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Several years ago I had a lot of pain two months after giving birth. I went to the ER and they determined it was caused by gallstones. They wanted to remove my gallbladder. I declined and discharged myself from the hospital. I modified my diet to avoid fatty and sugary foods.
A few weeks ago I had another attack (several years after the first in incident) and again went to the ER. The sonogram showed stones. This time the blood test showed elevated levels of liver enzymes and billyruben, and they were afraid a stone was stuck in the bile duct so they admitted me to the hospital. Since the MRI was inconclusive whether there was a stone stuck, they wanted to do an ERCP to clear it. I stalled on the ERCP, and since further blood tests showed the elevated levels of liver enzymes and billyruben were coming down and improving, the doctors agreed to forgo the ERCP, assuming the stone naturally passed through the duct already.
Though, the doctors still wanted to surgically remove the gallbladder, to prevent further reoccurences. I declined the surgery in the hospital and was advised to schedule it after being discharged.
I’ve read testimonials by various people attesting of natural means to rid oneself of the stones without surgically removing the gallbladder. It might be called a gallbladder flush. Does anyone have experiance or knowledge of this? Is it safe to live with gallstones? Can removing the gallbladder be safely avoided?
it will happen again with pregnancy. i had mine taken out…very easy recovery. very small amount of scar…VERY worth not being in that pain again
How big are your stones. It might be dangerous to try to handle this one on your own. Stones that are small enough to easily pass into your pancreas can be fatal c”v . Why don’t you go to a specialist outside of the ER for a consultation and then perhaps go for a second opinion.
Alot of people postpone the surgery with natural stuff for many years and then they end up having to do it anyway. If your a candidate, I would recommend not waiting.
By the way were you terribly itchy in pregnancy?
My husband tried a flush years ago. We’re not even sure if he had gallstones, but I will say that the treatment left him weak for a few days afterwards. He has a very strong constitution, but he was really laid flat by the process.
Even if you do the flush there is no guarantee that you will not have recurrence of the gallstones. There are obviously risks with surgery, the biggest probably being a stone getting stuck in the duct as they remove the gallbladder. There are options for surgery now like laparoscopic, which is not as involved as the open procedure and I would imagine has a shorter recovery.
I had a very similar experience as you and, after having the diagnosis made after blood tests following an attack that showed my elevated enzymes, the doctor sent me for an ultrasound, which showed the stones, and then I realized that I had actually been having lots of small attacks for a long time, especially on Sundays. For some reason they stopped – I wasn’t necessarily particular about a low-fat diet or anything like that.
I do remember that there are increased problems when a diabetic has gallbladder problems. My father’s became gangrenous and they had to do emergency surgery to take it out.
What are your hesitations about surgery or the other procedure you mentioned? I would say that having something done is more advisable when you’re NOT having an attack and it’s not an emergency.
Refuah Shleimah!
stuck -like the stones are Stuck in the pouch or tubes that go into the pouch?
As a medical professional I know of different options, but I see no reason to recommend them without a good reason. Why don’t you want to have the gallbladder removed laprascopically? It can be done as an outpatient in most cases. You need to have G.A. (knocked out), but that’s no big deal. Once it’s removed you usually don’t have any problems in life from this.
I had mine removed laprascopically at 15 (I had lost over 90 pounds b’h and that was my body’s reaction).
I had over 1000 stones that were heading towards the bile duct. Aside from a few tiny scars and general weakness for about a week-it was the smartest thing I did…don’t be scared 🙁
No, I didn’t have mine taken out because I stopped having attacks. If I did, though, I would have it taken out. A sick part of the body is not helpful and is not fulfilling its purpose, so in my opinion it should get out. I agree with the posters that it is worth the week or so of recovery (I had a C-section and I don’t think it can be compared to that). Even with a flush, because the tendency to create the stones still exists in the body, they can come back.
Seek a second and even third opinion. If they all concur, get it out. While the body does need a gall bladder (just as we really DO need our tonsils), one can live without it. If all it does is make you sick, listen to the medical wisdom.
Stuck, I’m over here in EY. Just to explain a little more, all of the attacks that I was aware of were right after childbirth or while pregnant, so I thought that they were related to that. Then I had an attack when my son was 4 months old and I was not yet pregnant again. That was when I went to the doctor. I never saw anybody more than my PCP at the time. Strangely enough, after the diagnosis was made is when I stopped having attacks and I never saw a surgeon or anybody else regarding this issue. I would have no hesitation to go to one though if I had recurrence. It might be interesting to do a repeat ultrasound of the gallbladder though at this stage, just to see what’s going on in there. By the way, that boy is now 14 years old, so it has been awhile.
I have to agree with oomis’ comment. If the gallbladder is sick (full of stones) then it can’t perform the function that it was put there to do, and should come out.
One more thing to consider. Surgery is regular, full blown, open cut surgery if you come to the ER in the middle of an attack. Otherwise you can usually do it with using the laprascopic technology. You cant compare the recovery.
Stuck, if you are insistent on avoiding surgery, you could try the flush and see if you can get an ultrasound afterwards to see if there are any stones left.
I would definitely recommend diet modification, especially since you say that your attacks seem to be diet-related. Mine were mostly after Shabbos, but I didn’t changed my Shabbos diet and didn’t have any more attacks, so it wasn’t really diet-related in my case.
My husband is a self-diagnoser and he was having upper gastric pain. So since we knew that I had gallstones, he figured he did also (ishto k’gufo – LOL). Anyway, he did a flush, was very week for a few days afterwards and did seem to stop having some pains, but he never had an ultrasound before to see if there were in face gallstones. A few years later, he was pain again (not sure if it was exactly the same pain) and I made him go to the real doctors (not the internet kind) and he did have an ultrasound, which showed that he did NOT in fact have gallstones at that time. I would tend to think that if he had had them in the first place then he would have already started having them come back since once you have been shown to have them, your body continues to make them, so the gallbladder would start to fill up again. So really, in the end, I can’t tell you if the flush helped him or not. He’s really the kind who is willing to try any of the alternative remedies before running to doctors, so I’m not sure if this is advice that’s applicable to you.
In my opinion, doctors push you to do what doctors can do for you (have surgery). If you want to try the flush, I would say go ahead, but not if you’re in a full blown attack. Really at that stage, the stone can get stuck in the duct and you could be looking at a medical emergency. If you do the flush, try to get another ultrasound and see if there has been any change. If no change, then you’ll have to decide whether or not to have surgery. The doctors are concerned that what I mentioned could happen – the stone will get stuck in the duct and then you have real problems, so again, better to have surgery when you’re not in a full blown attack.
Seriously, someone I had the displeasure to know just peygered (he was a goy and a rosho, so pardon the language) from gallstone related pancreatitis in Moscow where his treatment was probably botched.
Someone else I know grew up without a father because his father passed away from this at a very young age RL.
Don’t play around. Rav Blumenkranz AH called alternative medicine kishuf veavodo zoro. A flush is for your radiator. Get real treatment from real doctors, which in this case means laparoscopic surgery. I know someone who was back to running his new business the day after he had his gallbladder removed this way. That’s better than what happened in the cases above.
Unishmartem meoid es nafshoiseichem.
800 Kilobear -There are other treatments like Actigall -takes upto two years and only works half the time. They can do lithrotripsy (ultrasound breaking up the stones) -this works about 35% of the time. Now they have Gastros that will go in there during endoscopy and zap them with either laser or US.
Who knows what the complications are? I wouldn’t recommend this.
The easiest way to treat this disease is with laparoscopic surgery. I viewed quite a few and it’s a real simple procedure with a very low rate of complications.
it is very dangerous to not take care of gal stones they leave the gal blatter and attack other organs i know somebody personally who never took care of it eventally the pain went away but yrs later it came bk in the form of cancer and it was too late to do anything at that point
and somebody else who it was not diagnosed right away it left her gal blatter and did get stuck in the bil duck and effected other organs she was very sick
I sometimes wonder if doctors push unnecessary medical procedures for reasons of expediency rather than strictly medical necessity or fear of liability or financial considerations rather than medical considerations or simply because the doctor is unaware of less intrusive but equally effective options. I know others have this concern too, though I have no reason to suspect that any of these are a valid concern in the above discussion.
Warm water sipped slowly throughout the day may help relieve the pain. I am a sonographer.
I know that if you are in pain, those stones may be very pointy or sharp and hurt when they pass through the narrow neck of the gallbladder. a burst gallbladder slit open by a sharp stone can pur bile all over your viscera (insides) esentially causing a very bad burn.
Extremely unsafe to leave dangerous (large or pointy)stones in. Theree are two options: if the stones can be pulverized by a lazer like ultrasound they may turn into a sluge(powder that settles into a goopy liquid) and may pass naturally with no pain,
If you can’t do that the safest thing is to remove the gallblader. Youre body can survive without it. The former common bile duct (pasegway out of the gallbladder will extend and take overacring as a gallbladder substitute.
as a sonographer I can tell you just because a test is inconclusive doesn’t mean the stone isn’t there.
A clear picture may be imposible to take due to the body’s gas
clouding the picture, essentially causing “static” making the picture unclear.
A flush is for someone who has teeny tiny stones or calcium deposits that may eventually become stones, not for someone in accute pain. Pain is a bracha for it signals that something is very wrong.
If you weigh possible death rm”l(if the gallbladder bursts) due to bile leaking into your viscera (think: burst appendix)against a simple small operation- that may take les time than a root canal-
I think the answer is obvious.
Think about it:
Are you the type to not have a root canal or a tooth pulled if needed because hashem built us with a certain ammount of teeth in our body?
Bracha vhatzlacha
What are the risks if you decline surgery?
go back and actually read the previous posts
Google – coconut oil gallstones
Google: “WD-40 gallstones” and don’t forget “Bernard Madoff investments” while you are at it :(.
It is time to clear the frum community of this counterculture alternative medicine nonsense once and for all. That includes fake mekubalim as well as fake alternative cures.
I don’t know if “alternative” medicine came in with the influx of former counterculture baalei tshuva (some of whom are the parents of OTD children because they themselves never really made the full jump to Torah values) or if it is a continuation of folk medicine that we relied upon in our old oppressive homelands because nothing better was available.
It pains me to no end to see people who can barely make ends meet being ripped off by purveyors of alternative therapies that can KILL, as well as by manufacturers of all kinds of so-called health food, organic food etc. that is no better than regular food. I have even heard of people requesting organic poultry from organizations similar to Tomchei Shabbos.
The worst is that kashrus organizations are willing to certify this fraudulent and often harmful array of snake oil remedies and overpriced food.
Ubecharta baCHAIM – that is the only alternative. Alternative medicine = sam ha MAVES!
Electing to not have surgery is not a form of, and has nothing to do with, alternative medicine.
How does a gallstone attack feel?
Living with gall stones is like living with a time bomb, you never know when it can explode. I was diagnosed many years ago with two tiny gallstones, right after childbirth. I watched my diet and waited for 8 months then i removed it laproscopically. My gall bladder was full of stones when they removed it. The healing processs was quick and easy. Good luck!
Gabi: “How does a gallstone attack feel?”
In my experience it was kind of like having a blockage right under the chest. The symptoms mimicked that of a heart attack (god forbid) chest pain, nausea, labored breathing, INTENSE upper abdominal pain…
Not a pleasant memory.
I can see this is a pretty old post but I found it through a google search. Stuck, did you ever try the cleanse or find alternative options?
I felt/feel the same that you do. I was not interested in having the surgery and I felt/feel that if my God (or in your case Hashem?) put it there it was put there for a reason and I felt very badly that I had done something to cause this issue and that having it removed was ungrateful and selfish. Unfortunately, I was in absolute agony and it was recurring frequently and lasting longer.
Like others seem to be mentioning and like I’m imagining you’ve probably found out at the point that you are at the only real option is removal. People make mistakes and hopefully your religion offers forgiveness and redemption. Hopefully you are not in pain now and have found something that works for you whether it was surgery or something natural maybe that I wasn’t aware of.
After having my gallbladder removed by the way I’ve been fairly uncomfortable because it’s really obvious my body isn’t processing food like it was before. Loose and light colored stools and a general ickiness is how I feel. So yes, you can live without it but I think 99% of people under appreciate the gallbladder as it is a necessary organ and shouldn’t be removed lightly.
Someone I know was having Gall stone attackes, two doctors recomended that he remove the gallbladder right away,
At the meeting with the surgeon, the surgeon did a thourough invesitagtion and stated that in his opinion any surgery should be a last resort, he recomended that the patient start a diciplined diet and see if the stones give him any problems.
He stated that a large percentage of people have stones yet do not have any problems with the gallblader.
I know that it is considered a minor surgery. However as I once heard, the difference between small and big surgery, small is when its by someone else, big when its by you.
youtube gallbladder removal surgery and watch the surgery, I would not want to have it if it is not absolutly necessary.
Therefore, I think that you should get a few opinions and not jump for surgery.
Presumably, by now, a decision was made one way or the other.
2scents -“Someone I know was having Gall stone attackes, two doctors recomended that he remove the gallbladder right away,
At the meeting with the surgeon, the surgeon did a thourough invesitagtion and stated that in his opinion any surgery should be a last resort, he recomended that the patient start a diciplined diet and see if the stones give him any problems.”
While every case is different -so I’m not about to say this surgeon is wrong – this is not the standard.
“He stated that a large percentage of people have stones yet do not have any problems with the gallblader.”
This is true, but from your own words this wasn’t the case here –
“I know was having Gall stone attackes” – this means they weren’t asymptomatic. The treatment for Gallstone attacks is removal of the Gallbladder. There are other options, but they generally are Not recommended. I posted this above:
“There are other treatments like Actigall -takes upto two years and only works half the time. They can do lithrotripsy (ultrasound breaking up the stones) -this works about 35% of the time.”
“Therefore, I think that you should get a few opinions and not jump for surgery.”
While it’s always a good idea to get a second opinion – this doesn’t mean shopping around until you find an opinion you agree with.
Surgery is the main treatment for inflammation of the gallbladder and/or Symptomatic gallstones.
The reason is because the chance of getting a complication from the surgery is much less than the chance of getting one from the disease itself.
Correct, you don’t shop around for opinions, however one should get a few opinions from gallbladder specialists before getting it removed.
The fact that someone had an attack, does not mean it should be removed, you can avoid getting more attacks by not eating fatty foods and regulating your diet. Doctors suggest surgery because it is the easy way out, however the gallbladder is not an ‘extra’ organ and should not be removed unless absolutely necessary.
Again, I am not suggesting that you not listen to a doctors advice, only that you should schedule an appointment with someone that specializes in gallbladder surgeries.
Having stones on its own, is not yet a sufficient reason for removal, most doctors just look at the sonogram and say oh, you have stones so go for surgery.
Also, ulcers can be mistaken for gall stones, the major difference usually is, that with an ulcer the attack comes way after eating, and with gallstones the attack comes right after eating fatty foods.
2scents -“Having stones on its own, is not yet a sufficient reason for removal, most doctors just look at the sonogram and say oh, you have stones so go for surgery.”
Actually you just made this derogatory remark, perhaps not realizing it, against Doctors.
“most doctors just look at the sonogram and say oh, you have stones so go for surgery”
No, actually most docs Do Not.
Well actually it depends. If the pt. came in with upper abd. pain and an US was ordered and they found stones -then almost all practioners will recommend surgery. This is consistent with current medical practice. (Something that they don’t teach in EMT/Medic school.)
If it’s just an incidental finding and the pt. has No symptoms related to their gallbladder, then Most practioners will Not recommend surgery. Instead they will take a wait & see approach.
I differ with you, I know this first hand, as I was with the PT, the ER doc and the general Doc stated that this must be removed, we did some research and found a reputable surgeon who did a more extensive investigation and advised to hold on the surgery.
In fact, I spoke with people who also had a similar experience.
I was not trying to put anyone down, just stating what happened, and hopefully someone will use this as a lesson and not jump for surgery when told so by o=a general doctor.
Removing and organ is not a joke, I am surprised at how lightly people take this. surgery should be a last resort. In other words consult with Doctors and surgeons that specialize in this.
Please explain why someone should opt for surgery when the pain and symptoms can be controlled with a regulated diet.
2scents -“I differ with you, I know this first hand, as I was with the PT, the ER doc and the general Doc stated that this must be removed, we did some research and found a reputable surgeon who did a more extensive investigation and advised to hold on the surgery.”
This is your right.
“I was not trying to put anyone down, just stating what happened, and hopefully someone will use this as a lesson and not jump for surgery when told so by o=a general doctor.”
I’m not hear to teach you medicine, but when those Docs say what they did, almost always will the Surgical consult back them up.
“Removing and organ is not a joke, I am surprised at how lightly people take this. surgery should be a last resort. In other words consult with Doctors and surgeons that specialize in this.”
Noone who practices medicine takes this lightly.
“Please explain why someone should opt for surgery when the pain and symptoms can be controlled with a regulated diet.”
This one time is a freebee. I honestly don’t know why that Surgeon didn’t say cut it out. Perhaps you/he/she refused surgery or some sort of medical reason why they couldn’t do Surgery. But the fact remains that Medical Practice dictates for Symptomatic Gallstones and/or Gallbladder inflammation – the main treatment is Surgery. The ER doc and the general Doc didn’t make up medical practice – they just follow it. Where medical practice comes from is complicated, but if you look in every standard Medical book or article you will find that they all say the same thing with regards to this disease. Medicine and surgery many times work hand in hand and this is one of those times. This is why students who are going to practice medicine have to do rotations, not only in Medicine, but also in Surgery. And it doesn’t matter what field you’re actually going to practice in.
They can not be controlled with a diet.I tried that when I was diagnosed with 2 gall stones. After 8 months of a strict diet, I removed my gall bladder, which was full of stones. My advice is to remove it. It can cause a lot of heartache, and other problems like pancreatitis.
my grandmother had gallstone problems and then she had cancer and was niftar. i have 2 aunt (not blood relatives)and a cousin who also had problems and were told by their surgeon that statistics show there is a higher chance of getting cancer they had theirs removed.
a mamin,
Please do not make a blanket statement, it might not have helped you, however I know of other people that were helped by going onto a strict diet.
Either case, I will repeat myself, you should schedule a consultation with someone that specializes in gallbladder surgeries.
You cannot undo the surgery once it is done, you should make an informed decision.
bb8,
Thanks for this info, I never heard of this before.
health,
Thanks for the freebie, (although there wasnt really any info there..)
However all I stated that one should consult with a doctor or surgeon that specializes in gallbladder surgeries.
Before opting for surgery it makes sense to have someone study your case, someone that specializes in studying it.
2scents – “Thanks for the freebie,”
No problem. Here’s another one:
“However all I stated that one should consult with a doctor or surgeon that specializes in gallbladder surgeries.
Before opting for surgery it makes sense to have someone study your case, someone that specializes in studying it.”
This is not always feasable. You should know this because You Claim to be an EMT who brings pts. to hospitals. Let’s say you bring a pt. in your town to Good Sam and the ER Doc says he’s admitting the pt. and getting a Surg consult who then tells the pt. he wants to operate in a day or two. I highly doubt that this hospital has what you call a gallbladder specialist. Even if it does most hospitals won’t have one of these. So you can’t call one in to look at your case -so what do you do now? Do you go ahead with the surgery or do you check out of the hospital AMA and go look for this gallbladder specialist? You might say leave the hospital, but I’d recommend staying and having the surgery.
I would suggest that since it can wait a day or two (using your scenario), then rather get on the phone with a referral organization and see if they have any surgeons whom they would refer you to.
Last thing I would do is, just listen to the ER Doctors advice without checking with someone that specializes in this area. (I know that some situations are different and do not have time for more consultation, however I was not referring to emergency situations).
I have nothing against doctors who practice emergency medicine, however they are not the ones who should make the decisions regarding non emergency surgery.
I am sure that you would not rely on the advice of an ER doctor if you should or should not have surgery done.
bb8: Are you saying the risk of cancer increases if someone with a gallstones problem does NOT have the surgery to remove it?
hershi -“bb8: Are you saying the risk of cancer increases if someone with a gallstones problem does NOT have the surgery to remove it?”
He’s not saying it – Medical Science is.
From the University of Maryland Medical System (amongst many):
(I didn’t post all of the article, nor all of the complications.)
“Gallstones and gallbladder disease – Prognosis and Complications:
Other Complications:
Gallbladder Cancer: Gallstones are present in about 80% of people with gallbladder cancer. There is a strong association between gallbladder cancer and cholelithiasis, chronic cholecystitis, and inflammation. Symptoms of gallbladder cancer usually do not appear until the disease has reached an advanced stage and may include weight loss, anemia, recurrent vomiting, and a lump in the abdomen.
Research shows that survival rates for gallbladder cancer are on the rise, although the death rate remains high because many people are diagnosed when the cancer is already at a late stage. When the cancer is caught at an early stage and has not spread beyond the mucosa (inner lining), removing the gallbladder (resection) can cure many people with the disease. If the cancer has spread beyond the gallbladder, other treatments may be required.”
I know this is an old post.
It does seems that Doctors don’t think that removing the gallbladder is something serious. They all say that you will live just fine without it, that it is an useless organ.
But they don’t mention the after effects of not having a gallbladder. Diarrhea, having to almost eat right next to a bathroom, weight gain that will be hard or impossible to lose even with exercise and healthy diet, and the risks of colon cancer and more stuff…
Yadhira – Funny how you only mentioned the complications of GB removal, but not of keeping a diseased GB in.
How about looking those up too and weighing one against the other?
So before you decide “that Doctors don’t think that removing the gallbladder is something serious” look up why they recommend removal as opposed to keeping it in. It sounds to me that you don’t think that keeping the gallbladder in – is something serious!
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