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My heart is pounding. FBI agents just flooded KJ and Monsey, seeking to arrest.
One of those, is my community.
They may be people I know. Beautiful heimishe people that we pray never made stupid decisions.
Their kids may even play with mine.
And yet, Coffee Room posters go and make negative comments.
WOuldn’t it be more effective to pray for your fellow Jew???
Really now, I have two FBI helicopters flying by every few minutes (not targeting me, i hope!), and I my heart is shaking.
How many small children will go to sleep tonight with Tatty? Or even Mommy?
Please yidden, daven for them.
It’s a defense mechanism; it’s too hard unless you can blame them.
Please yidden, daven for them.
That what? They should get away with it, no. That it didn’t happen, could be, but you can’t daven for the past.
Perhaps daven that they will plea bargain, turn evidence, and that those on the top (who don’t have children at home, fight with their brother in secular court, etc.) get racketeering (and other) charges and all of the people with families who where just “following orders” get to go home after being “Moser”?
Eppis. It is a bad situation. Probably best to Daven that the victims are Modeh and the judge (and the Judge) has Rachamim and gives a minimal sentence.
We should daven that those who are innocent do not suffer, and those who are guilty do teshuvah or pay the consequences without collateral damage. We should not daven that all of the Yidden should get off scot free if they in fact did do something wrong without doing teshuvah.
We should also daven that this entire event should conclude without any Chilul Hashem (though it may be too late for that).
ALL Mitzvahs and Averiahs apply to all yidden equally. Secular, , Reform, Conservative, OO , MO and Hemish people.
CM – i am very confused by your post. Of course i daven that there should be no chillul Hashem ever and that yidden should not chose to give in to momentary weaknesses that lead to drastic consequences, but your post gives the impression that there is no responsibility on the part of those who may have actually done wrong. that confuses me.
without doubt i daven that yidden shouldnt be arrested, but i am also davening that they should stop doing illegal things on such a grand scale bringing this shame upon themselves, their communities, their children who play with yours and frum Jews everywhere. are you saying that they those involved in such shameful anti halachik behaviors shouldnt get caught because then their children wont have their tatty? or are you assuming that this is all a mistake or set up?
im just confused.
Usually the FBI don’t target the innocent so you should be fine.
As a member of the Monsey community (though I’m not there at the moment), I am glad that hopefully, the FBI may be able to try to fix many of the corruption-related issues in Rockland County. I think that if people have been doing conscious crimes and causing harm for their own financial gain, they should not get off scot free. I hope that the innocent are not impacted as well and that all proceedings occur with real justice, but some of this was really needed. It’s also not just Jews- there are many issues related to town, village and county governments as well which involve many types of people. This has been in the cards for a long time.
I’m davening that any frum yid should not suffer any incarceration from the government.
Hillary Clinton is running to be the President of the United States. She became a US Senator (from New York) with the help of a voting block of a certain chassidish sect from outside NYC. The block voted for her because she was the best candidate (hah) and/or it was a quid pro quo to gain a pardon for certain chassidim that were sitting for similar activities. (No relationship was ever shown between Ms. Clinton’s qualifications as a senator or to the pardon given by President Clinton.)
Hashem Yishmor.
Writersoul : although some news sites seem to be combining the two, I believe there are two (or more) separate ongoing investigations. The one up for discussion now, which resulted in today’s raids, does not directly involve politicians, only Jewish businesses and Mosdos.
The real Chilil hashem here is not what was done, In every group there are always people who do the wrong thing and nobody can really be responsible for wrong doing by others
The Chilul hashem is the cover up and the denial of the wrong doing. Harboring such people makes everyone else look bad and like they did the same things wrong. People will associate the whole community with these people and assume everyone else are doing the same thing.
It would be better off if you would admit they did wrong and tell those people the same thing you would to someone who had unfiltered internet in their house or drank Chalav Stam and throw them out.
ZD: I don’t think you can admit something for someone else. Maybe if they’re found guilty we can say they did wrong based on the evidence. But at this stage – without any indictments or arrests – it’s all speculation.
Also, don’t kid yourself. No matter who we stick up for, if frum Jews and Mosdos are in the press negatively, we are all guilty by association in the eyes of the world.
The best thing is to say nothing. At this point it is all speculation. There is not even an arrest or an indictment yet.
Mammele, yes, that’s true, but all the other stuff is going to a head as well around this time and I see the whole corruption-busting-in-Monsey thing as one because they all kind of blend together in my head and I have the same basic sentiments about all of them.
The real chilul hashem is how certain people insist that all these people are guilty.
It is a Halacha that you have to be ?? ??? ???? if the people are not ????????. Publicly and proudly flouting this Halacha is really a gross chilul hashem.
Yet we see that there are posters who assume that these people are guilty. Without knowing not one scintilla of the facts.
Someone who gets too close to a helicopter chas vsholom, has it the other way….
mamale, i agree with you that if frum Jews are in the news we are all guilty by association. And I think that is part of why i get so frustrated when people are indeed guilty of these types of things. Didn’t they know the repercussions? Didn’t they know how many of us would suffer?
But that is where I try to be dan l’kaf zchus. I believe they did not know they were throwing us all under the bus just as I too am blind to my own wrongs.
nisht, I hope you weren’t referring to me, I surely don’t assume anyone is guilty, but i also admit i don’t assume that nobody is guilty. and maybe some of you see that as wrong, but i am not judging them, i am not speaking ill of them or wishing bad on them. i am assuming they thought they could beat the odds. However it doesn’t change the fact that I have to be judging fairly AFTER the fact. Best would be if we didn’t have our names in the news in the first place. and if we can daven that people don’t try to cover the facts with lies we wont make a second chilul Hashem on top of this one.
Have you never, ever in your life done something wrong?
Everyone has, and nobody appreciates others pointing it out to the entire world and judging them.
okay, i’m sorry but this is a bit misplaced. If i steal from my employer by making personal phone calls when i should be working, or i borrow something from someone and dont return it, or am hurtful to my husband, there wont be helicopters over your house. you cannot compare to my “wrongs” to the allegations that are being made right now. Gd willing nobody is guilty of it, but if anyone is, do you really think they still qualify for not having people pointing and judging? I would have to say that someone who choses to “wrong” on such a grand public level, kinda leaves that privilege of privacy behind them.
No matter what did or did not transpire, our job is not to make accusations, judments, and critical comments.
Our job is to say that hey, “that’s my brother!” and love them, even IF, and i do say IF, they did something wrong
100% correct. But that was not what you were saying before. my understanding of your original comments was that i shouldnt be flippant because some tatty may go to jail and his baby will be left without him. But that was his poor judgement, not mine.
My obligation is: to believe that anyone involved not just in money fraud but in turning the eyes of the world upon us, did not realize just how the chips would fall. They were duped by the yetzer hora and if they understood the damage and pain they would cause the world they wouldn’t have done it. and i throw on that pile the expectation, of course, that everyone involved will cooperate and not add to the chillul Hashem so we can be seen as honest and truthful emissaries of Hakodosh Baruch Hu.
May Hashem have rachmanus on us all.
ZD: I don’t think you can admit something for someone else. Maybe if they’re found guilty we can say they did wrong based on the evidence. But at this stage – without any indictments or arrests – it’s all speculation.
Also, don’t kid yourself. No matter who we stick up for, if frum Jews and Mosdos are in the press negatively, we are all guilty by association in the eyes of the world.
On the other side of the coin, the Spinka Rebbe, was faced with charges, was Modeh that he made a mistake, made restitution (I think), and exhorted his fellow Yidden not to fall into the same trap of Taavas Mammon to the point of Gezailah. We may not forget what happened, but the story is over and the Chillul Hashem was offset by his Charatah and Kabbalah Al HaAsid.
We should Daven that the same thing happens here, that Chillul Shem Shomayim is minimized. Seemingly, that would mean the guilty should accept guilt and a plea bargain, and completely root out the fraud and corruption (if there is any) so that the helicopters don’t have to come back.
When Bernie Madoff did the same people say we should worry about his family after all he was a “Tatty” too and we should pray for him ? (I am not saying I would have done so, but if you are going to ask to pray for jews who did the wrong thing, why stop at residents of Kiryat Joel, How about other jews who did wrong)
Did the same people who say we should not condem, give tochcha to the families of the murdered boys while the parents were sitting Shiva? Was any mercy shown to their families whose “Averiah” was being in the wrong place?
Loving your brother does not mean enabling him, Some times tough love is the best love to give. If your brother was Mechalal Shabbos and went in and out as his pleased in your house and did all sorts of things wrong, would you let him do it or would you give tough love?
This is not new news, it was not broken to the public by the “Mesiras Forward”, its been in the news for some time, Ive already seen it in the larger NYC newspapers a few years ago. The only difference now is they are actually arressting people instead of just reporting the news.
1. I’m deeply disturbed that anyone here is accepting reports or saying that *any* wrongdoing took place in this case. This is *only* an investigation and the officers yesterday were only serving search warrants and taking documents to use in their investigation.
No one was arrested. No one.
2. Even if in the future (or any other cases) anyone is arrested, even the non-Jewish system recognizes everyone is innocent until and unless convicted and upheld on appeal. Furthermore, we are obligated to be dan l’kaf zechus and presume innocence.
3. Even if the non-Jewish system convicts anyone, we still are not permitted to accept or believe said conviction. The non-Jewish system accepts circumstantial and other types of evidence that is unacceptable in the Jewish system since the Torah considers such evidence weak and easily manipulable by those seeking a conviction for unjust reasons.
Additionally, the non-Jewish system convicts with much weaker proofs than the Torah permits a conviction based on.
4. Also, the punishments metered out by the non-Jewish system is excessive by Torah standards. Economic crimes in the Jewish system are punished with economic penalties, not jailings that are literally pikuach nefesh.
There is absolutely no justification that any Jew can support the jailing of their fellow Jew for something halacha doesn’t demand such an excessive punishment. You can look in the teshuvos seforim throughout the ages, including in Rav Moshe in the Igros Moshe in our own times, where they strongly rule it is forbidden to use the secular authorities criminal justice system since they convict based on proofs that are halachicly unacceptable as well as because they hand out punishments more severe than halacha permits even if guilty.
5. If your own flesh and blood brother or son committed a crime would you go around saying if he did the crime he must do the time? Would you be advocating your brother or son’s imprisonment? Of course not. You must treat and advocate for your fellow observant Jew no less than you would for your son or brother.
1. I’m deeply disturbed that anyone here is accepting reports or saying that *any* wrongdoing took place in this case. This is *only* an investigation and the officers yesterday were only serving search warrants and taking documents to use in their investigation.
OK. Now still ask the question, “what do we daven for”?
And the answer is still the same:
that Chillul Shem Shomayim is minimized.
That means if they are guilty (and that is an if), they should be Modeh and pay back so that it is minimized. If they are not guilty, that the truth comes out.
Only those raided know the truth. So daven for them that they should make the choices that minimize Chillul Shem Shomayim.
Please tell us what Averiah according to the torah Bernie Madoff did. Are you praying for his unjust jailing? he has gotten beat up in Jail and he is an older man. You should protest his unjust jailing?? he could get killed there.
Or are you just in favor of letting “Hemish people” do crimes and get away with it.
zahavasdad – More than that.
Levi Aron, a Frum Yid, is currently sitting in jail. Are you all davening for his release? After all, jail is not Al pi Torah, and there weren’t two Eidim and Hasrah to convict him!!
If a toddler is told repeatedly not to go into the street, but sneaks into the street when he thinks he isnt being watched, he deserves to get punished. As a mother, I know that it hurts to punish your child, but on the other hand this is the way to teach them.
If a child misbehaves in class after numerous warnings, then yes, he deserves to get kicked out and suffer the consequences for his actions. He knew it was wrong, he knows whats right, yet he still chose to do wrong. The parents are hurt from this but agree that their child needed to be taught a lesson.
If someone gets a ticket for double/triple parking, its because they deserve it. Every driver knows that it is illegal to double park. Every driver knows how frustrating it is to have to wait and sit in traffic because someone is double parked. Do i feel bad that the person got a ticket? No. I do feel bad that they only thought of themselves in the moment when they double/triple parked, and not the consequences. I do feel bad about the chillul Hashem said driver caused by his selfish actions.
The city/gvt is very obsessive about getting exact details of what it is that your requesting money for. And for copies of invoices/paid bills to prove that the money was actually used for the approved items. Its pretty clear cut. Its very difficult to mess up such a clear and precise process. If any agency/organization plays dirty, its pretty clear that they’ll have to suffer the consequences. And they know it.
Now, I may not know all the details of this raid and what it is exactly that they are looking for, but if all rules were followed, there is nothing to worry about and we only need to daven that there is no chillul shem shomayim.
If someone decided to play dirty with money that isnt theirs, its not a question that i feel sorry for the persons family, and its not a question that the entire Jewish nation will be thrown under the bus, and its not a question that we will all be hurt by the tremendous chillul Hashem, but when push comes to shove, and I’m sorry if this sounds callous, but they deserve to be punished.
I made five distinct (and numbered) points. So far I see only the first point having been addressed by anyone. (And that response was a fair one.)
We have a far more and greater responsibility for observant Jews than we do for anyone else. They’re included in acheinu bnei yisroel. How you’d treat your flesh and blood brother and son in similar circumstances is how you should any observant Jew.
edited for inappropriate/unsubstantiated information. Please reread your own points 1 through 3
Anyone interested in addressing to my points two through five?
Because, you know, every time a Jew is in the news for bad, it MUST be truth. I mean, blood libels and everything, right?
I’m sorry copymachine, your response does not match my comments. I understand this is a painful subject for you, as for me as well, but you cannot decide i am judging people unfairly just because i am cringing at the chillul Hashem.
When one is on trial down below, he is on trial above as well. Whether or not someone is guilty is irrelevent. Completely irrelevent. I don’t want to be on trial, i don’t want klal yisroel to be on trial, and i don’t want our people dragged thru the mud EVER. My disire to be out of the news is not unreasonable or unsympathetic and i am sorry you cannot see that.
as an aside, i didn’t even know about this story until this thread came up. When i see headlines of that sort i don’t open them. i dont want to know that the FBI is looking around anyones neighborhoods and i prefer not to know who has been arrested or put on trial here or in israel if i dont need to know. why listen and find a zchus when i can avoid reading the story altogether. so when it is up to me, that is what i do.
“Please tell us what Averiah according to the torah Bernie Madoff did”
Well ZD, you insist that a Jew who is frum who had done something way less egregious than Bernie, did all sorts of aveiros according to the Torah.
I am sure, as is your wont, you can make up something suitable to fit Mr. Madoff’s crimes.
GAW,
“Levi Aron, a Frum Yid (By your definition only is he “frum”), is currently sitting in jail. Are you all davening for his release? After all, jail is not Al pi Torah, and there weren’t two Eidim and Hasrah to convict him!! “
I guess it is only you who is advocating for his release.
You will notice that no one seems to be calling for the death penalty, which is what would require eidim and hasrah.
Any one who has a little common sense knows that keeping a dangerous person off the streets by imprisoning him/her does not need eidim and hasrah.
People who are in slightest bit learned know the halacha of habah lhorgacha hashkeim vhargo. And that does NOT need eidim or hasrah.
Any one who has a little common sense knows that keeping a dangerous person off the streets by imprisoning him/her does not need eidim and hasrah.
Contrasted with the statement of EretzHaK:
There is absolutely no justification that any Jew can support the jailing of their fellow Jew for something halacha doesn’t demand such an excessive punishment.
I’m glad we both disagree, and say that jail is sometimes called for even if strict Halacha wouldn’t agree, and he is a “brother”, and there is “proof” that is not acceptable in a bais din, and still we believe that the conviction is correct.
EretzHaK – Those are points 2-5, no?
If you would like to argue that a specific crime (which may or may not have been committed here) does not deserve jail (al pi the system of justice that government has the Chiyuv to create as one of the 7 Mitzvos), but rather a different deterrent/punishment, we can discuss on another thread.
People who are in slightest bit learned know the halacha of habah lhorgacha hashkeim vhargo. And that does NOT need eidim or hasrah.
Also for a different thread, but I’d like to hear how you apply that to Levi Aron, and if you do, why you don’t kill him now.
Halacha punishes theft with a financial penalty. Rav Moshe in Orach Chaim 5-9,11 and Choshen Mishpat 1-8 says you can’t support or have a Jew punished by the secular authorities because they administer a punishment in excess of halacha.
So now in Jail, he is going to able to kill you?
Really?
That has been obviated.
Right now Dan lekaf zechus is a non issue. Nobody was accused of anything. Right now people are speculating, which is assur to say or believe under hilchos lashon hara.
Halacha punishes theft with a financial penalty. Rav Moshe in Orach Chaim 5-9,11 and Choshen Mishpat 1-8 says you can’t support or have a Jew punished by the secular authorities because they administer a punishment in excess of halacha.
So in other words if a Jew parks and blocks my drive way, I cant do anything since there is no Halacha punishment for blocking my car in my driveway with his car since any punishment is in excess of halacha
“Contrasted with the statement of EretzHaK:
There is absolutely no justification that any Jew can support the jailing of their fellow Jew for something halacha doesn’t demand such an excessive punishment.”
Suddenly haskem vehargo is not a halacha?
What is the contrast?
Is some one who may be guilty of some financial crime a Rodef?
Where is your basis for that?
there is no Halacha punishment for blocking my car in my driveway with his car
There is halachic recourse.
If he blocks my car for an hour and I am late to go somewhere, but no monetary loss (Ie family Simcha) there really isnt a halchic recouse and even if a Beis din would rule in my favor it would be pointless since the family simcha is long over and no amount of money would get it back.
There’s no secular recourse in that case either.
Halacha punishes theft with a financial penalty. Rav Moshe in Orach Chaim 5-9,11 and Choshen Mishpat 1-8 says you can’t support or have a Jew punished by the secular authorities because they administer a punishment in excess of halacha.
Once again, I’ll discuss the issue of what punishment, as well as Bais din vs. Government on another thread. Also, not sure where “support or administer” comes in to the Halachos of Moser or Shevuas Shav (which the second certainly wouldn’t apply in an American court, and the first is if the Nignav is yourself, not the government). Also, this is Ei Efshar B’acher, and Rav Moshe agrees that then it is Muttar.
Suddenly haskem vehargo is not a halacha?
Sending someone to jail is not haskem vehargo. We can discuss the parameters of Rodef, as well as current applicability to a non-active murderer (if he was one, which you don’t have two eidim), on a different thread. Otherwise I’m not sure what you are trying to get at.
My point was that in certain situations, the government (who has the chyiuv to make rules on its own land, and you agree to abide by them by living on the land) can jail someone, even if pure Halacha as stated in the Torah would not say that person should be jailed. If you want to argue that the appropriate punishment should be something else, that is for the thread that EretzHaK is going to start. When you do, I will bring in the Rambam in Rotzeach 2:4 as a source for what to do with Levi Aron.
DY
You can call the police and have the car towed
There’s no secular recourse in that case either.
Perhaps there is a tow truck passing by? 🙂
gavra – start the thread with the points you want to discuss separately and frame the issues on those various points so we can discuss them.
It may be pattur bidinei adam but it might be chayuv on dinei shamayim. If He deserves some form of punishment HASHEM knows how to deal with it.
EretzHaK – we can move the tangent here:
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