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the reason there are more deliveries with Hatzala as with EMS.
is simply because we have more children, meaning that a mother of five or six, will wait till the last minute (washing laundry and dishes) as opposed to a non Jewish family of one and a half.. (including the pet)
I had very long labors and very short deliveries and to tell you the truth, by the time I was ready to deliver I didn’t care if the Janitor delivered my baby, I just wanted that baby out safely and healthy. That is the most important thing. It would be great if everyone can follow their “Birth Plan” but when things get to an emergency level the birth plan is thrown out the window and one should be grateful to have any EMT or qualified person there to deliver a healthy baby into the world. Life is complicated enough and a delivery can be dangerous and complicated. Anyone with any knowledge of birth and delivery is a brocha to have close by. Yes it would be ideal to have a midwife, doula, or female Hatzola member come to one’s rescue but there is no guarantee of that even if women do join Hatzola. And of course when you get to the hospital there is no guarantee that you will have a female doctor deliver your baby either. Even women who choose to have a female OB, there is no guarantee that she will be the one to deliver your baby. She could be in with another patient, she could be in the office, she could be on vacation, she could be stuck in traffic. There are no guarantees.
So although both sides have good points, pros and cons, no matter what decisions are made, there are no guarantees that those who want a female responder will get what they want. And to be stubborn and hold out for one, will only result in dangerous situations and antagonism among Hatzolah members.
If the Rabbonim have already said no to women in Hatzolah, why is she still putting up a fight? Has she no kovod hatorah at all? Does she always disagree with Rabbonim? If she has other Rabbonim that agree with her and are willing to say so publicly, then ok. But otherwise, swallow your pride and whatever other ideas,feminist or otherwise, you have and follow the psak of the Rabbonim.
Mod and RB –
“I guess you’ll just have to take her word for it that 1) she is educated and 2) this was her experience.
I have read enough of your posts to know that I cannot to take your word on anything in the health field – even if you are a “student of health sciences” and even if you teach people CPR.”
“Health – I don’t see any reason to belive it.”
Noone should take my word for anything more than any other poster -this is an anonymous blog. If you don’t belive (for RB) or believe me that’s fine -do your own research. I just know from my own experience, but you can believe whatever you want.
Mod -I can’t reveal more about myself than I already have, being that there are info stealers/gatherers here.
Also, I actually did take her word for it, but I asked her to prove it by answering my question. If she doesn’t, then I’ll have to assume she isn’t as educated as she thinks!
Yenta -There is nothing in your last, long-winded post that I disagree with, but even in first quick labors -you can make it on time to the hospital -me and my (ex)wife did.
Sorry. I’m not good at being concise with words.
Health, I will agree with this, if a baby is crowning it is very difficult for a woman to be in a moving vehicle. It is extremely painful and scary. There is a time when one can travel and there is a time when one needs to be still. Even when one is having very painful and close contractions it is extremely painful to be in a moving vehicle especially going over bumps and potholes. During contractions I asked my hubby to pull to the side of the road.
2scents -“is simply because we have more children, meaning that a mother of five or six, will wait till the last minute (washing laundry and dishes) as opposed to a non Jewish family of one and a half.. (including the pet)”
Btw, we aren’t the only group out there with a lot of kids. Read my previous posts.
This isn’t an excuse to waste other people’s time because you wait till the last minute. Because you waited till the last minute, now you have to have either Hatzolah or EMS take of you.
Let’s say while you are wasting their time -they are needed at a life-threating emergency and the other ambulances are futher away!
Waiting till the last minute and saying “Oh, I can just call Hatzolah or EMS”, is the most selfish thing I’ve ever heard.
That doesn’t mean you shouldn’t call when you have a childbirth emergency -that isn’t due to your negligence!
Aries -“if a baby is crowning it is very difficult for a woman to be in a moving vehicle. It is extremely painful and scary.”
At this time -it’s time to pull over and give birth.
“There is a time when one can travel and there is a time when one needs to be still. Even when one is having very painful and close contractions it is extremely painful to be in a moving vehicle especially going over bumps and potholes. During contractions I asked my hubby to pull to the side of the road.”
Another reason not to wait till the last minute -going by ambulance is a very uncomfortable ride and they don’t pull over, except perhaps during delivery!
Health, I just wanted to get back and answer your question, although I feel no need to “prove myself” that I am educated in these matters. Until you have personally birthed a baby, I wouldn’t start to give advice about who is educated and who isn’t. Standard advice is to wait until contractions are between 6-8 minutes apart. This would ideally be the time you could comfortably travel, the contractions themselves are not lasting too long that to slow down is enough to make it easier on her during an actual contraction (yes I have traveled to the hospital in a taxi in this situation as well), but they’re not so far apart that she’ll get to the hospital and find out that she’s barely started things and is either sent home or sent to walk around the neighborhood until she’s progressed enough to be admitted to the hospital.
I will say that I had been having a lot of contractions, but they were all about 10 minutes apart, not what I would consider to be a dire emergency to run to the hospital. I thought I still had at least a few hours. Suddenly, I would say in the matter of 5 minutes, I went into very strong labor and could barely move in my house and think clearly enough to deal with the situation I was in. I was actually alone at the time and was waiting for my husband to come home so that we could go to the hospital together. I ended calling for an ambulance (which I felt was preferable than delivering in a taxi if necessary). I was able to walk out to the ambulance by myself, but when they started going over speed bumps I realized I couldn’t continue and they pulled over, at which point I delivered the baby within 5 minutes, less than 1 hour from the start of what I considered hard labor. I hope I didn’t give too much detail here that this post will get mod’ed. Please edit whatever is inappropriate for a public website mods. Suffice to say, however, that a woman has to know her own body but no birth can be compared to a prior one, but usually later births are faster than previous ones, although I have known women who have had subsequent births that took twice as long if not more than previous ones. I hope this is enough of a “proof” for you.
Health,
dont get so worked up. I was referring to a fact, not an i deal.
up until recently Birth, has been considered a pure BLS call. however now it is an ALS call.
the reason for that is because most people that call 911 for a birth are people with minimum prenatal care.
however in the Orthodox community people call Hatzala NOT because they are not informed or did not go to a doctor. only because they waited till the last minute.
is it the right thing to do? no! but thats what they do.
Yungerman,
it is very simple. they dont care about the Rabonim and the Torah.
There is a different agenda at play here. that is the reason they did not even consider consulting with the Vaad Rabonim of Hatzalah or any coordinators.
There was an article in one of the goyisha newspapers about this yesterday.
See now, the argument that frum women wait longer because they can just call Hatzoloh (which I don’t believe), actually argues that there should not be women in hatzoloh, so that we incentivizes them to not wait and not call hatzoloh, since it adds to the risks.
2scents -“however in the Orthodox community people call Hatzala NOT because they are not informed or did not go to a doctor. only because they waited till the last minute.
is it the right thing to do? no! but thats what they do.”
After all your argumentative posts, you finally agreed with me!
And that’s why I posted Freier & company are better off starting an org. that educates people about this. The only difference is -that I was Dan everybody L’caf Zecus and said they were uneducated to the fact of when to go to the hospital!
That’s the thing, they will go on talk shows and make it into the non Jewish paper however they will not consult with the rabbonim in charge.
There is a reason why hatzalah has rabbonim on board.
Health, i never disagreed with you.
I was just stating the facts, not if it’s the right thing to do or not.
And for the record, I am not in hatzalah. However I did work in the 911 ambulance corps and attended to OB calls.
Nechomah -“Health, I just wanted to get back and answer your question, although I feel no need to “prove myself” that I am educated in these matters.”
Sorry to say, I don’t feel that you are very educated.
“Until you have personally birthed a baby, I wouldn’t start to give advice about who is educated and who isn’t.”
So you’re the type that only uses female OB’s or midwives. I know male OB’s whom are more competent than others including females. And also, not all female OB’s have had kids. Btw, I’m not an OB.
“Standard advice is to wait until contractions are between 6-8 minutes apart.”
This is definitely not the Standard advice!
From Sutter Health’s website:
“Most physicians and midwives suggest contacting them when your contractions are five minutes apart and lasting 60 seconds and you have had this activity for about an hour.” (Some say four minutes.)
“I will say that I had been having a lot of contractions, but they were all about 10 minutes apart, not what I would consider to be a dire emergency to run to the hospital. I thought I still had at least a few hours. Suddenly, I would say in the matter of 5 minutes, I went into very strong labor and could barely move in my house and think clearly enough to deal with the situation I was in.”
Your lack of knowledge is what caused you to deliver outside the hospital. You falsely believed the Standard, even your Standard which is more on the lenient side is not what I would call -The Truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth. But we can’t educate e/o – we don’t have the time – so therefore the Standard.
Here is what the Family Practice notebook writes about triaging s/o calling & saying that they are in labor:
“Indications: Evaluation at Labor and Delivery”
(obviously in hospital)
“General
Unable to speak during 2 contractions during triage
Suspected Rupture of Membranes
Nulliparous patient
Contractions every 5 minutes
Multiparous patient
Contractions every 8-10 minutes”
During active labor is when patients are admitted to L & D (Hospital).
So what is active labor?
Again from FPN:
“Background
Stage 1 of Labor is divided into two phases
Latent Phase
Active Phase
Assumes regular, frequent palpable contractions
Phase: Latent
Definition
Cervical dilation <4 cm and
Regular contractions
Normal Progress
Nulliparous women
Mean duration: 8.6 hours
Maximum normal duration: 20 hours
Multiparous women
Maximum normal duration: 14 hours
Management
Avoid hospitalization in latent labor
Maximize hydration
Facilitate rest and supportive environment
Phase: Active
Definition
Cervical dilation >4 cm and
Regular contractions
Normal Progress
Nulliparous women
Cervical Dilation: >1.2 cm/hour
Fetal Descent: >1 cm/hour
Multiparous women
Cervical Dilation: >1.5 cm/hour
Fetal Descent: >2 cm/hour”
Had you realized that active labor can be even every 8 -10 minutes and the contractions are around a minute -45 seconds is also good -you would have left for the hospital earlier.
The main thing is that the contractions during the latent phase aren’t so strong and aren’t coming like clockwork (necessarily). The active stage is when those contractions don’t let you do anything else like Shmuz on the phone, blog, etc., during one!
Either they hurt or they are intense.
health, english please? i’m pretty sure most ppl have no clue what you just posted
I think the health wrote it for those that claim to be educated in childbirth.
Although, I think that the entire Megillah could be very much simplified.
Childbirth (less the complications) Is a very uncomplicated procedure. It gets complicated only when something goes wrong.
Yenta – And I thought Medical jargon was English.
So if they don’t understand something they can look it up or You or even Me can explain it. 😉
i understood it the first time around. but last i checked most people in the CR dont speak gibberish 🙂
(i just took my ATI test on maternal NB nursing so it was fresh in my mind hence got it on first pass)
yenta -“i understood it the first time around.”
I figured you did -that’s why I posted “You or (even Me) can explain it. ;)”!
Oooohhhh. Now I chap. 🙂
“yentingyenta
Fun for the Whole Family
health, english please? i’m pretty sure most ppl have no clue what you just posted”
…and what makes you think health understands it? ust like health, I can google, cut and paste all sorts of things and not necessarily understand it.
health to Nechomah: “Sorry to say, I don’t feel that you are very educated.”
mod-72(retired) to health: NOT sorry to ask – are you as arrogant in self-serving in real life as you come off here in the CR? it is a good thing that you are only a “student of health sciences” and not an actual medical practitioner because your pompous attitude would not lead to a good bedside manner.
Why does this have to boil down to personal insults?
I thought we are debating/discussing the subject why all the bashing?
I dont know about Health’s medical degree, however he does have a point.
Health,
So why does the Frum community have so many childbirth related calls? Simple -because they are uneducated.
???? ??? ?????????? ????????????? ???????????? ???? ?????? ?????? ???????? ??????? ??????? ???????????? ?????????
🙂
Not going to write much because this is a public forum, but 72, you wrote exactly what I was thinking.
2cents – Please note that he started with the personal attack. I didn’t post here just to have to “prove myself”.
72 – +1 Thanks. What Health doesn’t realize, since he is not a woman, is that things can change pretty quickly and since HKBH is the one who holds the key to childbirth, it isn’t in our control, so rather than pointing fingers and degrading people, it’s better to recognize that these things just happen.
2scents – The constant bashing from Mod 72 started when I first came to this site and posted on the topic of Diabetes. I don’t remember what I posted, but he took it personally. And ever since then he has been making comments about me being just a guy who cuts and pastes and just a “student of the health sciences”. I honestly don’t remember what I posted, but even if I was wrong -he doesn’t remember that the Torah says -Thou shouldn’t keep a grudge!
Health
If you wouldn’t be so degrading and insulting to others in your posts, I don’t think mod72 would have posted that.
Nechomah – “Please note that he started with the personal attack. I didn’t post here just to have to “prove myself”.”
You aren’t being exactly honest to the posters and to yourself.
Maybe you should read back all the posts. I started with a theory that women in the Frum community aren’t educated enough and therefore have home deliveries. You posted that this wasn’t true by you. Maybe you didn’t mention me by name, but you were arguing on my comment. I therefore challenged you to prove it.
After you telling your story it seemed that you waited to the last minute to go to the hospital and therefore didn’t make it. This points to a lack of education. There was nothing personal in my comments to you. You might have taken my comments personally because the story you were relating was about you -so maybe your emotions got the best of you!
Health,
There was nothing personal in my comments to you. You might have taken my comments personally because the story you were relating was about you -so maybe your emotions got the best of you!
Perhaps you didn’t learn this when you were younger, but to call someone uneducated is a personal attack.
Also, when some OBs and hospital staff pay more attention to their watches and protocols than to the laboring woman and baby, stressing the mother out, then rushing things along for their convenience and jumping too quickly to forceps or surgery, if I were a woman, I’d probably want to wait until the very last minute to go to the hospital, too.
Avram in MD – Perhaps you didn’t learn this when you were younger, but you should read all the posts before you comment. I had made a theory on why Frum women don’t make it on time to deliver at the hospital. I posted that they weren’t educated enough in this area. I included in that theory this poster -this is Not a personal attack!
mod-72, i figured health understood it cuz he offered to explain it to quote: “So if they don’t understand something they can look it up or You or even Me can explain it. ;)”
health, why are you so secretive about your role in medicine? i mean even if you say your a nurse there’s nothing wrong with that…
OK, so I guess that this discussion (Hatzola) has reached its final point.
From here on only post if you have something negative to mention the more personal you get, the better!
time to move on..
ok, to everyone that is bashing Health: I’ve read some of Healths posts and I have to say that if you really read the info s/he writes, you will see that its useful and seems to be truthful too. IMHO, Health is passionate about what s/he writes and therefore it comes across in his/her posts.
The first time that Health responded to one of my posts, I too felt ready to defend myself and bash him/her! But now i see s/he means no harm.
So everyone, just take a deep breath and calm down! 😉
Health,
Avram in MD – Perhaps you didn’t learn this when you were younger, but you should read all the posts before you comment.
I did.
I had made a theory on why Frum women don’t make it on time to deliver at the hospital. I posted that they weren’t educated enough in this area.
I understand that.
I included in that theory this poster
Which was personal.
-this is Not a personal attack!
Yes it was.
Health
Member
you wrote:
“Nechomah –
Since you claim to be well educated, (which could be true, but I’m not so sure),”
mod-72 (Retired) to health: This is called a personal attack. When you question the intelligence or education level of another poster it is called a personal attack.
Disagreeing with you or arguing on your comments is not a personal attack. It may make you uncomfortable. It may irritate you. It may even cause you to wonder just how foolish a person may be because they disagree or argue with you. It may be all these things and more – but it is NOT a personal attack
____________
My comments have nothing to do with a grudge – I don’t hold grudges. 1) for it to qualify as a grudge it would be because you “beat” me at something and now I need to get even – this never happened,
2) each of my posts has to do with your current comments – the only history is the reminding everybody what you said about yourself being a student of health sciences – which I interpret as a person who can google, cut and paste because all you discuss is the straight “science” – you take out the human equation.
yenta -“health, why are you so secretive about your role in medicine?”
I wouldn’t be so secretive, but talking about it will give away who I am. Some people here use any personal info against you.
Suffice it to say that I’ve been trained in more than one area.
I wouldn’t even answer this question to anybody else, but I feel you are being honest about yourself.
Avram in MD -“I’d probably want to wait until the very last minute to go to the hospital, too.”
Somehow I don’t think most people have the same negative feelings about hospitals, medical personell, esp. those in the OB Dept., as you do. If your observations were correct -why is it only the Frum women whom wait till the last minute -everybody should?!
Also, your assumption about treatment for childbirth -if you really believe what you posted and all others that think like you -why use them? The last I heard was this was a free country -you don’t have to go to the hospital -you can deliver at home. And esp. nowadays they have birthing centers where you are only treated by midwives and not doctors, NP’s or PA’s!
Make sure to tell all your female family members when they have babies -to make sure not to use hospitals for delivery -only the other options!
“-this is Not a personal attack!
Yes it was.”
Avram -So acc. to your train of thought -I personally attacked every Frum woman who didn’t always make it on time to the hospital to deliver. So I guess they should all come here and bash me.
miritchka – Thanks.
🙂
mod-72 (Retired) to health: “This is called a personal attack. When you question the intelligence or education level of another poster it is called a personal attack.”
Read my post to AVRAM!
“because all you discuss is the straight “science” – you take out the human equation.”
That is your opinion. It’s funny how you can Judge me up about my empathy on the human equation from my posts without even knowing me personally. I guess you got a sixth sense from formerly being a Mod. Did you ever hear of the Jewish concept of being Dan L’caf Zecus? Esp. since you never saw me actually deal with a real patient?!!
“each of my posts has to do with your current comments – the only history is the reminding everybody what you said about yourself being a student of health sciences – which I interpret as a person who can google, cut and paste”
You’re doing a good job of constantly reminding e/o of this.
Read my post to Yenta and you’ll understand why I don’t post more about myself. You’re a classic example!
And the reason I like to “cut and paste” is because I can avoid -the “Who says? -Prove it.” comments that e/o posts. I did already by cutting & pasting.
I even got that comment here -when I said that EMS home delivery is a rare occasion by the Goyim!
health, ok cool. didn’t realize your job was unique.
Hi Health,
Somehow I don’t think most people have the same negative feelings about hospitals, medical personell, esp. those in the OB Dept., as you do.
I’ve never done a poll.
Also, your assumption about treatment for childbirth -if you really believe what you posted and all others that think like you -why use them? The last I heard was this was a free country -you don’t have to go to the hospital -you can deliver at home. And esp. nowadays they have birthing centers where you are only treated by midwives and not doctors
Excellent suggestions for normal, healthy pregnancies. 🙂
Avram -So acc. to your train of thought -I personally attacked every Frum woman who didn’t always make it on time to the hospital to deliver. So I guess they should all come here and bash me.
No, I’m not talking about that. I’m talking about what you said to Nechomah:
Sorry to say, I don’t feel that you are very educated.
That was a personal attack.
Health
You talk about being don l’kaf zchus others and are upset people are ‘bashing’ you.
Let me use your own words:
To real-brisker: “RB – Maybe you should change your name to Chochom from the Ma Nish Taneh? I actually was waiting for s/o to post what you wrote. I wonder how many people believe you?”…And the next thing some Chochom will write is that they all plan their births.”
To yentingyenta: “Well thank you. Did you ever see this or are you just quoting your nursing textbook?”
To nechomah: “Since you claim to be well educated, (which could be true, but I’m not so sure)”.. And again “Sorry to say, I don’t feel that you are very educated.”
Please tell us how this is 1. being dan l’kaf zechus others and 2. simply respecting others and disagreeing in a RESPECTFUL way, since it doesn’t seem that way to me (or to others, apparently).
There is a way to disagree that’s respectful, and a way to disagree that is insulting and sarcastic/degrading.
Everything you state as fact is nothing more than your opinion. It’s funny how you can judge other posters here and their knowledge base from their posts without even knowing them. I guess you have a sixth sense from being a being a CPR trainer and a student of health sciences (and a google cut and paste expert – note: I had to include that).
Did you ever hear of the Jewish concept of being Dan L’caf Z’cus? Esp. since you never saw any of the posters on the diabetes thread or this thread as real patients?!!
____
Avram +1
the.nurse +1
____________
btw health if you do not like my most recent post and you think that I am attacking you
here is your post:
“That is your opinion. It’s funny how you can Judge me up about my empathy on the human equation from my posts without even knowing me personally. I guess you got a sixth sense from formerly being a Mod. Did you ever hear of the Jewish concept of being Dan L’caf Zecus? Esp. since you never saw me actually deal with a real patient?!!”
and here is mine:
“Everything you state as fact is nothing more than your opinion. It’s funny how you can judge other posters here and their knowledge base from their posts without even knowing them. I guess you have a sixth sense from being a being a CPR trainer and a student of health sciences (and a google cut and paste expert – note: I had to include that).
Did you ever hear of the Jewish concept of being Dan L’caf Z’cus? Esp. since you never saw any of the posters on the diabetes thread or this thread as real patients?!!”
—-
The only difference is I removed the redundancies (google it for the definition*) and fixed some of the grammar.
* this comment didn’t have to be included and was probably inappropriate but once again I couldn’t resist.
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