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We already have NYPD vs. Hatzalah, so what’s the big deal about Hatzulas Nefashos vs. Hatzalah?
On a more serious note, why is it surprising that Hatzalah got a new competitor in Hatzulas Nefashos, when in recent years we saw the exact same phenomenon with other chesed organizations?
We have Misaskim opening up to compete with Chesed Shel Emes, Shmira opening up to compete with Shomrim, and Chavivim opening up to compete with Chaveirim. And these are just some examples that immediately come to mind; there’s other prominent examples as well.
All of the above are duplicative. If someone is equally opposed to the duplication of an already existing community service and have opposed all of the above, and they are being consistent in opposing Misaskim, Shmira, Chavivim, etc., it makes logical sense to oppose Hatzulas Nefashos. And that’s a fair and wise position. But if one is only selectively opposed to a duplicative organization, then it is simply politics.
There is a big difference if people are competing to change your flat tire vs competing to provide potentially life saving care – oh, when one side is woefully unprepared for the task…… although one side does have a cyber truck so………
This is a shvere issue and I don’t know what the proper approach should be.
I’m not privy to the details surrounding the recently publicly published case, but I am sure that either side will use it to further their case, regardless of the facts or circumstances.
Yet, It’s important to understand that no two situations are alike. The standard of pre-hospital care is to provide advanced life support services. This is for emergencies that require more than a basic assessment and transport to the hospital. Not only do these advanced interventions directly save lives, but they can diagnose certain time-sensitive diseases, such as heart attacks, and notify the receiving hospital so they can activate the appropriate team, all while initiating treatment and continuous monitoring.
Without advanced capabilities, the basic providers may be forced to transport the patient to the nearest hospital, which often will not be the appropriate hospital, as it may not have the capabilities to treat this patient. The unnecessary delay in care may cause a worse outcome than if they would have had the capability of transporting to a more appropriate hospital.
This is in addition to the fact that having an agency that regularly treats and resuscitates patients, as well as having an integrated ALS system, improves the chances for success and better patient management. This is beyond the original EMT certification, but being in a system that regularly treats these patients is an important factor.
These are just a few of many reasons why there is more to managing a health care system, especially a pre-hospital response system comprised of volunteers tasked with managing critical patients, and should not be compared to a chesed organization that is here to help with something such as a flat tire.
Rabbonim should step in and force competing organizations to cooperate when necessary. For example, if one of them can handle simple cases but not complicated ones, they should refer potentially complicated cases to their competitor. This is done. We have competing kashrus organizations certifying each other’s ingredients, for example.
If, and IF the competition would be adequately trained and qualified for the job, the only thing that it could bring is good, as it’s rival would strive to show they’re better at the job, to which the competition would reply in kind etc, up-ending the bar of quality in the service they provide.
Competition per se is a very good thing, just it needs to be done proper.
I’d imagine that they can’t get the licence and certification from their respective authorities unless they meet a certain base standard….?“having an integrated ALS system”
For most conditions BLS is superior. You are better off just getting to the hospital faster.
Modern,
You ignore the instances where the patients cannot afford the time it takes to reach the hospital and also where the lack of ALS prevents the crew from transporting to an appropriate hospital that may be further away.
Furthermore, diagnosing active heart attacks and activating the cardiac cath team cannot be done on a BLS level.
These are just a few of many instances where lacking ALS integration may be detrimental to patient outcomes.
As long as they are not offering these services or regularly treating and resuscitating sick patients, it is not offering a competitive service to the community.
They took a survey of fifth graders, 95% of them want to Hatzolah members when they grow up, 90 % grow up
@UJM, I fail to see your point. Hatzalah of Lakewood changed their name to Hatzala of Central Jersey for political reasons too.
As someone who spoke to the guy whose son choking was the catalyst for HN being opened, it is true that the then Hatzalah of Lakewood had a huge issue of not having enough members to cover the area, despite fully qualified members who had moved into the area requesting to become members. I’m not getting into the “why” of it. If you want to believe it’s because of the levush/lifestyle of the person I’m not going to stop you because there is some evidence of that, but it’s beside the point.
Reality is that the person who started HN is known to be a doer, and also known to respond to threats, put-downs, and attacks by becoming more determined and not backing down. So when Hatzalah responded to them opening by complaining and attacking him, he went further and made sure to really make it a big project and yes, also did some things that were petty. But anyone who knows him would’ve told you that.
Hatzalah begrudgingly put one, then another bus in the area, which wasn’t nearly enough. There wouldn’t be the amount of Hatzalah coverage in the outer communities if not for HN. It’s just a shame that Hatzalah’s ego didn’t allow them to swallow their pride and work together with the new neighborhood members.
One side has well known respected rabbonim (lit is hand chasidish) backing them and the other does not. I know nothing more about the issue but that’s all I need to know.
So, this is a good test for our modern social system. Is there a beis din, regular or zabla, that can take this case? If not in Lakewood, then when?
In the long run, competition will force Hatzalah to be at the top of their game.
In the short term, Hashem yishmor from the bad outcomes which would seem likely when there’s an inexperienced organization responding to serious medical emergencies.
Pony because that’s the establishment. Hatzalah was once not needed. 911 goes straight to volunteer ambulance dispatchers. They also bill your insurance anyway.
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Establishment? These are choshove busy rabbonim that have better things to do with their time than play politics. R’ Chaim Meir Roth, Reb SB Cohen and the Skverer Dayan wrote a letter because they meant what they wrote, not because they are “the establishment”. I have no idea who the fellow that opened HN is but if he feels it’s worthy to fight with rabbonim, that honestly tells me all I need to know.
Does “establishment” make chosheve rabbonim ois rov? Ridiculous and shameful!!!!
why are we dealing with letters from Rabonim instead of getting a psak from a beis din?
@UJM, at this point? no. The guy who started HN has that kind of attitude unfortunately, once you treat him terribly, he will never forgive you. But initially? Of course he would’ve. That’s what the community was begging for from day 1. Take our members into Hatzalah, even though they are chasidim.
Rabbonim issue hadracha for the wider tzibbur when the issues call for it. A beis din issues a psak when there has been a hazmana and a din Torah.
Pony, right, so the original Hatzolah might call the new one to beis din. Bava Basra discusses that a professional guild can regulate their members, but if there is a Talmid Chacham, they should go to him for a ruling. Maybe, Hatzolah will be limited to their own losses, and they do not have a standing to defend community standards?
I don’t understand your point. Why should Hatzolah take these kids to a din Torah? They don’t feel the need to. There was a need to warn the community of the danger of relying on an organization that doesn’t have the same training, experience and wherewithal when it comes to a life saving situation. The rabbonim have an obligation to speak out to warn the community of the dangers. Why should they care to take anyone to a din torah??
Pony, I get your point – you are saying Hatzolah itself did not protest. Assuming this is true, still a community with many Talmidei Chachomim should have a way to jointly manage community-wide issues.
While we are in this topic, can someone share their, or heard of, experiences of addressing daily issues via Batei Din? Here, in OOT community, when I was involved in a minor accident created by a member of the kahal, a Rav advised me to (surely) report this via insurance to make sure he learned the lesson. I presume in a more Jewishly-dense community, fender benders and property encroachments are resolved via Batei Din. What are your actual experiences?
> , is a known halachic shaila.
exactly, in this case, I did not want to, but Rav said I probably should due to total lack of awareness from the offender (before and after causing the accident). So, please describe how this happens under the Batei dinim.
so what is happening in practice? did you not ever have a fender bender in Monsey?
If you have a beis din, you don’t even need to touch a machlokes, let beis din to deal with that.
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