- This topic has 42 replies, 11 voices, and was last updated 7 years, 8 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
Have you ever told someone who didn’t know that he/she was Jewish that he/she is Jewish?
How did that go?
I did. They said that cool, how do you know? How am I Jewish?
LB – has it happened to you?
rebshidduch – how did you know the person was Jewish?
btw, if it comes up again, you may want to find out what the halacha is regarding whether or not you should tell them.
Why would you imagine that the halacha is ever not to tell someone they’re Jewish, if they’re Jewish and don’t know it?
(shrugs) that’s my big sister told me when I was a kid. She had a teacher who was Jewish and didn’t know it, and they didn’t tell her for this reason. It was based on the idea that it’s better for a person to sin unknowingly than knowingly.
There may be nothing to it. I’m not saying my sister as a teenager was necessarily a reliable source.(I’m also not guaranteeing that I understood or am remembering the details accurately). But it’s worth checking out.
Also, if this was a matter that involved her class, there is a good chance that this came from the fathers of her classmates who were Talmidei Chachamaim. So it is POSSIBLE that there was something to it.
Ive told people, they didnt really seem to be so interested. Although these people had an inkling they had jewish ancestors (They had a jewish maternal Grandmother).
the halcha of someone with a Jewish Father is that they are not jewish. The term lately has been “Zera Yisroel” literally seed of israel.
That is a more complicated issue, not because they are halachic jews, They are not. But you need to tread that issue more delicatly because it can cause issues especially if they show up at a kiruv event or single event and you dont want to embarass someone
LU – the issue was that they were assuming that she was unlikely to do anything about it if she heard she was Jewish. She was probably a religious christian married to a religious christian. I don’t know for sure, but most of our not-Jewish teachers were religious christians, so there’s a good chance she was.
But it’s true – I would think it’s a good idea to tell someone so at least maybe one day their kids will find out and do something about it. But it’s a good idea to find out what the halacha is in case there really is an issue.
“Though technically someone with a Christian father is also Christian.”
That sentence is not true. Anyone with a Jewish mother is Jewish and not a christian. Perhaps what you meant to say is: “The christians mistakenly think that anyone with a christian father is a christian even if the person’s mother is Jewish. However, they are wrong, since such a person is 100% Jewish.”
In any case, the christians think that everyone is meant to be christian. As far as I know, they have no concept of being christian by birth. Maybe you mean the Muslims?
My children, when they were very young. It went well.
Huju – lol
Do you know that a girl whose father isn’t Jewish is not allowed to marry a
Kohen? A lot of people don’t know that halacha, and it has a lot of practical ramifications nowadays.
I had a friend who had to break up with a guy she liked whom she had already gone out with a few times because of that. The guy has some svara as to why it might be okay (in their case, at least), and he asked Rav Shlomo Zalman Auerbach zatsal, but he said it was assur.
I once met a Jewish girl whose grandmother was catholic. (her mother was Jewish and her father wasn’t. She was a bt). She said that her grandmother told her that she believes she will be d_ _ _ ed because she does not believe in the things that they do.
I was always under the impression that christians felt that everyone has to be part of their religion. That is why they have missionaries.
Christianity is a belief, not a birthright or nationality.
Judaism, l’havdil is a birthright. That is why a Jew is a Jew forever even if he doesn’t believe in or do anything. And that is why we don’t have missionaries.
I think Jews are considered an ethnoreligious group.
Recommended reading on the topic: Playing with Fire by Tova Mordechai, a BT born to Jewish mother and Christian father, who grew up in an Evangical church thinking she was Christian. B”H she discovered otherwise, when a Rabbi told her she was Jewish. Old book, but really interesting. Warning, a lot of christian theology in it, as author describes her journey and disillusionment with her church and its thinking.
I once worked at a place that had a secretary who was marrying a Catholic and so was converting from some Protestant denomination to Catholicism. She told me that her maternal grandmother was Jewish. I told her that according to Jewish belief, that made her Jewish. This was about 40 years ago, so my memory of her reaction is a little hazy. I think she either said that’s interesting, or she said she had already been told. In any case, it didn’t change her plans.
Just like most Yidden recognize the seriousness and complexity of the conversion process and would refer the person to a well-trained rabbinic authority, I think the seemingly innocuous act of notifying someone who believes otherwise that s/he is Jewish is is not task for the layperson.
One needs to thoroughly research the lineage of the person who has lived as a non-Jewish person rather than simply rely on claims of Jewish ancestry. This is especially critical in our day where the criteria for Jewish identity itself is in dispute by a variety of factions.
Just consider the proof required to convince the Israeli Chief Rabbinate of one’s Jewishness. I think the current standard is documentary proof of matrilineal descent to at least four generations among other things. That documentation may not even exist depending on where and when (how?) the person was born and raised.
Aside from the issues concerning marriage, bishul akum, stam yayin, basar sh-nitaleim min ha hayin, aidus, participation in the Pesach and so on, there’s even a prohibition in halacha for a non-Jewish person to observe Shabbos.
Are these the sort of issues any responsible person would approach in a cavalier manner?
We’re speaking of cases where it can be established with confidence that the person, who is unaware they’re Jewish, is in fact Jewish.
This is a far different case than a potential convert.
LB: Someone whose father is Jewish and mother is a gentile, is as Jewish as… Pope Francis.
The answer to your question is the same as when dealing with a “black Hebrew”, Mormon or Samaritan who thinks he’s Jewish.
Lilmod, the girl told me her dad mother was Jewish as in she is not Jewish but her father is.
Blubluh, I don’t think you’re correct about the standards of the Chief Rabbinate. My daughter is adopted. Her birth mother was Jewish. It was easier for her to get married in Israel (which needed the approval of the Chief Rabbinate) than to convince the medina she was Jewish for purposes of aliyah.
Joseph, Mormons don’t think they’re Jewish, but they call non-Mormons gentiles. So if you go to Utah, you too can be a gentile.
rebshidduch – her father’s mother being Jewish does not make her Jewish.
The only thing that would make her Jewish is if her mother is Jewish. Is her mother Jewish?
Avi: “He will then go from being anoos to hsogeg and maybe even meizid.”
That is the reason I was given that you are not supposed to tell them. But again, I do not know if it is correct (since my source of information was not reliable), so everyone should ask a sheilah if they are in that situation.
Joseph: I don’t understand the distinction you’re making “where it can be established with confidence that the person…is in fact Jewish.”
Doesn’t achieving “established with confidence” require significant due diligence (i.e., a job best left to experts)?
Were the person’s Jewish identity so obvious, how did that fact escape that very individual’s own notice? I think something’s missing in the equation.
It happens that someone’s maternal grandmother was well known to be Jewish, her daughter R”L unfortunately went off the derech or shmadded and never told her children she’s Jewish. And those children grew up unaware of being Jewish.
A gentile once told me I was Jewey. I am pretty sure it was not a compliment, nor was it intended to inform me of my religion.
Despite the powerfully emotional, romantic and inspirational aspects of these anecdotes, I still wonder whether a claim – even a death bed declaration – which contradicts a lifetime of behavior is to be treated as fact without significant investigation and verification.
It just seems a bit too risky considering the seriousness of the consequences.
In the cases I heard of, it was nothing like that. The grandmother had not been hiding her Jewishness. The grandchildren simply didn’t realize that the fact that their mother’s mother was Jewish made them Jewish. I think the grandmother had been hidden by goyim during the holocaust and ended up intermarrying, and the kids were brought up as christians like their father. I’m not sure of the exact details (I was a kid at the time) but my impression is that it was something like that. I think there may be many cases like that, r”l.
In any case, you are right that a sheilah should be asked regarding what to say as well as whether or not the person is to be believed.
Sometimes we believe a dying declaration because a person does not sin when he has nothing to gain (Rambam Mishna Archin 6:1). However, we do not believe it against a presumption (Baba Batra 134b and SA EH 157,7).
As for the three types of people who discovered that they are Jewish, the first must undergo giur l’chumra as it cannot be known if they married non-Jews during the last 500+ years (BTW, there are also many in Latin America, Spain and Portugal). Rav Aharon Soloveichik, however, wrote:
“They must be treated like full Jews in every way (counted for a
minyan, given aliyot, etc.).
Only when one of these anousim wishes to marry a Jew, must he or she
undergo full conversion. That is, he or she must undergo immersion in
a mikve (without the blessing) and full acceptance of mitzvot or
commitment to the Torah. A man, if he is uncircumcised, must in
addition undergo circumcision; if he is already circumcised, then he
has to undergo hatafat dam brit.”
There is an organization called The Association of Crypto-Jews of the Americas which works to re-integrate them in the Jewish community.
Regarding the latter, archives can be searched for documentation.
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.