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Ready Now-“Some things are not acceptable and that fact is good to accept.
Do you mean frei, or just disagreeing with your point of view? Its quite sad that to you a different Hashkafa is a “frei” Hashkafa.
And what’s wrong with Ayn Rand? She is an amazingly good writer, almost astounding considering English wasn’t her first language. And while she considered herself an atheist, if you’ve read her work, you’ve seen her pintele yid is quite in evidence.
However, in spite of that, her books are not appropriate for 11th grade girls.
Matan 1: Why bother asking your question, because you have seemed to have made up your mind.
Please make yourself aware of the prohibitions.
Hashem is pleased if the wine we drink is Kosher and one says a bracha before and after and does not become shikker, except just slightly only on Purim, and certainly not in the Beis Hamikdash.
Now its Apikorsis to like fine wine over Cream Malaga.
If you would ask the author of the Maggid speaks did he intend to compete with the great english classic authors like Twain, Joyce and Dickens, He would tell you himself, His book was meant for light reading not meant to be a classic.
And tell me where did Hashem tell you he doesnt like when someone reads fine literature.
With such philosophies, Its no wonder so many people are going OTD
haifagirl: She has technical acuity, but she is not a good novelist (in my opinion). And in terms of hashkafa, while some books may have objectionable elements, hers directly espouse anti-Torah hashkafos. I think that makes it a lot harder to justify reading them.
I did really like Anthem, though. I just think being too agenda-driven ruins your writing. (I takah just wrote a whole blog post about this…) ^_^
Refraining by Jewish people from reading most secular literature is already well established. A book leads to magazine leads to music leads to a play leads to a film leads to a theatre leads to an opera leads to a ballet leads to a wrestling ring leads to contests. All forbidden.
Reading of secular literature by Jewish people sounds like a very off – color joke – something imposed on us to attain qualifications to be able to compete for employment and access higher education.
You might want to consider the agenda of some of the books being proposed here.
The Scarlet Letter has clear Hashkafic problems in its treatment of religion and sin.
12 Angry Men and Mockingbird have pro-crime agendas.
You may want to look at some Jane Austen novels, this is a class of high school girls. If you’re going contemporary, that will be much harder.
Refraining by Jewish people from reading most secular literature is already well established. A book leads to magazine leads to music leads to a play leads to a film leads to a theatre leads to an opera leads to a ballet leads to a wrestling ring leads to contests. All forbidden.
People who like Opera and Ballet would never be caught dead at a wrestling match.
People who read High Literature do not read trashy magazine
And A Play leads to a film leads to a theater doesnt even make sense
Z-D:You would be surprised in the number of people who would go to both opera AND wrestling.
in 11th grade my class read:
Macbeth, A Separate Peace, A Tale of Two Cities, and others which i’m not remembering right now.
Rebecca is clean, as is Jane Eyre and all those others. 1984 is good as well.
Frankenstein, Twelve Angry Men, Hamlet, The Death of Ivan Ilyich, The Strange Case of Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde -my class read these in 12, but they work for 11 also… (though i can’t say i enjoyed Ivan Ilyich, it’s not terrible, just a bit boring).
and even the most depressing, boring books can be made interesting-all depends on the teacher! (gotta give mine a lot of credit-she made even ivan ilyich interesting!)
Refraining by Jewish people from reading most secular literature is already well established. A book leads to magazine leads to music leads to a play leads to a film leads to a theatre leads to an opera leads to a ballet leads to a wrestling ring leads to contests. All forbidden.
And all of this leads to mixed dancing. 😉
Moda’a L’rabbim: 1984 is not clean.
You would be surprised in the number of people who would go to both opera AND wrestling.
And where do you have this information from.
“If the only way we can sell our children on Torah is by forbidding everything else, then we are bankrupt”
Rav Shlomo Friefeld
Anything by Thomas Hardy (I did “Far from the Madding Crowd” in school. The Bronte sisters. Dickens. The English classics are wonderful – and I AM biased being from England 🙂
“A Tree Grows in Brooklyn” by Betty Smith.
John Steinbeck’s “The Pearl” “The Red Pony” “Of Mice and Men”.
Have you considered short stories? O. Henry, Shirley Jackson, etc.
Excellent, haifagirl, you have drawn the subject to a perfectly logical conclusion. 😉 to you too!
As for you, SIGNTEACH, having stirred up this lovely little tempest in a teapot, you are strangely silent, methinks, for an English teacher. No thoughts of your own?
Haifagirl LOL.
Look, there is violence – from which we can learn lessons about right and wrong – in Tanach too – read sefer Shoftim. There are themes we find in good secular literature that come straight out of our tradition, like the request by leaders of the shvatim to establish a king, and Shmuel Hanavi’s response, which inform every work of political fiction since.
The themes we look for in secular literature – that which is worth reading – are ones our Torah perspective can identify with. The skill with which the English language is used by good writers, the methods used to illustrate the idea, illuminate the plot and captivate the reader are some of the ways these works can be judged.
One may look at the works of JRR Tolkien and see fantastical imaginary beings and worlds, but his mastery of the English language was incredible, and there is much to be learned about using it from his works.
One could look at the writings of George Orwell and see political allegory that has little to do with our day to day lives, but read his POLITICS AND THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE and you will learn more about how to write and how to avoid being ensnared by clever marketing and doublespeak than you will anywhere else.
Finally, unless we completely shut ourselves off in ghettos of our own making, we do engage with the world on some level, be it through work or otherwise. It behooves us to at least have some sense of the cultural underpinnings and foundations of language of the countries we inhabit.
I seriously don’t understand why you do not study one of the classical philosophical tracts. It is probably the only one that you will accept as “challenging but not to the point of boredom and interesting but not to the point of pop culture.
No romance, no violence, no foul language, but written on an 11th grade level of interest and not tragic.”
The book of Job.
Chances are that you can even study it in the original language and not have to use the Greek or Latin translation!
Z-D:
You have quoted selectively from Rabbi Shlomo Freifeld, assuming the quote supports all the things that Gedolim reject which it does not, however this is what Rabbi Shlomo Freifeld wrote:
“During the exile in Egypt, the spiritual exile in the land of Egypt, the Jewish people were hemmed in. The name Mitzrayim, Egypt, is also understood as metzarim, boundaries. A meitzar is a narrow boundary of confinement. The Jewish people were in a situation of narrowness in which the Jewish soul could not express itself.
Ancient Egypt had a highly developed culture, a big culture that made tremendous contributions to civilization. Good and fine, but the singular spirit that our forefathers represented, the spirit that emanated from the essence of their beings and that was perpetuated in their children afterwards, that spirit was stifled. When the Jewish people were immersed in the Egyptian culture, they could not express themselves in their own modes of expression. Their inner beings remained unarticulated. They were forced into a situation where they found themselves speaking an alien language, literally and figuratively.
This discussion seems to have gone far afield from the OP’s request. She asked for literature that wasn’t bleak and depressing, and that was spiritually uplifting. Besides the people who are saying that all literature is assur, we have people recommending bleak and depressing works like Shakespeare’s tragedies and now even Iyov! No wonder the OP hasn’t popped in.
Job has a happy ending!
Have you ever actually been in a real ghetto, Not what we call here in the US, but the kind the jews lived in Europe (Not the WW II ghettos but prior to the war)
Well I have (Rome and Venice) and they are like JAILS, you are locked in at night and cannot leave for any reason. They are not pleasant at all and I can never figure out why some seem to romantize them.
In Venice the ghetto was closed in at night via a drawbridge (The Jewish Ghetto in Venice is an Island) , Jews had to wear a mark of shame so that they could be indentified as a jew especially if they were out past curfew.
In Rome there was a wall around the Ghetto that was locked at night , much like a warden locks in prisoners in a Jail.
People starved in these places (Especially in Eastern Europe) and they were generally the worst part of town (The Roman Ghetto frequently flooded) and the locals could many times enter and threaten the jewish population.
Today these places are cleaned up and look nice, but its still creepy being in them. Italy is a modern country and the Ghettos of Rome and Venice look nice. I can only imagine what the ghettos of Eastern Europe are like. And it was creepy asking the Policeman in Rome where the Jewish Ghettos was (They have built up the Roman Ghettos as an area where jewish businesses especially restaurants operate and It was the best food I ever ate in my life)
The Rambam was a big reader of Aristotle and other Greek knowledge
The idea of no Chachmas goyim actually comes from the Chasam Sofer, While I am not going to question the Chasam Sofer, there are plenty of Gedolim who disagree with the Chasam Sofer. If you want to follow the Chasam Sofer, that is fine but dont expect everyone to hold by him.
And BTW My ancestors came from the Ghetto too and thats why they left. and the word Ghetto itself comes from the Foundry in Venice which was the first Ghetto.
A Jew was spiritually better off living in the ghetto than living in modern America.
And spiritual living is a lot more important than material living.
I guess you dont drive, Put gas in the car, Change a flat jump a car, That is Goyish Knowlege
I guess you never use plumbing, After all flushing the toilet, Using a plunger, Using a snake using drano is goyish Knowledge.
I guess you never use electricity, turn on the lights, change a light bulb, change a light switch, change a light fixture, That is “Goyish Knowledge” too.
Dont take pictures and videos of Weddings, Bar Mitzvahs, Bris too after all that is “Goyish Knowledge” too
Dont use Perek and Pasuks either, Do you know that came from the christians
“If a person tells you there is wisdom among the nations of the world, believe him. If a person tells you there is Torah among the nations of the world, do not believe him” (Eicha Rabba 2)
and
Z-D: We are talking here about learning English by Jewish children and young adults in order to be able to earn a livelihood in a permitted way according to Torah – both the learning and the earning.
Z-D: The Torah is from Hashem, not from the X-tians. You finally exposed yourself.
Ready now: He’s absolutely correct. The Perek and Passuk numbers used in all standard Chumashim (except for R’ Aryeh Kaplan’s) are the Christian divisions. According to us, they are counted by Parsha breaks (Pesuchos and Stumos). The only case where we agree with them is Tehillim. And even then, Chazal in Brachos say that the first 2 Perakim are really only 1.
Sam – Why did Klal Yisroel start using a Christian religious innovation for their bible to import for use in our Torah?
Why did Klal Yisroel start using a Christian religious innovation for their bible to import for use in our Torah?
During the middle ages, the jews were subject to “debates” with christians usually conversos. Most famously the Ramban against Pablo Christiani.
The christians had already adopted chapter and verses and they would say things like during these “debates” In Isaiah chapter 1 verse 1 it says the messiah has come and in order to refute them for the audience, the Ramban and others would say, Well in Isiah Chapter 2 verse 2 its says something else and he has not come.
Exactly when it was adopted by all I do not know, but I am guessing The Rabbanim of the time felt it made learning easier.
Another way you can tell it was done by the christians, is they actually divided the chapters incorrectly. Did you ever wonder why Parshas ended and a New parsha began in the same chapter. The proper way to divide the Tanach is with Peh’s.
I suggest Fahrenheit 451 by Ray Bradbury, A Raisin in the sun(not sure who wrote it), The House on Mango Street, To Kill a Mockingbird, almost anything by Edgar Allen Poe, Peter Pan(the original), Sherlock Holmes mysteries, The Wizard of Oz, The Thief Lord(amazing book),Johnny Tremain(on of my favorites!) and All of the Above(not such great writing but a good message)
Hope this helps.
The new testament is a fascinating work of litareture. Some of it was even translated from hebrew so even ready now would agree to reading it.
There is an article in Leaves of Faith (Volume 1), titles The End of Learning, By Rabbi Aharon Lichtenstein which lays forward the argument for why reading fine literature is important, albeit in an ancillory role to Torah Learning, which is and must be the ikkar. It’s a worthwhile read, and is a cogent and eloquent attempt to answer some of the questions Ready Now has been raising. You don’t have to accept Rav Lichtenstein’s conclusions, but he is a Gadol b’Torah, and his arguments cannot simply be dismissed out of hand. For those of you who do not have a copy of the sefer, if you go to googlebooks and search the book, the article is included within the portions you can browse online (http://books.google.co.il/books?id=QYDiAJUk2yYC&pg=PR7&hl=iw&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=3#v=onepage&q&f=false if the MOD lets me post the link)
The way the phrase was written is ambiguous – open to several interpretations, apart from having zero rational input into the discussion.
The Torah is from Hashem and not from the x-tians.
There is nothing to help the argument for most secular books – they are still prohibited.
No, MEXIPLEXI I would NEVER recommend the stupidity you are accusing me of. Troll of the x-tian variety are you?
The problem with using Jewish literature for a secular English class is clear – the whole point of the class is the range of classic, clean literature that the students learn to analyse and draw lessons from, which is a valuable skill in life. Also, if you’re in England, the syllabus requires many of these books to be read, so even well-written Jewish literature is out of the question.
Personally, I would recommend Lord of the Rings, Pride and Prejudice, To Kill a Mockingbird
ready now, there is nothing wrong with writing the word ‘Christians’ in full. I would take what you wrote with a large pinch of salt as you have clearly been exposed to some very extreme views
FYI The X in xtian is not actually a letter “x” its actually comes from the greek letter “Kai” which was short for the meaning our lord and savior
So there is no difference between writing xtian and christian.
Now its a “Aveirah” to read secular books, I guess all those Rabbanim who are the heads of Bais Yakkovs, Many Boys Yeshivas, YU, and Touro are major reshiam. Not only have they read secular literature they have encouraged good Yingerlach to sin greatly
Mexipal, I disagree with nearly every single thing that ready now has had to say on this topic, but on one thing I agree. The “new testament” is not a piece of literature for Jews to read. period. The only circumstances in which it could possibly be read is by countermissionaries so as to know how to fight the pernicious campaigns of those trying to convert Jews.
As to your assertion that parts were written in hebrew – almost certainly not true, as even if it wasn’t written in greek or aramaic in its entirety, there isn’t a single extant complete version of it prior to 325 CE, so you wouldn’t be able to prove it. Every element of it was redacted by the Pauline church, and all of it was turned to the purpose of differentiating from, vilifying, and demonizing the Jews. It is full of falsehoods and internal contradictions, and even its grammar in its original greek is bad.
Most importantly, half of it was written in the name of and all influenced by a man whose mission in life was to lie and kill and demonize Jews. Paul was an evil man, and that book is his legacy.
Ready now: Only someone intentionally looking for a flaw would misread that line as you did. I think it was pretty clear what he meant.
What is unfortunate is some will say reading Shakespeare leads to the reading of the New Testament. (Avareah Goreth Averah) which is totally false.
Ready Now since you say secular books are Prohibited
Where does it say that in the Mishna Brurah or similar books (Shakespeare was written after the Shulchan Aruch as was most classic literature)
Certainly the Chofetz Chaim must have heard of Shakespeare or Charles Dickens.
The Lubavicher Rebbe went to the Sorbonne surely he read Alexandre Dumas , I am sure he read The Three Muskateers or the Count of Monte Christo
I am surprised that people did not mention Jules Verne. I believe that his books would be deemed appropriate by most people.
While much of “so-called” Jewish literature is neither Jewish nor literature, but rather “light reads” without the objectionable material, there are good Jewish books for those who are looking for them. May I suggest “Wildflower” and “Blue Star over Red Square”? (Parents – I suggest that you are attentive to even “Jewish” books to ascertain that they fit in with the chinuch you desire for your children. Some of the very best are still not appropriate for everyone.
Ready Now – look, I understand that you don’t agree with reading certain kinds of literature, but that’s no reason to completely mangle a Rambam by taking it out of context. I assume that when you refer to him ‘despising works of the imagination’ you are referring to the statement in Shemona Perokim (1,4) where he is referring to the philosophical position of the Muttakalimun who held that, seeing as imagination cannot create anything new, anything that could be imagined must by definition exist. This is what the Rambam decries as “absurd” because, whilst it may be true that the imagination cannot create anything conceptually new it can take elements of what does exist conceptually and blend them into something which cannot exist in actuality, for example the concept of wings exists as does the concept of massive reptiles, the imagination can take these and create from them a dragon which, categorically,does not. It is this sort of PHILOSOPHICAL imagination, as opposed to reasoned philosophy, that the Rambam objected to. Nothing to do with imagination in artistry. And the Rambam read the works of Plato, which, if you’ve ever read them (and I doubt you have) are not simply philosophical works, but literature as well, they are stories (e.g. the tale of Atlantis). If the Rambam hated literature so much, I doubt he’d have done that. And by the way, your repeated assertions that reading secular literature can lead to ‘more aveiros’ (incidentally implying that the reading is in itself an aveiro, something I have spectacularly failed to find in any of the minyan hamitzvos…) bear no more water for your constant repetition of them. No matter how much you say it, it simply isn’t true. I suppose that R’ Avrohom Gurvitz SH’lita, Rosh Yeshivas Gateshead must be very surprised to learn of all the aveiros he’s done as a result of him having read Shakespeare, the collected works of which you can see on the very bottom of one of his bookshelves, just under the World Atlas. I’m not saying that he reads them all the time, or even that he has read them within the last 50 years, just that, at some point in his life, he did.
Just one more thought that came to me – the internet is so much more dangerous than a secular book since it has no limitations, whereas a book once it’s finished that’s it. If secular literature is so evil, why would someone with those views deem it ok (and approriate) not just to use the internet, but to have a profile on a forum where they can converse freely with both men and women?
Just a thought.
Shirley Jackson had an excellent story “The Lottery,” qhich I rememebr reading around that time.It was about a special lottery in which everyone in town participated. The story has a real twist ending.
A good novel was The Westing Game, I don’t recall the author, but I read it before I allowed my then Middle-Schooler read it, as I was unfamiliar with it. It is like an Agatha Christie mystery for younger students, but as an adult I also enjoyed it.
Probably the biggest benefit to reading is expanding your horizons and encountering new ways to think of things. So it’s pretty ironic that you need literature that does this the least.
Veltz Meshugener – Jewish literature (novels, that is,) don’t do that either. And there is a lot to be learned from the classics. And like I said, if you’re in England then there is certain type of book they like you to read for the exams.
Notasheep: Maybe my comment wasn’t clear. I was saying that since the point of reading is to expand your horizons, looking for books that specifically won’t do that is a fool’s errand.
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