Helicopters circling my head

It may be pattur bidinei adam but it might be chayuv on dinei shamayim. If He deserves some form of punishment HASHEM knows how to deal with it.

If you are going to say that, why have any police or jails, since only hashem can mette out punishment. We can live in a lawless society. hashem will take care of it

zahavasdad – so that’s the halacha. If after the six years it couldn’t be paid back in full then he’s patur from further repayment.

Putting him in prison for six years doesn’t get the money repaid either. In fact, putting him in prison will get less repaid then forcing him to work it off for six years.

so putting this particular investigation aside – and Bez”H no fault should be found anywhere among us – I am wondering about how things seem to be getting lost in the translation, as they say.

How does – “be dan l’kaf zchus” translate into “”We know he is innocent”

How does – “Daven he should not go to jail” translate into “He should suffer no consequences, natural or otherwise”

How does -“presume him innocent” translate to “destroy the witnesses and celebrate the man as a hero”

When I don’t know the facts of a case i refuse to make judgement. But refusing to make judgement does not mean mudslinging the prosecutors, victims or investigatory team (whether or not they deserve it).

as an outside example, When a frum mother was investigated for possibly facilitating her child’s illness there were rallys and destructive cries of anti semitism and calls for her release. What if it was true and she really was harming her child? does the hospitals political stand make them automatically wrong in their suspicians? do the people who cause riots and scream foul play know for a fact that this mother was really safe for her child? My question is – Why would an obligation to judge favorably and presume innocence allow for that type of behavior?

I have worked with frum patients who were victims of crimes r”l that were perpetrated by frum people r”l. NOBODY would have suspected such things and i myself was shocked. When the man’s friends rallied around him to get him off the hook, they were actually putting this patient of mine in danger. They meant well, but they were very, very wrong. is that part of our obligation?

People need to be very careful to learn the true meaning of being dan l’kaf zchus. When you don’t know the facts, be big enough to admit it and find something else to talk about.

I would take what Syag wrote one step further. Although it may not be applicable here (i assume Dan lekaf zechus doesn’t apply when it comes to a got but that assumption may be wrong) why would it not apply where the investigator or prosecutor is also a yid ( this is probably everyday occurence in israel) too. Isn’t the prosecutor or accuser entitled to the same treatment that he is not a rasha or worse and has legitimate basis for his accusation? In other words, one should keep their mouth shut and not say anything negative about either side.

You can call the police and have the car towed

Do you really think the car will be gone in an hour? You need to first get the police to come give a ticket, then after the car is ticketed, call the tow truck company.

Been there, done that. Not successfully.

BTW, halachah probably allows you to do that as well. Ask your Choshen Mishpat posek.

that pretty much solves our problem then. none of those who are actually guilty of any of these awful crimes can be considered Shomrei Torah.

Syag,

“none of those who are actually guilty “

The key point is if they are guilty which would have to be proven. At this point, this is only an investigation. Far from being guilty.

And we all know people who have pleaded guilty because it was cheaper and quicker than proving innocence.

nisht – The key point is if they are guilty which would have to be proven. At this point, this is only an investigation. Far from being guilty.

100% agreed. I have not joined anyone here in saying that there are guilty parties in this news story. there havent even been arrests BH.

And we all know people who have pleaded guilty because it was cheaper and quicker than proving innocence.

I honestly know no such people.

So you are saying a shomer shabbos prosecutor, fbi agent or police officer would also be entitled to the same Dan lekaf zechus.

APY,

What Dan lkaf zchus is there to a prosecutor? That he wasn’t intenyltionally malicious, perhaps. Doesn’t mean you have to believe that the allegations against the defendant is true.

You think the Halacha of Dan lkaf zchus is only where a non Jew or a mumar is making the claim? Nonsense.

The only way a non Jew or a mumar enters into the equation is that there is no din of being Dan lkaf zchus on them.