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Hello, can anyone pelase tell me why people are makpid all year around to only use soaps and sponges that have a hechsher?
Because soap can have Triefa fats and oils in it.
Does Popa know if Starbucks cleans with agents that have hechsherim?
The soap touches all your dishes and pots, so it needs to be kosher, although I never heard of sponges that need/have a hechsher.
sponges should not be manufactured on shabbos
sponges should not be manufactured on shabbos
Neither should pots and pans… but you’re not makpid on that, are you?
The Wolf
“sponges should not be manufactured on shabbos”
shlomozalman~ that is an hysterical, absurd comment! 😉
I apologize to the poster shlomozalman for criticizing him publicly in this post. My comment has since been deleted
sponges should not be manufactured on shabbos
Was your clothing manufactured on Shabbat?
bordstiff, most sponges are “pre-soaped.” If you’ll look at the packaging you’ll often see some mist on the plastic and when you take it out of the packaging it’s often moist – hence the need for a hechsher.
BS”D
I serve sponges cooked in tomato sauce on Purim; it is an old minhag in Chelm and Szarkonosvary.
It’s all baba meisa, no hashgacha needed for soap or sponges. But once you have hashgacha for one brand, it creates the status quo.
Most soaps have an ou. Just check the bottle.
its not a bubba meisa.
i dont know the din in Halacha
but i dont want to wash my dishes (or even my face) with traces of pig lard.
maybe youll tell me they dont use lard anymore, could be, i have no idea, but i like to know a Kashrus organization is watching it. i feel better, and cleaner.
Pass the soap.
No soap, Radio. Ha Ha Ha.
for the full story:
http://www.oukosher.org/index.php/articles/single_print/1377692
some salient quotes:
The common custom nowadays is to use permit all soaps, even when containing non-kosher materials . Although there are Gedolei Yisroel, past and present, that are known to have been privately cautious in this area, vigilance from soaps is considered a chumra. The accepted practice amongst the masses is to use all soaps.
A lenient position based on the gemara in Avodah Zarah should apply even if dishwashing soap would contain non-kosher components in significant proportions. However, it is interesting to note that in reality the likelihood that a soap would contain non-kosher or animal derivatives is very minimal .
Like all other issues, consumers should consult their Rabbonim for direction.
so i believe cherrybim is essentially correct
i still dont like the calling of such concerns a bubba maisah however
shlomozalman is probably in EY, where there is an issue of Meleches Yisroel.
If it will enhance shalom bais, use the hashgacha soap.
“Sodium tallowate, a common ingredient in many soaps, is derived from rendered beef fat.” sorry, I don’t want that on my dishes, utensils, or skin
See YD 95:4 Here:
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=9145&st=&pgnum=435
Mechaber holds if you wash pots which contain meat and milk in the same pot, we can be meikel as long as there was also ashes (soap) in the pot.
Taz, 95:14-15 is skeptical. He says if so it should be muttar if you wash your pot with soap that is made of non kosher fat as long as the soap contains ashes. He does not buy it.
Yet, the heter is accepted. Generally, we will say if there was soap present in any issur, it is muttar bdieved.
I don’t even think the soap should be a problem lechatchila, since the soap is already made, and itself is already b’dieved. (I am speculating)
I would eat the soap.
(Contrast 103:1-3. An issur which creates an unpleasant taste does not make a food assur. 103:1. Even if it only creates an unpleasant taste due to the presence of a third ingredient. 103:2.
Apparently, the case in 103 is that due to the presence of the third ingredient, the issur actually did impart unpleasantness. In 95, the issur is still adding pleasant taste; it just happens to be mixed together with the unpleasant stuff.)
Taz, 95:14-15 is skeptical. He says if so it should be muttar if you wash your pot with soap that is made of non kosher fat as long as the soap contains ashes. He does not buy it.
Does that mean it’s not a bubba maaseh?
Kind of. There is pretty valid support for his position. He notes that the position of the Mechaber does not appear in any rishonim. Look at it, I put the link.
Mod-80 well i never saw shampoos and face washes with a hecsher…. i guess you have to wash your hair and face with dishwashing liquid….
So, if one only uses cold water to wash their dishes, must one be makpid according to the Taz that the soap have a hechsher? I only use dish soap with a hechsher because my wife insists on it, not because my Rav does. In truth, its hard to find without.
All proofs from past poskim concerning non-kosher soap is not valid bizman hazeh , because even if there were a non-kosher fat in the soap, in our times the process entails a chemical transformation that renders (excuse the pun) the soap a non-fat entity.
There are similar items and foods used today that start out with a non-kosher ingredient but the chemical transformation allows it for kosher use.
PBA: A more appropriate source would be the discussion in YD 103 if ????? ????? ????? ??? is mutar or patur. According to most Achronim it is not ??? ??????. see Pri Chadash, Pri Toar, Chavos Daas etc
cherrybim: whether a treif item that becomes inedible in the preocessing looses its non-kosher status is not at all a given. See Mishnas Reb Ahron and Igros Moshe who are machmir on gelatin.
But is matir soap.
But is matir soap.
Because you don’t eat soap?
cherrybim: I don’t disagree that soap is mutar, just with your logic that a chemical transformation automatically converts a non-kosher item into a kosher one.
It’s the logic of poskim, I can’t take credit.
As I pointed out, neither Reb Ahron Kotler nor Reb Moshe Feinstein agree with you.
for the full story:
http://www.oukosher.org/index.php/articles/single_print/1377692
This just leads to more questions.
1) Does the OU rely on the Pri Chodosh or not?
2) Why do they certify so many dishwashing and laundry detergents but *no body soap?
*I’m not certain but I don’t recall seeing a hechser on body soaps.
hello99:
I am not familiar with the soap making process. If the tarfus is degraded in itself, then we could apply the rules you reference.
However, we can go further than that, since here we are not eating the soap; there is only nesinas taam. Therefore, we can use the rules of n”t lfgam that I referenced which are more meikel.
Now, can you elaborate on the din of nveila sh’eina reuya l’ger? It looks to me like the Mechaber is matir when a rov issur falls into a miut heter and it is pagum lgamri in siif 2.
“As I pointed out, neither Reb Ahron Kotler nor Reb Moshe Feinstein agree with you.”
Sorry to disappoint you, but I’m no posek.
.
So it seems that Rav Moshe and Rav Aharon may indeed hold of the s’vara of chemical transformation, but assir the gelatin from a non kosher animal for a different reason.
The posek who was matir gelatin made from pig’s bones was Rav Chaim Ozer Grodzinski. Have you heard of him?
Mod-80 said,
i dont want to wash my dishes (or even my face) with traces of pig lard.
You have said in previous postings that you are a doctor, presumably of medicine. Tell us, who gives the hashgocha on Hibiclens or Purell?
There may be a parve substitute for gelatin. Agar Agar when mixed with fruit water solidifies like Jello. I am not sure if Agar Agar needs a hetchsher or not. This is definitely a shailah with a Mashgiach in a Kahrus Company who has a background in Food Chemistry.
Since most of the items mentioned are probably made in Japan or China, etc. I doubt the Shabbos issue is shayach. Soap on the other hand might contain tarfus in it.
Not true!!!
“Sorry to disappoint you, but I’m no posek”
True! so why do you make a blanket statement permitting transformed foods.
I am familiar with the teshuva in Achiezer, Rav Abramsky was also matir. But if you are NOT a Posek, why do you take sides in a machlokes.
hello: You say, “Not true”
Are you saying that the Rav Hamachshir for kosher gelatin requires that it come from animals that had sh’chita? Hello, is that a new shita?
I didn’t permit transformed foods, poskim have.
I have not said anything anywhere that would imply that I hold of any shita that disagrees with Rav Moshe. And whose side are you on?
From the cRc:
“Bar-soap has always been made from (non-kosher) animal fat and there are respected halachic authorities that hold that one should not use such soap for washing their body. However, the common practice is to be lenient on this issue because (a) many disagree with the aforementioned opinion and (b) some argue that our soaps are sufficiently inedible that even the stricter opinion would agree that they can be used in spite of their being made from non-kosher animal fat.”
From th OK -Kosher Kitchen:
“Also necessary are separate sets of draining boards, draining racks, dish sponges, scouring pads, dish towels, and tablecloths. Dish soap, cleanser, and scouring pads used for dishes and pots must have a hechsher (kashrut certification).”
Agar Agar is Kosher. I googled about the Kashrus of agar agar. This is what I found. In an email correspndence Miriam Wudowsski of OK certifying agency said, “kosher gelatin is made from kosher fish/or agar agar”. oomis I don’t understand how the country of origin affect whether agar agar may be used to make Kosher Jello on Shabbas, Chagim, maybe with the exception with chag Pesach, and during the year. If agar agar is kosher certified and parve, and can be used as a vegetarian substitute for fleishig kosher gelatin what is the problem?
cherrybim: “Are you saying that the Rav Hamachshir for kosher gelatin requires that it come from animals that had sh’chita?”
Absolutely. The Poskim who forbid gelatin from a beheima temeia would equalyy forbid from a neveila. All Hechsherim follow the machmir opinions, including Rav Belsky and Rav Shachter at the OU.
“Hello, is that a new shita?”
Not at all.
“I didn’t permit transformed foods, poskim have.
I have not said anything anywhere that would imply that I hold of any shita that disagrees with Rav Moshe.”
But the Poskim who permit transformed foods are disagreeing with Reb Moshe!!!
EXCEPTED FROM THE ORTHODOX UNION PUBLICATION:
There are many soaps today in which tallow is only a minority ingredient and still others in which the presence of tallow is difficult to determine. According to some authorities, there is a basis for leniency in both of these cases.
It is also important to note that many liquid soaps are actually detergent, not soap, and therefore they may not contain any animal fat at all.
hello99 – You are misleading the CR readership because you make implications and assumptions and present them as definitive fact.
Your entire post is presumption presented as fact; and in fact is not true at all.
I spoke to with the Rav Hamachshir of a kashrus agency last night who told me that kosher gelatin does not necessarily come from animals that have had sh’chita.
You have not addressed the issue that kosher gelatin is pareve even though its origins are meat.
cherrybim “hello99 – You are misleading the CR readership because you make implications and assumptions and present them as definitive fact.”
Funny you are doing the same thing here-
“It’s all baba meisa, no hashgacha needed for soap or sponges. But once you have hashgacha for one brand, it creates the status quo.”
I proved that the kashrus agencies hold there is a difference between hand soap and soap or dishwashing hand liquid/ soap sponges. I also found that they seem to hold that the powder or liquid going actually into the dishwasher doesn’t need a hechsher because it’s sufficiently strong that it’s poison. But it seems that all seem to hold that what you hand wash your dishes with- needs or should be kosher as opposed to body soap or actual dishwashing machine powder. Hence all the hechsherim on those liquid dish detergents. You might not have meant this in your above post, but you are misleading people!
cherrybim: I remember the good old days when the moderators would delete gratuitous, personal attacks.
Anyways, basar b’chalv is not an issue with gelatin because it is a taam kalush that cannot create a new issur, just like nat bar nat. However, temea and neveila are already assur even when only a taam kalush and have not heter of nat bar nat or here with gelatin.
As I have said previously, I consider all soap kosher, but not because of certain Poskim who hold a blanket rule that all transformed products are kosher. You have not answered how you can quote Rav Grodzinsky as an unquestioned fact and ignore Reb Moshe arguing.
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