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Avram -“I’ve never done a poll.”
Neither have I, but considering most births occur in the hospital -I’d say most women aren’t that negative about it as you!
“Excellent suggestions for normal, healthy pregnancies.”
So – have you even convinced your family members to go this route?
“No, I’m not talking about that. I’m talking about what you said to Nechomah:”
“Sorry to say, I don’t feel that you are very educated.”
“That was a personal attack.”
Again, if you stand it alone -you can call it that. But that isn’t the case. She claimed to be different than everyone else even though she delivered outside of the hospital. I took her word on that, but asked her why she thinks she is more educated than others. After she posted her story, it didn’t seem she really had that much education. So my theory still stands. If you want to call this a personal attack -go ahead if this what makes you happy!
the.nurse – “Health –
You talk about being don l’kaf zchus others and are upset people are ‘bashing’ you.”
It’s ok, you can bash me as much as you want – if this is how you get your kicks. Just tell me -why do you keep jumping onto the bandwagon here -do you have something against me?
If you are not married – if and when you do find a spouse – you will have a hard time getting along with him/her – if you only see the negative in people.
“Let me use your own words:
To real-brisker: “RB – Maybe you should change your name to Chochom from the Ma Nish Taneh? I actually was waiting for s/o to post what you wrote. I wonder how many people believe you?”…And the next thing some Chochom will write is that they all plan their births.”
I called him out for a reason, not for my kicks. He was suffering from an acute case of “posting before thinking syndrome”!
“To yentingyenta: “Well thank you. Did you ever see this or are you just quoting your nursing textbook?”
This actually was Not a rank out. I wanted to know if she saw this in the clinical world. Maybe the “Well, thank you” was a little sarcastic.
“To nechomah: “Since you claim to be well educated, (which could be true, but I’m not so sure)”.. And again “Sorry to say, I don’t feel that you are very educated.”
Read My Post to Avram!
“There is a way to disagree that’s respectful, and a way to disagree that is insulting and sarcastic/degrading.”
You should Practice what you Preach!
i think this has gone far enough. have i had bruised feelings from health? yes i have. but i have learned not to take it personally. i don’t know what happened between health and nechomah, RB, Avrom, and the.nurse but i think its end of civil conversation. can we please stop the name calling, people bashing and insulting?
health, i ask you please not to take what i am about to say too personally. sometimes your posts come across as harsh and demeaning, even if you did not mean it that way. a simple suggestion, after writing a post, reread it and see if it will be read by others as a harsh post or a post that will enhance the thread and the topic at hand.
to everyone else, maybe its also partly our fault. next time we read a post that seems negative, perhaps a second read with out adding a mental tone of voice to the post may be beneficial. IY”H i’m going to try to do this as well.
lets try and end this argument on a better note and not let it spiral out of control.
YW Moderator-72 -“Everything you state as fact is nothing more than your opinion.”
Why are you posting this as a Chidush? Since We are all anonymous -our posts are just opinions!
And btw, when I “copy and paste” from a medical site -it’s a fact, even if you disagree! (Unless you have proof from another valid medical site -that agrees with you!)
“It’s funny how you can judge other posters here and their knowledge base from their posts without even knowing them.
Did you ever hear of the Jewish concept of being Dan L’caf Z’cus? Esp. since you never saw any of the posters on the diabetes thread or this thread as real patients?!!”
Where did I not judge up anybody L’caf Zecus including Diabetics?
“The only difference is I removed the redundancies (google it for the definition*) and fixed some of the grammar.
* this comment didn’t have to be included and was probably inappropriate but once again I couldn’t resist.”
Did the guys from the Yeshiva, when you where there, think that you were a riot? Does your wife and others (family, friends) constantly tell you how funny you are? If they do, that’s their opinion, Not Mine!
Health
I have nothing against you and do not wish to argue with you. Though I don’t post often, I do read the threads a lot, and I have found, as yentingyenta pointed out, that often your posts seem very sarcastic and insulting to others. I have never said anything to you before about it because I figured it wasn’t my place. However, in this thread, I think you insulted a few people (maybe unintentionally) and once the topic was brought up, I stuck in my few cents. Maybe I shouldn’t have. But I felt strongly about it and chose to. If I hurt you in any way, I apologize.
Again, I have nothing against you and do not wish to cause machlokes here. Maybe, as yentingyenta stated, you should re-read your posts before posting because many times people can take them the wrong way.
I wish you much hatzlocha.
yentingyenta -“have i had bruised feelings from health? yes i have.”
Sorry, I probably didn’t mean it.
“but i have learned not to take it personally.”
Good!
“i don’t know what happened between health and nechomah,”
I didn’t Personally insult her, but some posters here decided I did and called me out on it.
“RB,”
I did, but not for my kicks as I explained above.
“Avrom, and the.nurse”
They are some of the posters who called me out on it.
“health, i ask you please not to take what i am about to say too personally. sometimes your posts come across as harsh and demeaning,”
Sometimes they are meant to and sometimes not. But it’s all for good reason.
the.nurse -Your last post is practicing what you preach.
See I’m not the ogre e/o thinks I am -I just gave a compliment. 🙂
Health
Member
“Where did I not judge up anybody L’caf Zecus including Diabetics?”
To nechomah: “Since you claim to be well educated, (which could be true, but I’m not so sure)”
not exactly what an honest person would call giving the benefit of the doubt – in reality this one line uproots your claim to do so.
_______________________
and being as you asked
Does your wife and others (family, friends) constantly tell you how funny you are? If they do, that’s their opinion, Not Mine!
the answer is constantly tell me: NO! Frequently? NO. A bunch of times in the course of the year? NO! Once every so often? perhaps. Many times they laugh at my jokes, quips and humorous stories (many times – not all times. Even Johny Carson didn’t get a laugh every time but at least he had an applause and laugh monitor for his audience). YES, they really do – sorry I am not going to post a video as proof. you will have to trust me that they do – but if you want to doubt it – fine by me – I will still sleep well. Yes, it is there opinion that I am a humorous person and not yours – but it is their opinion that counts in my life and Not Yours (caps to match your caps)! (note: this was not a personal attack just a statement of fact – even if you cannot google it).
I am sure that your spouse and family consider you the gadol hador in the health sciences world. I am sure that they view you as a kind, compassionate, caring and warm person. Perhaps IRL you come across that way because perhaps IRL you are – I haven’t a clue. My concern is the way you come off here in cyber-world and that you make people feel (very) uncomfortable.
You were given some good advice up there (even if it wasn’t googled from a valid medical website – one with the health hecksher). Perhaps you should think about it and follow it.
Health – What do you mean not for your kicks, rather?
Gosh, I hate to come back in this conversation since I seem to be the one who started all this bashing, which I totally did not mean to do, but I just wanted to make a final point or two.
Health, I did not mean to attack you, but rather your idea that education or lack thereof is the reason for the high #s of home births amongst frum women. I honestly do not think that education is the issue. How many times can a woman take a class on labor and delivery, once, twice at most as a refresher. Well, just keep in mind that we go way past those #s on average in our families, b”H, and since each birth is different, it would not be possible to educate each frum (or even not frum) woman on what could happen during her labor process to ensure that she would get to the hospital on time. Lots of things can happen in the middle of a labor (which was my whole point all along) and no matter how “educated” she may or may not be, it is simply not possible to get to the hospital on time. In my situation, I was alone and without transportation other than an ambulance or taxi and I had been managing my contractions just fine up until a certain point, where things escalated in what seemed like a minute and at that point it was too late, but I couldn’t have known that in advance. Maybe if I had known than regular contractions coming every 10 minutes for a multipara would be the signal to go to the hospital, I might have gone earlier, but I’m not 100% sure.
Finally, the reason I’m not 100% sure is, as someone posted above, the high rate of excessive intervention in births of women who get to the hospital “too early”. What I mean is for that a woman who is in active labor, but not progressing rapidly, many times the doctors start doing all sorts of things to help speed things along that in many cases end up resulting in a cesarean section. I would like to know what are the rates of frum women versus non-frum women having cesarean sections in the overall population in America. I know you can’t provide these #s, but I can say that I only had 1 in my 6 births and it was for a good reason – my baby was in distress. It’s not that I wanted to have my baby at 37 weeks because I couldn’t stand being pregnant anymore (only my last baby – the ambulance one – was born less than 1 1/2 weeks after my due date). The induction rates in America are, in my opinion, horrifying, and show a general “I want it now” syndrome that we all know is prevalent in American society in general, and it is leading to a lot of unnecessary surgeries. I was managing one of my labors just fine at home and went to the hospital early on just to make sure I delivered there, and I ended up having an pleasant experience because I was forced to lie on the bed for more than 3 hours without getting up to walk around simply because I had had a cesarean before and they wanted to monitor me. I was glad for the caution, but it made things very uncomfortable, which, like I originally said, until a man personally delivers a baby, he can never understand what this feels like.
I do know another woman who had a baby on Shabbos and Hatzola came to help her in the birth. One of her friend’s husbands is a Hatzola member and he made sure other Hatzola staff helped before him so that she would not be embarrassed later on if she saw him. Having a man you know personally deliver your baby is a lot different than having him help you when you hit your head, break your arm, or suffer any other of a number of medical emergencies that need help from Hatzola.
OK, I’m finished now. On a personal note, it’s not fair to pigeon-hole people based on your perceptions of what they say in this forum. It’s not possible to convey our whole body of knowledge in one of these posts (simply for time and space for reader and writer both) and you should not assume to understand a person so well to make the assumptions that you do. I have had numerous male OB/Gyn’s over the course of my childbearing years, only taking a female when I was told that she was the best qualified doctor to handle my situation at the time. Also, here in EY, we don’t have the option unless you go private to pick the doctor who will be present at your birth. In both of my hospital births here in EY, there were numerous male doctors and also a female midwife present during my births.
Thanks everybody who stood up to defend me. I don’t think it’s necessary to continue to bash Health since he probably won’t change based on our assessments of his personality anymore than we will based on his assessments of ours. Maybe it’s best to close this thread.
RB – You know exactly what I mean. It’s not that you just posted w/o thinking -it’s that people will believe it. So sometimes people need to be told off. Maybe your posting here because you get kicks out of it, but a lot of topics are very important.
There is a problem amonst Frum women -that a lot can’t make it on time to the hospital for delivery. Freier had one solution -I had another. Denying the problem just excuses e/o from not doing anything!
Nechoma -You make some interesting points.
“Maybe if I had known than regular contractions coming every 10 minutes for a multipara would be the signal to go to the hospital, I might have gone earlier, but I’m not 100% sure.”
But there definitely is the possibility that you would have made it.
I read this topic and I started wondering -why do Frum women not make it on time to the hospital? So I theorized that it’s due to lack of education more than the Goyim. If s/o goes and teaches e/o does that mean noone will deliver in the pre-hospital arena? Of course not, but maybe we can lower the rates. Your theory about people not wanting to go early -I don’t think is the reason by most, even though I empathize with you being stuck on the bed. Most women stick up for themselves and don’t let them get pushed around like that. If they can’t, they hire a doula -which nowadays is very popular. If people were so scared of hospitals they wouldn’t wait till the last minute to go and perhaps have the baby w/o anyone to deliver the kid, they would just arrange to give birth in a birthing center.
I’m just trying to make people aware that there is a problem amongst Frum women who aren’t delivering in the hospital as much as they should. Frier’s solution isn’t a solution because even if e/o was on board with her idea (Hatzola, etc.) -the child is still not being born in the best environment. But she is a lawyer, not a doctor and all she knows is what she is hearing from her friends that they were embarassed to call Hatzola. So she thinks the only problem is Tznius. Whether it should be a birthing center or a hospital that should be the individual’s decision. But it shouldn’t be a non-planned home birth or in the back of the bus (ambulance)! I tried to come up with a more logical solution than her.
Health,
“It’s not that you just posted w/o thinking -it’s that people will believe it. So sometimes people need to be told off.”
What??
I didn’t want to post here again, but do you understand what you are writing? RB is not your child and he definitely does not need to be told off by you. Like I wrote previously, if you disagree with a poster or see that what they’re writing is incorrect, you can write your post respectfully. Calling someone a ‘chochom’ when you know that in essence you are calling him a dummy, is completely unnecessary, disrespectful and insulting.
Sorry to come off sounding harsh, but I hope you understand what I’m writing. I am truly not trying to be mean here, I’m just asking for some sensitivity from you when posting. I don’t think calling others names (i.e. chochom, uneducated) is ever appropriate.
I hope you can read this post objectively and not take it as a personal bashing, because I honestly don’t mean it that way.
Health – “maybe you just posting to get the kicks out of it”. I think I have better things to do with my time than that.
nechomah, i don’t think you started this. your last post is eloquently written and well explained.
health, i’m going to do a little experiment. i’m going to tell you the same thing but in 2 ways.
1-YOU MISSED THE BOAT!!!!!!!!!!! how can you possibly have not understood what i was trying to tell you. you know what your problem is? oh you do? good because i dont. but i know part of your problem. you read each post and then nitpick on each peice thereby missing the grand scheme of things. and what the heck do you mean that you say demeaning things on purpose? isnt there a thing called not hurting other’s feelings? you do know the first few times you insulted me i did take it personally. but then i realized you have something against the female gender so not so insulted anymore
2-health, i think you missed the point i was trying to make. it could be its my fault for this; i may not have said it clearly. personally i think it may be because the way you take some of the posts apart and comment on specific points rather than see it as a whole post. i’m still alittle confused as what you meant when you said “Sometimes they are meant to and sometimes not. But it’s all for good reason”. i don’t know when it is a good reason to insult others. one last note, i used to be very sensitive but over this year i have gained something i never really had, and thats self esteem. but thats from nursing school, not from growing a thick skin.
k now since you read both, which post would YOU rather have. you are free to choose.
(the point of this was just to show you there are 2 ways of saying basically the same thing. it just depends on how it is said)
just one last point, is this phenomena of women waiting found in all communities? i asked this previously but no one had an answer.
the.nurse – Thank you for understanding.
Hi Health,
Neither have I, but considering most births occur in the hospital -I’d say most women aren’t that negative about it as you!
Or maybe they’re just not educated enough about the issues… 🙂
So – have you even convinced your family members to go this route?
My wife convinced me.
Yenta – I don’t see why you feel the need to lecture me -you’re not my mother.
The first way of posting doesn’t bother me, if you feel so inclined -you can post like that. But it has a lie in it – “but then i realized you have something against the female gender so not so insulted anymore”! And lying just makes your point look disgenuine, even if you had a real point!
Nurse -“What?? I didn’t want to post here again,”
So why did you?
“but do you understand what you are writing?”
Yes, I do!
“RB is not your child and he definitely does not need to be told off by you.”
And I’m not your child and I definitely Don’t need to be told off by You!
“Like I wrote previously, if you disagree with a poster or see that what they’re writing is incorrect, you can write your post respectfully. Calling someone a ‘chochom’ when you know that in essence you are calling him a dummy, is completely unnecessary, disrespectful and insulting.”
So true! But how come you don’t Practice what You Preach?
Avram in MD -“Or maybe they’re just not educated enough about the issues… “
Seems a little hypocritical to me -only the ones whom don’t make it on time to the hospital are the educated ones and know to avoid the hospital at all costs; but the vast majority of women who decide to give birth in the hospital instead of waiting till the last minute or going to a birthing center are the uneducated ones!
“My wife convinced me.”
So now you are her spokesman! I’m not so against birthing centers as you would think. But she can come here and post her opinions about birthing places herself! Actually there is a topic in the CR that discusses this. It would be more appropiate to post it over there than in this topic.
health, i wasnt trying to lecture to you, just trying to show you why some posters get offended by the way you write. i’m sorry if i offended you. (and i won’t be posting like the first way. it didnt feel right). and what was the lie in my post?
Ok, Health, forget it, I give up. You obviously are not getting the point that everyone here is trying to explain to you. Like another poster stated, you are picking apart everyone’s posts and commenting on certain statements, but missing the whole point.
I wish you much hatzlacha.
mods, can we close this?
I agree. this thread is getting way to vicious! It should be closed for the good of the cr.
yentingyenta -“and what was the lie in my post?”
It’s in quotation marks in my post to you. Btw, I have nothing against females.
sorry health, read it 5x. i said i was less insulted personally because you do this to all women (or so it seems) so once its not a personal attack, its less insulting.
what lie did you read in my post?
forget it. don’t answer me. we are not going to agree. mods? i agree w/ choco and isometimes.
Yenta – “but then i realized you have something against the female gender” Is Not the same as:
“i said i was less insulted personally because you do this to all women”
The first quote Is Not True! Why would you say this?
Mods – For Heavens Sake! Please Close this Thread.
Since when? And where??
coreytothecup -“Has ANYONE seen the new “hatzolah” team of woman that helps with delivery?? SEE YWNCR has had an effect on the klal!!! way to go!!!”
They just got their operating license from Albany.
Who is going to be footing their bill?
what does this mean?
they will be a regular ambulance corp, or a rescue squad?
will they respond in their private cars using lights and sirens?
what area does this license cover?
2scents -“they will be a regular ambulance corp, or a rescue squad?”
They have the license to do it in NYS.
Do you want to join?
But I’m afraid they will reject you because you are a male.
The same way Hatzola rejected them because they aren’t male.
I’m not a Squareh Chossid, but they got it right. Males respond to regular emerg. and females go to woman emerg. in Squaretown.
“will they respond in their private cars using lights and sirens?”
And why Not?
“what area does this license cover?”
NYS -BLS. They do hope to apply for ALS soon also.
The Frum community/comedy is getting funnier by the minute.
Health,
;
Your a bit off, in New Square, males respond, the females get picked up either with the bus or a member picks them up, they get dispatched (or paged) only AFTER there is a full regular crew.
In fact, it isn’t really working in New Square, the members admit to it. Its all because the Rebbe decided to do it.
2scents -“Your a bit off, in New Square, males respond, the females get picked up either with the bus or a member picks them up, they get dispatched (or paged) only AFTER there is a full regular crew.
In fact, it isn’t really working in New Square, the members admit to it. Its all because the Rebbe decided to do it.”
You’re right -doesn’t sound like the perfect situation. But I mean they got it right -that they have the right idea.
It wouldn’t have been too hard to figure out a way. I read on one of the Frum blogs that Hatzola could have had them join. (I added in some of my ideas with this guys’.) They get dispatched along with regular members and the males assess without examination and if the birth is imminent -they deliver. If it’s not imminent -they wait for the females to come to assess & exam and they back off. They stand outside and they drive the bus and help load and unload. They don’t even have to be in the back of the bus -they can sit upfront. One of the members drives their car to the hospital so they don’t even have to be with males on the way back.
There definitely is a lack of Achdus amongst many people. When there is a will – there’s (a relative) a way!
IMHO, this is so wrong. Whenever i think of this group of women, I just keep seeing this image in my head of a mother making supper, listening to her children talk about their day, rocking the baby with one foot, keeping an eye on the laundry, preparing snacks/lunch for the next day, etc… and running off in middle to help someone else. Not exactly so ideal. A mother should be there for her family.
I personally am more comfortable with a male dr. and i know many others who are too.
Maybe i’d get used to the idea of women responding if they ever are accepted, but i just cant see it now.
I will tell you why it will not work.
There are a lot of issues that have to be handled, which are far more serious than a male delivering a baby.
There is the issue of being in the back of the ambulance with two female responders, there are some members that do not respond to OB calls only they feel that it is not right that they should be together with Females riding home from the hospital.
After all they were through a dramatic situation, it is more than normal to discuss it and give your personal opinion on what should have done differently, etc.
Each delivery in NY gets ALS, there will always be paramedics in the back of the bus. Some medics have already sent off the females from the bus due to
Maybe I’m slow, but I don’t see why there can’t be a male going to asses that it’s not a faker trying to get a woman alone in the house. Once that is assessed, why can’t women handle the whole situation including the transfer and driving the ambulance? Also, childbirth isn’t the only time woman would need EMT assistance. A friend’s mother burned herself in a private place and it was very embarrassing for her.
I have a better idea. You pathetic New Yorkers should stop giving birth in ambulances. GO TO THE BLAZED HOSPITAL like everyone else in American does.
I seriously think the existence of hatzolo has turned you all into the most complete lunatics about your health. If you are in labor, you get in your car, drive to the supermarket to pick up some donuts for the nurses so they treat you well, and then drive to the hospital and check yourself in. You shouldn’t be waiting until the last moment and then calling an ambulance.
And this goes for most other health issues also. If you cut yourself, you get in your car and drive to the hospital; if you break a limb, you get in your car and drive to the hospital. If you can’t drive, you call a taxi. If you aren’t feeling well, you call your doctor and ask what to do; if he says go to the emergency room, you get in your car and drive to the hospital.
That’s how the rest of the world works, where ambulances aren’t free taxi rides. Calling 911 is for when you have chest pains or stroke symptoms or something else which is a minute to minute emergency. I’ll give you a pro-tip: If the ambulance doesn’t call in to the hospital to get them ready for you, then you didn’t need an ambulance.
Part of what contributes to this is that people think they’ll be cared for earlier if they come in an ambulance. It isn’t true. My brother is hatzolo, and has seen the patients he brought earlier still sitting and waiting on a gurney when he came back with new patients way later. Only, they are also strapped into a ridiculous brace because that’s what the EMT protocol is.
If it is really an emergency, you won’t care if the EMT is male, female, or a klingon. If you care, then it isn’t an emergency, and you should call a taxi.
miritchka -“IMHO, this is so wrong.”
Hey, if you join EN -you and your hubby can share war stories.
2scents -“I will tell you why it will not work.”
It would help if you read my post before responding because I addressed some of your issues already.
“There are a lot of issues that have to be handled, which are far more serious than a male delivering a baby.
There is the issue of being in the back of the ambulance with two female responders, there are some members that do not respond to OB calls only they feel that it is not right that they should be together with Females riding home from the hospital.
After all they were through a dramatic situation, it is more than normal to discuss it and give your personal opinion on what should have done differently, etc.”
I addressed this issue in my post above – this is a prob in New Square. I said this wouldn’t happen here.
“Each delivery in NY gets ALS, there will always be paramedics in the back of the bus. Some medics have already sent off the females from the bus due to”
Yeah I looked up the NYS protocol. It says call ALS in the begining note. Do you know how many protocols say this? The fact is that Childbirth is a BLS call. I even heard this from Hatzolah members, if you don’t believe me. The reason you might need ALS is a childbirth or newborn complication(s). These calls are far & few inbetween. If such a case would occur then medics could be called and the females would pack out. They could just take their car that the male member is driving. And don’t tell me medics have to be in the back of the bus on every birthing call. It doesn’t happen now in any childbirth call commonly.
So come up with a real excuse to defend your org. Hatzolah – if it is indeed your org.!
No shouldn’t be women at all there not qualified for it for many reasons but no I rather a male one for severeal reasons inorder to get s/o on a strecher u normally lift them men are stronger also with prob of yichud ad nigiah its more about the girl who has to protect herself so being a hatzalah member for women won’t work
Popa: We can’t erase things from our memory. And yes, a woman can be affected for years to come even if at the moment she won’t care which gender took care of her.
PBA -“I have a better idea. You pathetic New Yorkers should stop giving birth in ambulances. GO TO THE BLAZED HOSPITAL like everyone else in American does.
I seriously think the existence of hatzolo has turned you all into the most complete lunatics about your health. If you are in labor, you get in your car, drive to the supermarket to pick up some donuts for the nurses so they treat you well, and then drive to the hospital and check yourself in. You shouldn’t be waiting until the last moment and then calling an ambulance.”
Yup. +10 I posted many times the main prob is lack of education -when to go to the hospital.
“And this goes for most other health issues also. If you cut yourself, you get in your car and drive to the hospital; if you break a limb, you get in your car and drive to the hospital. If you can’t drive, you call a taxi. If you aren’t feeling well, you call your doctor and ask what to do; if he says go to the emergency room, you get in your car and drive to the hospital.
That’s how the rest of the world works, where ambulances aren’t free taxi rides. Calling 911 is for when you have chest pains or stroke symptoms or something else which is a minute to minute emergency. I’ll give you a pro-tip: If the ambulance doesn’t call in to the hospital to get them ready for you, then you didn’t need an ambulance.”
Most of the time you’re right. What happened when we were kids?
This is also a lack of education. Lots don’t know basic First Aid – like putting pressure and a clean cloth on a wound and then going to the hospital -so they call Hatzolah.
“If it is really an emergency, you won’t care if the EMT is male, female, or a klingon. If you care, then it isn’t an emergency, and you should call a taxi.”
Or you could call 911. Some systems charge for 911 service – so in these situations – it’s just an expensive taxi!
Okay health and pba ur men so u were never in labor………
superme -“Okay health and pba ur men so u were never in labor….”
Somehow judging your age from your posts, I don’t think you ever were either.
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