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October 19, 2020 11:46 am at 11:46 am #1911262Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant
Ok, seems like many Jewish schools were not ready for the fall COVID season. Can we start helping them? For example, help them establish good ventilation – opening windows, installing MERV-13 filters, eliminating direct air flow from HVAC into people’s faces.
here is one idea (you may want to check with an HVAC expert first):
you can get $100+ CO2 and PPM (for different particle sizes) measurement device like Temtop M2000C and bring to school. Measuring CO2 level when people are there will show how much air is recirculated. Then, try increasing air intake into HVAC, opening windows or at least door to the corridor and see if CO2 goes down. May also check specific locations under air flow. PPM in presence of ventilation and closed windows will show you whether HVAC filters filter out any particles comparing with PPM without ventilation. If windows are open, PPM level will be affected by higher PPM from outside. I tried this in a couple of offices and shuls, and results were useful to ascertain effect of all actions described above.October 20, 2020 9:36 am at 9:36 am #1911642GadolhadorahParticipantInspections of several schools in the red zones which were operating showed that aside from the obvious lack of mask-wearing, desks were NOT spaced apart even 5 feet and that buildings with gas-fired forced air heating systems were Not using even MERV 13 air filters. If they cannot take even these minimal precautions, how can the be trusted with children. These are simple, low-cost measures that even the most mindless administrator should have required if they wanted to open.
October 20, 2020 11:21 am at 11:21 am #1911699lilaParticipantMany schools installed polycarbonate barriers on the desks which was an option for social distancing instead of placing the desks six feet apart. This conformed with NYS guidelines.
October 20, 2020 11:27 am at 11:27 am #1911716đ«Syag LchochmaParticipantGH – Always a pleasure to hear your ivory tower version of life in the shtetl. And i know i can always count on you for a degrading news update on the yeshiva life. Waiting for the day when you can find such commentary on some of “your own” institutions, or preferably, decide to move forward from needing to be the charedi life watch dog.
đOctober 20, 2020 3:28 pm at 3:28 pm #1911883Avram in MDParticipantGadolhadorah,
“Inspections of several schools in the red zones which were operating showed that aside from the obvious lack of mask-wearing, desks were NOT spaced apart even 5 feet and that buildings with gas-fired forced air heating systems were Not using even MERV 13 air filters.”
The violation notices posted on YWN mainly state that children were heard inside. How are you privy to all of this additional information? Are you just assuming these things are so?
October 20, 2020 5:32 pm at 5:32 pm #1911910Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipantIt may be that schools were in denial, hoping that virus is going down, but they will have to address it now.
lila – barriers are great for protection against direct spitting. This does not solve the problem of aerosol floating around. Installing filters is good but may not be enough. Opening windows, where possible, and increasing intake of fresh air into HVAC has to be done. Maybe talk with government about subsidies for extra heat for the winter while keeping windows open?
Also, discipline is required to maintain masking at schools – a lot of well-meaning teachers would lower mask, go into child cube, cough around … if anyone has hybrid learning days, look at the video.
October 20, 2020 6:12 pm at 6:12 pm #1911941lilaParticipantIn terms of social distancing: NYS guidelines stated that schools could choose:masks all day, polycarbonate barriers attached to desks and students wear masks when not in their barriers, or six feet of separation between desks and students wear masks when not at their desks. The guidelines also required adequate ventilation i.e. windows and doors open. Gadolhatorah stated that schools didnât have sufficient space between desks. My point is that if the school installed the barriers then they werenât required to have six feet of space between desks. Schools that conformed with NYS guidelines spent thousands of dollars on these barriers. Iâm not saying that every school developed a plan that conformed to the state guidelines but itâs not nice to disparage the schools who are making extreme efforts to keep their schools open safely.
October 20, 2020 6:29 pm at 6:29 pm #1911945đ«Syag LchochmaParticipantI agree with lila. I’m waiting to hear where GH got all that “inside scoop”. Spies, talebearers? I sure hope you didn’t just make it up and present it as fact.
October 20, 2020 7:42 pm at 7:42 pm #1911951Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipantI don’t know about guidelines, but I think indoors mask-less rooms with children being there for hours, either separated or with barriers, are way too risky. Both because HVAC will not take aerosols away quickly enough, and because kids will pretty get into each other faces with direct contact.
Did someone with such arrangements have experience with an outbreak? how many positives resulted from one infection?
If your community is isolated, spatially from other Jews and culturally from non-Jews, and you do not have current cases, what might help is a early warning system to prevent asymptomatic transmission going thru the school – isolate any potential case in families that have kids in the school: anyone who has a family member coughing, sneezing, visited hotspots – stay home or/and takes a test. Parents or school should establish this yourself, not waiting for the government in the slow contact tracing. You already know who the contacts are.
October 20, 2020 9:28 pm at 9:28 pm #1911960RavaParticipantIf you don’t like it don’t send your kids and just stay away from people with kids. The parents obviously don’t care.
October 20, 2020 9:40 pm at 9:40 pm #1911967Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant@Rava, I am fine, thanks.
I am a parent. My kids are at home. I do care about other parents and kids.October 21, 2020 8:31 am at 8:31 am #1912078RavaParticipantIts nice that you care but you still can’t dictate what risks other people are allowed to take, we have a shas that does that for us, and rabbanim and rosh yeshivas will apply those rules for their institutions as they deem fit
October 21, 2020 9:52 am at 9:52 am #1912109Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipant@Rava, I am not dictating anything, I am just providing information for people to discuss. You are absolutely right re:Shas.
Gemora is full of minute discussion on how to operate in the world under different conditions. 6 FT v. 4 Amot … You can look up R Akiva Eger and other authorities on pandemics, this is not the first one.
And also how to deal with uncertainty – when to be stricter, when to be more lenient; and with differences in opinion. Right now, we are operating under extreme uncertainty, where best minds in the world, combined, often disagree. So, it is not surprising that different people and different talmidei hahamim disagree. We will come to a joint opinion, eventually, but it will be too late for many, including all Rabbanim who passed away.
One example – you are not supposed to correct a teacher in advance, if it is an issue midrabanan. You can ask later. I think pikuach nefesh is m’duaraita. So, if you rely on the Rosh Yeshiva, you can at least ask him – what information he used to select current measures and why he thinks they are appropriate, and what system is in place to react when there are cases. I am sure, some will respond that they consulted a doctor or a researcher. Some consulted several.
October 21, 2020 11:25 am at 11:25 am #1912169GadolhadorahParticipantIn addition to physical improvements to the school HVAC systems, plexiglass enclosures, etc. there should be some effort made to provide teachers with additional training on remote instruction, whether via Zoom or even over phonelines, depending on the hashkafah of the school. Given how sudden the shutdowns occurred last March it was incredible how well many schools managed. Hopefully, we won’t have to be dealing with remote learning a year from now but ALL schools should provide both teachers, parents and students the needed resources to learn remotely, should th need arise again.
October 21, 2020 12:24 pm at 12:24 pm #1912191Always_Ask_QuestionsParticipantGH – a good point. Some schools do a couple of days at school and a couple of days at home. Not sure how realistic is this with many kids in the family. Maybe with shorter days, have all kids at home Friday and Monday when there is an increasing chance of an outbreak? This might reduce asymptomatic transmission with a 4 day break
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