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Hashem gave us mitzvos to do. Yes, sometimes there’s a p’tur, but it’s not the ideal.
Yet you’re perfectly fine with the svara that when Shulchan Aruch wrote that menorah must be lit outdoors for pirsumei nisa unless it is dangerous, it was actually modifying the mitzvah, and now, in safe times, it is *preferable* and *ideal* to light the menorah indoors, with minimal pirsumei nisa.
This svara makes perfect sense to you.
To me it’s clear that the minhag of Sukkah is the strongest of the three, as I’ve expressed, and you obviously disagree.
I’ll likely be suspected of only thinking this way because I’m biased as a Lubavitcher, but I would similarly suspect that those who strongly oppose this minhag are doing so specifically because it’s Chabad.
[No Yankel, I’m not “playing victim.” I’m just stating the facts as I see them. You can’t call me “biased” to my beliefs (whatever that even means) without me suspecting the same of you.]
Yet you’re perfectly fine with the svara that when Shulchan Aruch wrote that menorah must be lit outdoors for pirsumei nisa unless it is dangerous, it was actually modifying the mitzvah, and now, in safe times, it is *preferable* and *ideal* to light the menorah indoors, with minimal pirsumei nisa.
I mamish don’t understand your tzu shtell between sleeping in the Sukkah and lighting the menorah indoors, and this paragraph is incomprehensible. (I don’t think anyone claimed that the SA modified the mitzvah).
The only tzu shtell is that they both go against the psak of the Shluchan Aruch, but that misses the point, because the tayna isn’t that it goes against the psak of the Shulchan Aruch, it’s that makes no sense that this mitzvah was given only for those on lower level.
it’s that makes no sense that this mitzvah was given only for those on lower level.
Where’d you get this from? There’s an entire pilpul of the Rebbe on the subject that you haven’t learned properly. Learn it before making assumptions.
Likkutei Sichos vol. 29 pg. 211 https://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14952&st=&pgnum=226For example, footnote 13:
* ואין להקשות מדוע לא מצינו הנהגה כזו בדורות שלפנ”ז, גם לא אצל הגדולים כו’ שידעו מתורת הקבלה ובודאי הרגישו אור המקיף דסובב – כי אצל יחידי סגולה אלה, גם שינתם היתה (לא רק) תוצאה מצד טבע הגוף, כ”א) מדריגה גבוה ביותר בעבודת ה’ (השייכת למקיפים דנייח). ולהער מרד”ל (ב”ר פ”ד, ט. וראה פד”א פ”ב) דבעת השינה הנשמה שואבת חיים מלמעלה.
וי”ל שהמאמר בפנים שייך לגילוי תורת חב”ד, שענינה להמשיך עניני פנימיות התורה באופן שגם השכל האנושי יוכל להשיגם, עד שיפעל על הגוף ונפש הטבעית כו’ – וע”ד נמשך המשך דסובב באופן שנרגש גם בגוף כפי שהוא בטבעו ובמהותו [שלכן תבע אדהא”מ ענין זה (העדר בטיפה) בטובה]. אצל החסידים (שיחה שבהערה 8). וראה ס’ השיחות תש”ה ע’ 33: דער מקיף פון סובב .. אלע קרעפטן דאס דערהערן זיך המקיף של סובב .. כולם יכולים להרגישו)**.
ובזה מובן ג”כ הטעם שעינין זה נתגלה ע”י אדמו”ר האמצעי דוקא – שענינו הוי להמשיך תורת החסידות באופן ד”בוינה” (סי’ השיחות תש”ה ע’ 60. וראה לקו”ש ח”ה ע’ 131. ועוד). לקו”ש אגרות-קודש ע’ שלז ואילך) – כי נוסף לזה שהמשכת המקיף בפנימיות שייכת ל”בינה”, אור בכלל, הנה המקיף דסוכה הוא “מקיף דבינה”.*) להעיר ממש”כ במ”א מחוי”ל (רש”י בהעלותך ח, ג. ועוד) בפ”ט צו’ לגה”צ שבחוץ של אהרן שלא יזו”ג – כי לכאורה תמוה, מאי קמ”ל, אלא – דאף שהרגיש כל הגיליונים שבעבודת המקדש מ”מ לא בטלו חושיו ע”י זה וההדבקה הגשמית היתה מדויקת בכל פרט ופרט (לקו”ש ח”ב ע’ 650).
**) ולכן גם אצל רבותינו נשיאינו (נש”י) ידוע היתה המשכה זו) היותה הנהגה בהתאם לזה (אף שפשוט שגם אצלם היתה השיגה ע”י המבואר בפנים הענין). ואכ”מ.The Rebbe also enters a pilpul to understand if, by not sleeping in the sukkah, one misses out on the mitzvah of ישיבה בסוכה. See there at length.
im not really paying attention to the discussion but one question here, the tannaim and amoraim were not “mitztaer” from the kedusha of sukka why should the random chabad guy (or even the rebbe)
How long can you (we) be arguing back and forth about the same thing??
What is your thoughts about the moshiach seuda, found any issue with it?This argument is so repetitive, it’s painful. I don’t really read the CR too often, but this thread got me interested, as I’ve always wondered about the Minhag to sleep outside the sukkah (and in fact, this thread did inform me on many things that I did not know too much about).
However, that was merely in the beginning; now, the rhetoric has descended to being reposts back and forth between MS and the rest, repeating the same Tainos<em/> to each other, and each side ignoring the other. (TBH, I particularly feel bad for MS, he clearly puts effort into his well-crafted and lengthy responses, and is now repeating the same thing time and time again.) Seems like it will be (to use the lashon of the gemorah) “chozeres chalilah” until they actually argue on what each other are saying, instead of repeating the same points again and again.
I’ll be misakem (summarize) the argument as I see it:
DY and the others claim the Chabad Minhag of sleeping outside the sukkah is against Shulchan Aruch, which states you must sleep inside the sukkah unless it is cold outside (or other exemptions, some of which are stated by other poskim, or given privately to people with extenuating circumstances).
MS agrees, (he also says it is against the SIMPLE understanding of the Shulchan Aruch and that the logic to do so seems weak), but being that this was the minhag of his rebbeim he follows it, notwithstanding the weak svarah to do so. He points to the Minhag of lighting indoors and eating outside the sukkah in shmini atzeres as examples of times when we go against the simple understanding of the Shulchan Aruch with weak svaros.
MS claims that if anything, the Chabad minhag is better as the Shulchan Aruch does lay credence to the idea of sleeping outside the sukkah, while it expressly states you must light indoors.
That is the first point I feel is being ignored: DaasYochid (and the others), what do you say to that? Do you agree that the Chabad minhag is *less* against the Shulchan Aruch?
The others respond to MS that the svarah of Chabad is weaker than the the svarah of those that light inside/eat outside, to which MS doesn’t agree. That is a subjective argument, with no answer. But it seems like DY and the others don’t understand the svarah at all, which MS has not explained at all. For my own question on MS – did the Tzaddikim of all the generations not sleep in the sukkah? And if they did, were they not holding on the level to feel “Makifin of Binah”? And if it is because they were so holy that them sleeping was “Makifin of Binah” was not a disgrace, do you concede that your Rebbe was less holy?
All in all, I seem to side with MS. All these minhagim go against Shulchan Aruch, and without our Tzaddikim, we would not be able to follow any of them. Making cheshbonos about what which svaros make less sense or more sense is illogical, they all don’t make sense, and our Tzaddikim felt it correct to so no matter what. The only question is, is how much does it go against the Shulchan Aruch, and for that, Chabad has the upper hand (however, still, the other minhagim should be followed, too).
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