity is amazing. You think Moshe Rabbeinu needs to be set up.
Yes, just like every other group of frum yidden.
Nope. We don’t necessarily follow or agree with every group’s mehalach, but Chabad is pretty unique in doing things outside the pale of normative Yiddishkeit.
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