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“Actually, I think that the fact that you are reducing children to a monetary decision is kind of disgusting.”
That’s similar to my response when I hear people say they won’t have children for environmental reasons: You think the extra few tons of CO^2 emissions and natural resources consumed is really more important than the human being you might bring into the world (with G-d’s help)? Now that’s a materialistic way of thinking.
Here is the gemara, taanis 11a http://www.hebrewbooks.org/shas.aspx?mesechta=10&daf=11&format=pdf
You can see clearly that the reason is because you should share in the community’s pain.
Showing up at the Chupah without any skills to support your wife financially is like showing up at the start of Succos without a Sukkah or Arba Minim.
The Torah commands men to be fruitful and multiply. The Rabbis specify that it must be with a Jewish marriage and a Kesubah in which the man pledges to financially support the wife and family. If you do not want to make the Kesubah a lie, you must prepare in advance.
I’m still waiting for the big talmidei chachamim here to answer why this is any different than any other mitzvas asei, which one is not obligated to perform if one really cannot afford it (See OC 636 for details).
The poskim don’t say you’re an apikoros if you forgo the mitzva of lulav and esrog because it will cause you to not be able to make rent next month. In fact, they say it’s the right thing to do.
You cant forgo lulav and esrog because you might not have enough money in six months to pay the rent.
If you were asking about a fellow who wouldn’t have enough money to buy a diaper for his newborn baby to take him home from the hospital, maybe I could hear your question. But if your question is “he might not be able to afford tuition in 8 years from now”, you don’t even have standing for the question.
Shtuyot. Anyone can figure out the general amount it costs to take care of a child, and anyone can figure out if in the situation they are in they will be able to afford anywhere near that in the near future. We aren’t talking about something you need a navi for.
The Mitzva to have children is one boy and one girl. Anything after that is voluntary. If you cannot afford to take care of them it’s a serious question for a competent Rav.
And thanks to the OP for bringing this up, whenever I see someone collecting because he has 13 children to marry off I wonder if he had a right to have them in the first place.
Before anyone screams what a horrible person I am, let me say that I give plenty of Tzedaka to these guys and I was not referring to a case of catastrophic illness etc, just a guy who has more kids than he can support. I think its very greedy for a person to have many children and throw the responsibilty on others
I’m still waiting for the big talmidei chachamim here to answer
Shkoyach for the titling.
I hear your point. At the same time, I’ve never seen in any discussion of hishtadlus and bitachon that having kids is a factor, nor have I seen such an idea anywhere else.
“and anyone can figure out if in the situation they are in they will be able to afford anywhere near that in the near future”
Shtuyot.
You know G-d’s plan for you in 8 years from now?
STY: So which of the 13 children should he not have given birth to? Dovid? Chava? Sam? Rachel?
And what should your bubbes have done before birth control? Was your great grandparents able to afford your grandparent? Perhaps you and your siblings shouldn’t be here…
If you are young enough to have children, then you are too young to be able to predict what you (not to mention the economy, or the world situation) will be like in 20 years — and the real spending “pinch” is when they are wanting to get go to yeshiva, seminary, college – and get married. Also remember that 20 years from now, if you realize you can afford children, you can’t go back and decide to have them.
Who said anything about eight years? The first three years of a child’s life costs a lot of money too. Anyone who lives responsibly knows whether they will be in the ballpark of affording that.
Are you financially independent? Because for some reason it seems that it’s usually the people who aren’t, who disagree.
Three years? So at least you take issue with the meshuganas who advocate against child rearing due to “tuition costs” (at some overpriced school, no less, due to advanced secular studies costs) in *8 years* or more into the future.
thegra – +1
Interesting rambam. I’d like to point out that he doesn’t address having children at all.
Possible that is because the pesukim there don’t address it. But still I find it notable.
I’ve read many accounts of the obligations of hishtadlus and bitachon–I don’t recall ever seeing a concept that it involves not having children.
We learn the laws of Succos 30 days in advance. This gives people time to acquire the Lulav & Esrog and build the Sukkah.
We teach our sons the language of Kosher money and computational skills from an early age so when he is ready to get married the Kesubah will not be false words.
Comes Succos and you have not prepared, you cannot steal a Lulav, Esrog and Sukkah to do the Mitzvos.
This thread is about what to do when the time to marry comes and you have not prepared.
The Gra: It sounds to me like the Rambam is giving advice, like in Hilchos Deios, where for better or for worse we don’t follow all the advice (do you sleep 8 hours a night?)
I don’t know how to learn halacha. Am I misunderstanding the Rambam?
I’d like to point out that for actual Halacha one should ask one’s Rov, not rely on anonymous bloggers who may or may not have any idea what they’re talking about.
Josh31:
“Showing up at the Chupah without any skills to support your wife financially is like showing up at the start of Succos without a Sukkah or Arba Minim.”
If my wife doesn’t mind, why should you?
“If my wife doesn’t mind, why should you?”
Yes, if she fully and willingly forgave her claim.
She needs to be fully aware that the normal Torah expectation and the general practice of Jewish men for 3000 years has been to support their wives, as is mentioned specifically in the Kesubah. This awareness of normal obligations and your special request for forgiveness has to come before the engagement. Otherwise, it is a forgiveness under pressure.
Then the future children, still need to be provided for. Hence, besides the forgiveness of her claim of support; she has to take on the obligation of supporting the children she will bear.
If he comes to the Chupah with a several year committed Kollel or graduate school stipend; with the understanding that after the several year period he will take a job as a Rebbe or professor; then he is supporting the family. She just has to accept the lower standard of living that a Rebbe or professor will provide vs. someone in a lucrative profession.
Babies are not born with silver spoons in their mouths.
Josh: they are fully aware and willing for it. In fact, they are driving it in quite a large way, by refusing to date men who aren’t committing to learn for many years.
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