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Real mechila when you’ve been seriously wronged is tough to do.
I may have THOUGHT I was mochel, but I realized I still remember and feel it.
Now I know that Hashem forgives you if you forgive others, and I know that it’s healthier for you yourself to let it go.
I am also aware that the person is a shaliach from Hashem.
And the person is not asking for mechila.
But realistically, how has anyone here actually been successful with the really bad ones with irreparable damage that has been caused to your family? Where you remain with nothing but goodwill towards them?
I really need to get this done, especially at this time of year.
TIA
I once had a real hard time forgiving someone who literally made my life miserable. I was a young teen, and somehow, she turned ALL of my friends against me, spread rumors like I had a breakdown r”l etc. When I thought I really forgave her, somehow, the pain always came back.
Fortunately, two years later, one of my friends realized that I still bore a grudge on her, and let her know about it. She asked for mechilla and I was mochel her. (that in itself made me be her mochel to see that she realized she’d done something wrong). We are currently best friends!
AYC, I really admire you for forgiving them. I do think however, that until the guilty party ASKS for mechilla, it’s very hard to forgive. Maybe you can ask someone to let them know that you feel hurt. Would that work?
Hatzlacha rabba and a gut yahr.
Not only does this person gave to ask you for Mechila, (s)he has reconcile and appease you. If the person does not regret their action, there is no Chiyuv for you to be Mochel. It is also impossible.
You think about how by forgiving people: your neshama is cleansed ,you go up one madreiga and Adquire great merit for yourself . Every person is a shliach from Hashem and the hardest mitzvos are the source of the greatest reward. By not forgiving the person 100% you become attached to the attribute of din ….you become an accuser like the Satan lo Aleinu and liabable for punishment for delaying redemption like in the kamsa and bar kamsa story were one party refused to let go of hatred.
Please hasten our redemption and free youself .
BTW I was a victim of abuse and was never asked for mechila ,I’m pasing a long what helped me grow and heal and live good life B”H! ALL is from Hashem and after 120 we see it all is a test.
I also had this problem and asked a rav what to do about it. I think he said something like if you’re already asking this question than you’ve forgiven them. Yes, it still might hurt and it’s allowed to hurt still but you’ve forgiven them already.
I’m not so sure this makes a lot of sense to me since I really do still question whether I’ve forgiven them even though like 3 or 4 r”h and y”k have passed and I wonder if there really is a way for me to know…
Did anyone hear Mrs. Goldstein, from the Bamboo Cradle speak about this topic. she said an amazing story. She was a girl in sem and some other girl who was there decided that it was her duty to keep on reminding her about her heritage and where she came from….she got up on a table one day and told everyone that this Goldstein girl is gonna be the last to get married…. because shes really a Chinese…. obviously Hashem showed her who’s in charge and she got married years before this girl. One day this girl called her for mechila and she forgave her wholeheartedly. The girl got engaged shortly after and she made sure to be at that chuppa. You have to hear it from her but I was almost crying when she told it to us.
Haleivi: I disagree. It is very much possible to be mochel someone who neither seeks it nor cares that he wronged you.
It is one of the most difficult things to do.
http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/asking-mechila
This may have no basis in reality, but here is a hope that I have:
Not only does this person gave to ask you for Mechila, (s)he has reconcile and appease you. If the person does not regret their action, there is no Chiyuv for you to be Mochel. It is also impossible.
so why do we say in tefillas zaka that we forgive everyone?
I say that I forgive my father every year before Rosh Hashanah, and I try to do it sincerely, but every year, I realize that I need to say it again. Does it mean I really don’t forgive him? I’m not sure. But every year, I forgive him for the past year. What happens the next year is irrelevant. So I will forgive him again for this year.
Being Mochel doesn’t mean you no longer feel pain. It’s okay to be hurt and it’s even okay to sometimes be upset at the person. Being Mochel someone is acknowledging that they wronged you and saying “Even so, I am willing to pretend like it didn’t happen so that this person does not have a strike against him/her in Hashem’s chart.” There are higher levels and everyone is different obviously, but the minimum form of Mechila is you telling Hashem that even though this person wronged you, you no longer feel that they deserve to be punished on your behalf.
Really strange (I think atleast). I let a friend know that there were still things that weren’t 100% between us and that maybe we should discuss it before r”h being that I didn’t want to go into it holding a grudge against her, c”v but she didn’t answer me at all.
Does anyone think this is strange? I really wanted to be mochel her and am trying so hard to do without speaking to her but it is very difficult for me.
Any other ideas of what I can do before r”h?
Thank you!
Without righting the wrong; asking for m’chila is worthless. Even Hashem says, “V’heishiv es ha’gezeila”. First you return what you stole, and then you can ask for forgiveness.
I dont know if anyone else ever experienced anything like this but sometimes when your good friend doesnt tell you that she’s dating or getting engaged its painful. You are close friends and you told her from the beginning but then when it comes to her going out she doesnt tell you. Its not like she doesnt tell anyone- she told your other friend but not you! so painful!
No one should tell friends they are dating or about to get engaged.
Very often people are embrrassed to reconcile, even though they do realize and regret what they did. It is not hard to be Mochel such a person. In Halacha, though, it only talks about someone who approached you.
There are many levels of Lifnim Meshuras Haddin. Some tried to Mochel even those that said, or thought, Echte Ve’ashuv. However, there are stories of great men who weren’t Mochel people. The main thing is, if someone regrets what he did, and it is after the hurt, you should be Mochel him and don’t be an Achzor.
We all know the greatness of Tzeddaka. When a poor person comes to you, you can give a quarter, a dollar, five dollars or your shirt. I’m sure you’ll praise someone who gives the greatest amount, but you can be a Tzaddik without doing that.
I have a family member who is a teacher. She worked for a school for many, many years. A few years ago, something happened in the school, and a number of teachers were told they wouldn’t be returning the next year, or some left on their own, including my relative.
After this happened, the school stopped paying them for the rest of the school year. It wasn’t because of a lack of funds, it was because they knew they didn’t need them back the next year (this was proved).
A number of teachers went and called the school administrator to a din Torah. He never showed up. The beis din gave them permission to go to court over the matter, and they filed a lawsuit.
In my relative’s case, the amount owed is in the tens of thousands of dollars. She did not join the lawsuit because she felt it was wrong. The people controlling the money never asked for forgiveness.
How can you forgive someone like that? Who knowingly does wrong, and continues to do so? In such a case, there is no chiyuv to forgive, but still, you’d like to forgive those you don’t have to. In this case, I don’t know how it can be forgiven.
u only know one side of that story though
There is a huge difference between forgiving and forgetting. It is easier to forgive than forget, but it is almost impossible to forget if you don’t forgive. In addition just because one forgives someone that does NOT necessarily mean that you pick up the relationship where you left off.
Why is it important to forgive? Not forgiving keeps us chained to that person forever. It takes a lot of energy to hold that grudge and be angry at someone. Choosing never to forgive someone means that you are forcing yourself to remember that person and choosing to be angry at them consistently reminding yourself of what that person did to you. “I will never forgive “x” for ……. and so on. This is a daily process almost from waking to going to sleep. Every morning you wake up and remind yourself how angry you are at so and so because of what they did, and if someone so much as mentions that person’s name or you see someone who lives on their block, or goes to the same school, or reminds you of them in some way, shape, or form, you will remind yourself again of why you will never forgive them for…….. On the other hand, that person probably doesn’t care, doesn’t remember, or doesn’t even know that you are angry. One of the three, and does not expend any energy in this disagreement at all. While you are busy thinking about them every day, they don’t give you a second thought while they go about their business. Which in turn makes you even more upset.
So look at both sides of the coin here. By not forgiving the “victim” relives the pain over and over and over again, while the “initiator” is not affected by the entire controversy at all and does not suffer one iota from the entire incident. Who is worse off and who is better off? What happens through the process of forgiving?
When a person chooses to forgive whether they tell the other party that they are forgiven or not, what happens is they free themselves from that prison of pain. They no longer HAVE to remember the hurt and the injustice done to them. They can now choose to put that person out of their hearts and out of their minds. That person is no longer important to them and is no longer a player in their world. This in turn allows them to heal and gives them an opportunity to forget the entire affair. It is impossible to forget the incident as long as you are still angry and choose to not to forgive. No matter how much a person claims that the initiator is not important to them, subconsciously they are because they are the key player in pain process.
I hope this was helpful in some way, and that you will be able to logically “choose” to forgive even though you can’t emotionally choose to forgive. Forgiveness is a choice. “I choose to forgive you, him, her because it just takes too much energy to be angry at you….I can’t control other people, only myself and I can’t change other people only myself therefor I can’t control what you do or did. I don’t have to like you or be your friend but I can choose to like myself enough to NOT relive the pain of the incident over and over again. I therefore forgive your lack of common sense, your streak of meanness, your need to speak loshon horah (or whatever else it was) because you are in control of your own poor choices and there is nothing I can do about it other than learn never to make those same bad choices in my own life”.
I have found that for things that don’t just happen once and go away, mentally preparing yourself in advance creates a sort of coating so it doesn’t get to you the same way. Walk into the situation and think _____ will probably happen three times but its ok.
(Maybe easier said than done)
Hatzlacha
I’m sorry AYC, I’ve been busy and didn’t have time to look here.
Understanding that we have choices is the first step.
Understanding that we can only control ourselves and not others is the second.
What can we do (I do) in a situation I have no control of? Should I just accept the way things are? Is there anything I can do to fix it? What kind of support would I need to accomplish this?
If there is no way to fix the situation, do I just accept it? Do I allow this situation to ruin my life and continue to hurt me? Do I choose to recognize that there is nothing I can do about it but choose to give it over to Hashem. Hashem is the ultimate score keeper. He will either make her stop or punish her for what she is doing. Do I have the faith and bitachon to allow Hashem to handle this for me? Do I choose to cut myself loose from this pain and distraction in my life and forgive her so that I can move on and forget about her? Or am I going to be so caught up in it that I allow her not only to control the situation but to control my life and be a part of it, hurting me every day?
I am in control of MY own actions. I can choose what I want to do. I can choose to NOT allow this person to drag me down into her nonsense. I have three choices here. 1. I can choose to confront her either alone or through halachic or legal means to attempt to force her to stop. 2. I can allow her to control me and my emotions till she chooses to stop on her own. 3. I can make a choice for myself and give this up to Hashem to deal with and cut her out of my life.
When we choose to move forward and not stay stuck in the past or in the bad feelings or the bad situation, the people around us react to the change in us. In other words if someone else mentions her the reaction would be “I would rather not discuss her, she is no longer a part of my life. Yes I know she talks about me, but for the life of me I can’t understand why and don’t plan on wasting any energy trying to figure that one out.” What will your friends think of that change? After you say it a few times, do you think your friends will still bring her up in conversation?
If you keep telling them that you don’t forgive her or will never forgive her, they will try to make peace, or subconsciously bring her name up to see your reaction. If there is no reaction, there is no purpose in bringing her name up. So if you choose to move on and say “I have moved on lets change the subject”, that is one thing less they have to yenta about. You will be putting out the fire at your end and eventually she will have to find another topic or victim for her nasty attitude.
How do you do it? It is YOUR choice. You have to choose.
aries: Wow. Brilliantly put. But sometimes, it’s so hard to actually do it in practice. I am currently struggling with trying to push someone out of my mind. At times I’m successful, and sometimes… I just keep on thinking about her, what she thinks about me, how she’s doing, is she badmouthing me? It’s so hard to get out of that whirlwind of thoughts. I know it’s my choice. And in this case I chose to forget…But it’s not always easy. How do I just go on?
Two years ago,on Rosh Hashana/Yom Kippur, I asked Hashem earnestly to help me forgive relatives who hurt me….Hashem heard my tefilos and over the course of the year,many connections were THUS renewed.
Then guess what?
My oldest son became a chosson, and I NOW HAD A WHOLE FAMILY TO CELEBRATE WITH!(The Chasuna was beautiful,b”h)
A Word of Caution: You cannot tell someone ELSE when or whom to forgive!!! It needs to come from one’s heart — when the person himself/herself feels READY to undertake it.
I would find it easier to forgive if the person who hurt me were to stop withholding important information from me for no apparent reason, or at least give an honest answer as to why he can’t/won’t give me the information. Once it is rectified, I have no reason to hold a grudge anymore.
V’hameyvin yavin.
am yisrael chai: NOT Everyone can be forgiven, I agree. The few who were DIRECTLY RESPONSIBLE for terrible, irreparable damage, and not just “auxilliary” chess pieces in the game,I leave to Hashem, but there’s nothing whatsoever to base mechila on.
And those who say “forgive them for yourself”, are confusing Torah and Christianity.Should we move forward, and live life to the fullest? YES!!!
But certain evil deeds are simply unforgiveable. You just try not to dwell on it, so you can enjoy the good life you finally have.
Good life = health, children, friends, joy,a Torah life, and being abuse-free at last.
It’s not defined by ongoing money struggles, or any kind of perfection; no one has it all. No one. We must believe that.
I don’t know… Deep down I find it pretty hard to forgive certain people..
Forgiveness is difficult, but it’s a necessary part of finding wholeness in life.
I’ve learned to forgive those who have hurt me, because I believe that those who have hurt me did so out of their own callous disregard for other people and their feelings. I believe that those who hurt me will have to answer to G-d on the yom hadin for their sins, and I think that if you could commit others to the judgment and mercy of G-d, then you’ve done a good job of letting go.
My negative experiences largely come from having dated. I dated some real losers over the years, including those with defects of character and mental illness, but I think that you live and learn. I’ve had the opportunity to witness the ugliest aspects of human nature in those situations, and I’m glad, because now I know to not be as trusting and accepting as I once was.
The deepest wounds feel like they’ll last a lifetime: The absent mother who robbed you of the mother-daughter bond you craved and deserved. The eighth-grade bully who turned the classroom into a living nightmare.
You feel bitter. You still hold a grudge. But clinging to those betrayals and disappointments, that hurt, is bad for the body and mind.It’s inevitable that we’ll all be hurt by others, and that it will happen often. People have accidents, make mistakes, behave selfishly, and even intentionally try to hurt one another. We can’t escape it. Forgiveness is a vulnerable act that can feel like it opens us up to more pain. But we need to have a way to process and let go of the effects of injury, or we risk serious physical and emotional consequences.
Indeed, experts say that forgiving those who have wronged us helps lower blood pressure, cholesterol, and heart rate. One study found that forgiveness is associated with improved sleep quality, which has a strong effect on health. And Duke University researchers report a strong correlation between forgiveness and strengthened immunity among HIV-positive patients. The benefits aren’t just limited to the physical, either: Letting go of old grudges reduces levels of depression, anxiety, and anger. People who forgive tend to have better relationships, feel happier and more optimistic, and overall, enjoy better psychological well-being.
so even though its hard, open your mind to the possibility of forgivness and see where it takes you.
The deepest wounds feel like they’ll last a lifetime: The absent mother who robbed you of the mother-daughter bond you craved and deserved. The eighth-grade bully who turned the classroom into a living nightmare.
You feel bitter. You still hold a grudge. But clinging to those betrayals and disappointments, that hurt, is bad for the body and mind.It’s inevitable that we’ll all be hurt by others, and that it will happen often. People have accidents, make mistakes, behave selfishly, and even intentionally try to hurt one another. We can’t escape it. Forgiveness is a vulnerable act that can feel like it opens us up to more pain. But we need to have a way to process and let go of the effects of injury, or we risk serious physical and emotional consequences.
Indeed, experts say that forgiving those who have wronged us helps lower blood pressure, cholesterol, and heart rate. One study found that forgiveness is associated with improved sleep quality, which has a strong effect on health. And Duke University researchers report a strong correlation between forgiveness and strengthened immunity among HIV-positive patients. The benefits aren’t just limited to the physical, either: Letting go of old grudges reduces levels of depression, anxiety, and anger. People who forgive tend to have better relationships, feel happier and more optimistic, and overall, enjoy better psychological well-being.
so even though its hard, open your mind to the possibility of forgiveness and see where it takes you.
When someone hurts your children it’s not so simple.
Bingo! I have such a hard forgiving people who have not only hurt but damaged my children. And like someone mentioned, it is very hard to forgive people who will not admit they were wrong (or abusive), have no intentions of changing and are still hurting others.
I am trying to figure out just what it is that I can’t let go of so that maybe I can work on it. If it is just the pure injustice of it all, than perhaps that is a bitachon issue. I know I cannot stand watching them continue destroying young children while everyone hides their heads in the sand.
Syag Lchochma….Hashem is very patient…even with resha’im…
eclipse – I am guessing you mean he is giving the man/men time to catch on and change their ways? But children are being hurt while people throw roses. Why does this make me so angry that forgiveness isn’t an option? I am not like that generally. I have accepted illness, death, tragedy and poverty with no complaints to Hashem and no questions. Why does this eat me up? I can’t believe it is that I am questioning Hashem’s justice or wondering why good people suffer. I have never been that way. I would love to rid myself of this but I can’t seem to find the trigger yet.
“I am the master of my fate I am the captain of my soul”
You just reminded me of how much I always loved this poem.
Yes Oomis it is a favorite of mine.
Thought it was worth printing in its entirety…About the resilience of the human spirit in the face of great challenges of life.
“Invictus” – by William Ernest Henley
Out of the night that covers me,
Black as the Pit from pole to pole,
I thank whatever gods may be
For my unconquerable soul.
In the fell clutch of circumstance
I have not winced nor cried aloud.
Under the bludgeonings of chance
My head is bloody, but unbowed.
Beyond this place of wrath and tears
Looms but the Horror of the shade,
And yet the menace of the years
Finds, and shall find, me unafraid.
It matters not how strait the gate,
How charged with punishments the scroll.
I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.
Syag,
I’m not at all privy to your situation, I don’t know any details, but it could be it’s a bit harder to accept wholeheartedly when another person is involved. He is viewed as the the “source” of the misery, pain, hurt. I too was dealt a strong blow from a “human” some time ago, I really should know and realize Who was behind that “potsh”, Who ordained and planned it, but it doesn’t come so easily, it still hurts. The heart and mind are in two different places. It takes a lot of mussar and training to get to realize that. And once I do, I suppose the hurt will be less.
I wish you a full nechamah, closure, consolation over your pain.
Syag: My heart is with you.Some things only Hashem can resolve.
In response to the title of this thread.
It’s very hard or maybe even impossible to forgive someone, unless they truly realize that they did something wrong. They also must first understand and recognize the damage that they caused.
And then, they also have to ask forgiveness.
Correction: I meant BEFORE not unless.
Before they truly realize, etc etc….
sharp – exactly! But some peopleare too arrogent to admit they were wrong, even to themselves. Even when the facts slap them in the face they will tell you you are a pathetic parent in denial who can’t fathom their gadlus. As they continue hurting more and more children/parents.
Hey guyz it’s me, yummy cupcake! i haven’t been on here in ages cuz for some reason i could not log on with my password, so finally i made myself a new email acct… this conversation really struck me, as this year i went thru a relationship that really hurt me, and that I still think about a lot, and i still hurt. Recently I went to a speech that was given by a frum psychologist. The speech was about forgiveness, and it was a real eye- opener. I cannot do justice to his speech, but basically what he said was: Yes we encourage forgiveness, and yes it is a beautiful thing that has powers you can’t even imagine, and yes it is a very healing thing, BUT it would be detrimental for someone to forgive another person if they really don’t feel ready to forgive, because it invalidates your feelings, and you teach yourself that it’s ok that ppl are hurting you, you just have to pretend your fine and move on. THAT IS NOT HEALTHY. He said if you are not ready to forgive someone, come yom kippur, DON’T FORGIVE THEM. if you are worried that Hashem will not forgive you or the person you hurt, don’t worry. If the person asked you for forgiveness 3 times, and you still can’t, Hashem sees that he tried, he did what the Torah requires, and Hashem will forgive him. If you really feel you can’t forgive the person, well, Hashem was the One Who put you in whatever situation hurt you, and He understands our machshavos and feelings, and if He sees you sincerely want to forgive the person, but you just feel you can’t, He will forgive you too. If you are worried that the other person will suffer because you can’t forgive him, just beg Hashem- say to Him “Hashem, I really want to forgive so and so, but I really feel I can’t right now, just please don’t make him suffer because of me” Hashem will see you’re sincere. If someone hurts you, it’s painful. It can hurt for years. The amazing thing about yiddishkeit is that we are not forced to do something we are not ready to do. (disclaimer: this doesn’t mean you should just go about your life and not forgive ppl. forgiveness has tremendous powers, and if you can forgive someone, that is an amazing level you have come to. i am writing about those situations in which someone truly feels they have not come to terms with whatever happened and they really feel they are not ready to forgive). And another thing this speaker said- if you cannot forgive right now, DO NOT FEEL GUILTY. that is also very detrimental. Give yourself some more time to think about whatever is bothering you. If you can’t forgive before Yom Kippur, don’t. you can even wait till next yom kippur. until whenever. it doesn’t matter. And i can’t find which post it was, but whoever said that some gedolim have never given mechila for certain things, i know he is right, cuz i just heard one of those stories. Pain is a real thing, if you feel it, it’s not healthy to just cover it up and pretend it’s not there. If it’s there, express it in a healthy way. when you feel you can, forgive. Hashem loves you regardless.
I can reset the password if you want
G-d is described as being the One who pardons all our iniquities and is slow to chide and swift to bless (as in the yud gimmel middot).
Our mission in this world is to strive to emulate Him. Being godly and having a godly soul mandates that we be like G-d in our actions and dealings with all people. Since G-d’s forgiveness and love are without limit and have the potential to radically transform lives in ways beyond our comprehension, in emulating Him, we are duty bound to forgive. Without offering forgiveness to others, we are living lives that do not witness to and reflect G-d’s nature.
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