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Is it ok for a women to be on a hatzalah team? You could run into many assurim..but at the same time could be saving peoples lives..?? plus many women dont feel comfortable with men helping then if there could be a women to do it??
Why do you ask? Is it that you want to join? Is it that you know of its existence and you feel that it is a problem. Or is it that you are trying to start these threads that will turn into big arguments [like the other threads you started].
or that youve read several articles about gedolim saying its not ok and you want to stir this up?
RB +1, his name should be CoreyDrayaKup
coreytothecup:
you really have started a lot of… um…interesting threads for a poster who has only been here one week….why?
🙂 Bump 🙂
Let’s hijack this thread and talk about why (s)he started it. It’s defiantly more interesting and less controversial.
onegoal, iBump, The Goq, Toi: +1
Good idea. Lets talk about how the OP has already started 11 threads and only responded to 1 other thread.
what’s the problem?
if there’s a medical emergency & a woman can be of assistance…she shouldn’t help out?
Cmon there’s nothing wrong with the thread! I think women can be on Hatzola but only called in if they are needed, for example there has been lots of cases of hatzola having to deliver babies, and having an experienced midwife or even labour supporter on the team, would be very beneficial!
coreytothecup – It’s just interesting that all the threads you started so happen to be controversial questions.
Joseph – “Good idea. Lets talk about how the OP has already started 11 threads and only responded to 1 other thread.”
I had the same haurah.
Going off the topic, Rav Shach was asked wherever students in Ponevetz should join Hatzola. The Hatzola people tried to persuade him to let the Yeshiva boys join, giving a story that recently happened in Bnei Barak, where a little boy fell off the wall, and if not for Hatzola he would have not made it to the hospital in time. Rav Shach answered that if Hatzola weren’t there, the child would have got to the hospital another way, e.g. by a passerby or the child himself, and there is no need to have a Ponevetz yeshiva boy (or perhaps yeshiva boys) in general joining Hatzola, as when you are Oisek in Torah you are Potur from Mitzvos that other people can do.
Those who say Rav Shach was a independent view need to read his statement that he was appointed as the Shomer of the generation by Rav Kotler (whom Rav Moshe Feinstein admitted was the man of Haskofa in that generation).
So perhaps relating to this Shailo, i think it is a good idea that women join Hatzola (who don’t have a Chiyuv in any full time working or learning commitments), they would alleviate the problem of male Hatzola member’s dealing with females, perhaps if their were more women Hatzola members, boys would not leave Yeshiva and work in Hatzola.
p.s. Rav Shach said a similar thing regard to Yeshiva boy who do Kiruv –he said for people in full time learning, Kiruv (to a significant extent) is Bitul Torah, as other people can do Kiruv.
Please, I beg, stop the bashing! I get sick in my stomach when I read these petty fights and false accusations. c’mon guys, for heaven’s sake! riboinoy shel oilam! What was the major lesson last week here in the CR??? Innocent until proven guilty!
coreytothecup asked a perfectly legitimate question with no implied threats. I know of at least 3 women personally that needed hatzoloh and felt extremely uncomfortable and embarrassed when men SHE KNEW showed up. There are emergency situations that sometimes require sensitivity and concern beyond the actual call, and women volenteers would solve that issue. The OP began a thread which is perfectly fair and invites a peaceful hashkofic discussion as any other thread posted here. Let the MODS decide which posters are shady, that’s THEIR job. All you guys do by accusing others is stumbling on oinoas devorim etc. Please let us maintain our composure and if you don’t like a thread – stay away from it. May peace reign once again here in the CR.
Thank you for the Mussar Shmooze BH point taken, I’m sorry Corey.
coreytothecup:
If you really are legit and mean these questions, then on behalf of myself and all the posters that accused you, we ( yes, im sure all of us really) are sorry.
I do fell the need to explain myself though.
In the past week or so we have had several posters come on just to make trouble and stir up machlokes( I scream u scream we all… and QTPie tr la la la la just to name a couple).
Therefore, i hope you understand that we are not trying to be mean, we are just trying to preserve a nice atmosphere here, and trying to nip a prospective problem in the bud. Again, I’m not saying that you are a problem, but i hope you understand why we are all a little jumpy and quick to accuse.
once again, if are a serious poster, i reiterate my (our) apology, and hope you didn’t take our comments to heart.
I hope you accept my (our)apology and stick around as real poster.
Thanks.
🙂 Bump 🙂
iBump +1
there is a halchic directive not to appoint a woman to a positon of authority of the tzibbur, that may have influenced the status quo. There is also a necessary degree of comraderie in the working environment that would make a mix of genders more problematic than helpful. It was rumored that one of the Manhattan orgs had a woman among them. In my former service, most women were not averse to being helped by seasoned, mature people, but this was not in Booklyn, and the question is not without its merits.
new square has a female team for female emergencies
ajk -“new square has a female team for female emergencies”
The fact is that the other Hatzolas -eg. NYC, Lakewood and others won’t consider taking them. This isn’t MY opinion -I haven’t really given it much thought because it’s not reality. So Frum women who are uncomfortable with Frum male providers have three choices -either call Hatzolah & get over their uncomfortableness or call 911 or start another Frum First Aid Squad with women providers. I see no reason to even discuss it right now because the Hatzolas that don’t have it, aren’t going to start.
There are many women with medical training – why not allow women to be first responders, to examine and stabilize a woman patient, and let the men take over for transport to the hospital?
i think in the past there were some neighborhoods which had ladies on hatzolah if im correct it was queens and washington heights
Health – Don’t forget even if they call 911 they have a 50% chance on getting a male emt.
farrock – Leave it up to the rabonim. They obviously feel for whatever reasons it is not something to be done.
There are many women with medical training – why not allow women to be first responders, to examine and stabilize a woman patient, and let the men take over for transport to the hospital?
Your premise is that women don’t know how to drive, and that is the problem?
we have gedolim for a reason. hatzola has been selflessly and perfectly providing for the community for years going solely on advice from their core group of rabbonim. no radio talk show host, council member, (or coffeeroom comment 🙂 ) will make a difference because this is not some political program trying to gain public approval.
its a frum chessed organization, and as such it answers only to the knowledgeable and experienced rabbonim who head it. and thats how it should be, imho.
2 things
first of all, haven’t we been there done that on this topic already?
second of all, i’ve met a few ppl in the med field including emt’s. emt’s who do it as a profession (ie 8 or 12 hour shifts) spend the time in a metal box with their partner. now i know hatzolah members don’t do that, the woman would be in VERY close proximity to the men if the men do the driving 1/2. just one example.
and third of all (yes i know i can’t add) if this was really a good and shayach idea wouldn’t the hatzolah boards in dif cities have already asked their rabbanim if this was appropriate etc? i feel like ppl are paskenin s/t rabbanim have already decided
ajk – “new square…”
all that shows is that the rabbonim they have behind them told them to make such a team available. i don’t know, but i would bet that the female team did not start with a few outspoken women going on radio shows and giving interviews with left wing newspapers and petitioning and suing the rabbinical board to allow them to form a team. yeah, i kinda doubt that…
Your premise is that women don’t know how to drive, and that is the problem?
– – no, my premise is the concern for women working with men in close quarters, and traveling together in the small ambulance back and forth to the hospital. At the same time, the patients are more sensitive to who examines them. In all seriousness, this may work. A call goes out, woman or girl patient, a woman with medical training goes to the scene (of course whichever EMT arrives first will begin the evaluation) and after the exam and the patient is loaded to the ambulance, the woman EMT can leave.
Also, if we are concerned that the ambulance crew may hesitate to take a call on Shabbos if they are not going to return home, shouldn’t we also be concerned that a woman may not want to call Hatzala if she will be treated and examined by men? This is a very real situation. I know at least one young mother, with a high-risk pregnancy, and travelling from the Rockaways to a Manhattan hospital, who said if she went into labor on YomTov she planned to call a car service rather than Hatzala.
One Reason on why Women are not permitted into Hatzolah is because although a female patient might feel uncomfortable when the emergency medical provider is a male.
however having a woman on the rescue team brings a lot of problems for the male members on the team. which includes problems like yichud. or problems of mingling.
this is something which the New Square Hatzolah must deal with and are having ‘problems’ with.
The rabonim and the coordinators know about this. and therefore will not permit Hatzolah to become a mixed organization.
farrock, i am very sorry to say that if this high risk pregnancy mom is putting her life and the life of her unborn child at risk going by car service to manhattan rather than calling hatzola she needs to seek some other kind of help as well.
to have someone with an at risk pregnancy in a car service that can get stuck in traffic and/or break down and have NO ONE with medical training to help her is a danger to both her and the child.if she is so obsessed with not having a male take care of her she should find someone near this manhattan hospital to put her up till she goes into labor…oh and hopefully the apt would be across the street from the hospital coz she stil might need assistance and g-d forbid a male 911 team comes to help.
absolutely ridiculous!
farrock – I see you know little to nothing about Hatzolah. Your assumption that the only medical help that is required is at thee scene, and the rest from there on foward is just “a ride in lights and sirens to the hospital” is totaly wrong. The patient is required full attention the ENTIRE time, not just that, they many times even bring medics along with them to the hospital (even if nothing is going on), just in case anything will happen during the transport. Your whole basis is totaly off scale.
real-brisker -“Health – Don’t forget even if they call 911 they have a 50% chance on getting a male emt.”
Male doesn’t seem to be the issue, but some Frum guy whom they are aquainted with -is. I think they just added on male provider as a secondary issue. While it’s true that some women don’t want to be treated by any male -most don’t care. The few that care realize that as much as they demand total female care in the hospital, which some hospitals will accommodate -it’s definitely not a guarantee that this will occur.
The reality is – this is a non-issue because anything more than simple childbirth cannot occur/be treated in the pre-hospital arena. So why does the Frum community have so many childbirth related calls? Simple -because they are uneducated. Freier & company would accomplish much more by setting up an org. that educates women about childbirth and other related women issues. Then Hatzolah would have as many deliveries as other EMS – next to none! Look I knew s/o many years ago who wanted to be an EMT like her husband who was on Hatzolah. So since she couldn’t join Hatzolah -she joined some volly org. together with her hubby. Therefore all the Halachic problems were avoided. If these women want to practice EMS -I’m sure they could join some squad. Childbirth calls are probably just a red herring. Either that or these women are just as uneducated and think everybody doesn’t make it on time to the hospital.
Health – Maybe the reason 911 delivers so many less babies, is because non jews probally have about a 10th less children then a frum couple has.
Health: I highly doubt it is because our community is uneducated on childbirth. Surely by the 10th or 11th time you are giving birth you must know something about the process.
Especially if your mother also gave birth 10 times.
RB – Maybe you should change your name to Chochom from the Ma Nish
Taneh? I actually was waiting for s/o to post what you wrote.
I wonder how many people believe you?
First of all, in the Goyishe non-white communities they also have a lot of kids. Second of all & the most important point, I’m not talking about percentages. Even if the percentage of Frum Jews being born is greater, no way are Frum Jews even close to any percent of the population. In other words, there are millions of them and not that many of us. So a lot more of them are being born each year. And how many of them are born pre-hospital? Not that many.
And the next thing some Chochom will write is that they all plan their births. Another myth -some do, but again from the total amount of childbirths -it’s a small percentage.
So RB, if you have kids -did your wife deliver at home?
PBA -Oh, they know something about it, but not when to go to the hospital and other medical aspects. And without education you don’t know that #10 CAN come quicker than #9, so you need to leave earlier than the last delivery.
Hi coreytothecup.
Good question and nothing wrong with wanting to know what people think about controversial issues or to come up with a question that you feel may get a reaction.
I am not so sure if the problem really is women drivers as it may be they are bad with directions.
But all seriousness aside, my thought is it would be the same as with women doctors with regards to how they can work and with whom they can have assist them, unless the gedolim say otherwise.
health,”Then Hatzolah would have as many deliveries as other EMS – next to none!”
just FYI, i know a frum EMT who works 911. ya right they get next to none. in a shift and a half, he was called to 9 (!) deliveries. yes i said 9. one set of twins IIRC. after the 9th his chief/head of ems in his area sent him and his partner home. he got off the rest of the week, his partner the end of the shift b/c it was only her third or something. (note, this was in BP).
and if you live in a frum area there is a chance a frum man will show up when you call 911. no givens.
and there is such a thing as precocious labor. not everyone has a few hour warning when to go to the hospital
Such rubbish that frum women are less educated about childbirth than non jewish ones.
They go to the same doctors, get the same support- any woman that is pregnant jolly well educates herself on her pregnancy and childbirth, if she wasnt educated before. I dont know how you can say that!
in the end though, it is up to the leaders of hatzoloh
(which is after all a private volunteer organization)
and their advisors (read: poskim).
As a woman who almost had a baby at home and had her instead in an ambulance, I will say that education about childbirth had little to do with my experience. I have plenty of lay experience with childbirth – I took a labor class and had 4 previous normal births without coming close to delivering at home as well as 1 born via a cesarean section.
My last baby decided that she had to be not only unpredictable, but in a hurry, unlike all of my other children. My labor began uneventfully and, like most women who don’t want to spend untold hours in the hospital waiting for the big event, I chose to labor at home as long as possible. I was fine until suddenly things changed and I had no way to get myself to the hospital without calling an ambulance. Actually surprisingly no Hatzola members came to my house, although I do know that 2 Rebbes in my sons’ cheder across the street are Hatzola members and came to assist at other non-childbirth related medical emergencies in my house. I had precious little time to get transportation to my house to get to the hospital and fortunately I called an ambulance because I made it less than 5 minutes away from my house before I delivered the baby almost without assistance, considering that the MDA staff who was there with me had not assisted in a birth before. Well, I guess HKBH really delivered that baby!
Health – Thanks for the subtitle idea. Please proove to me that there are more home deliveries amongst jews than by non-jews (percentage wise}.
RB – I tried to look up NY EMS statistics on this, but this detail about childbirth related calls aren’t on their webpage.
You’ll just have to take my word for it -what I’ve seen over the years. EMS has very little home deliveries.
yenta -“ya right they get next to none. in a shift and a half, he was called to 9 (!) deliveries. yes i said 9. one set of twins IIRC. after the 9th his chief/head of ems in his area sent him and his partner home. he got off the rest of the week, his partner the end of the shift b/c it was only her third or something. (note, this was in BP).”
You just proved my point -It was BP -they never get so many so they got OFF time. And it also proves Frier wrong -the women that don’t want to be treated by Frum Hatzolah men -will indeed call EMS! And don’t tell me all these calls were Goyim, because I won’t buy it.
“and if you live in a frum area there is a chance a frum man will show up when you call 911. no givens.”
And your point is? Calling Hatzolah -you have a zero chance of either a female or Goy (male) showing up.
“and there is such a thing as precocious labor. not everyone has a few hour warning when to go to the hospital”
Well thank you. Did you ever see this or are you just quoting your nursing textbook? Please tell us what the nursing book says about how common this is? From experience -it ain’t too common.
Hold on -wait a sec. -it’s very common by the Frum community.
The Frum Maidlach have different stats that e/o else. -NOT/FALSE!
They just aren’t educated enough.
Nechomah -“As a woman who almost had a baby at home and had her instead in an ambulance, I will say that education about childbirth had little to do with my experience. I have plenty of lay experience with childbirth – I took a labor class and had 4 previous normal births without coming close to delivering at home as well as 1 born via a cesarean section.”
Since you claim to be well educated, (which could be true, but I’m not so sure), please educate us when is the proper time to go to the hospital when you’re in labor! It could be you did everything right and still you couldn’t make it -so tell us when you are supposed to go!
Health
Member you wrote:
“Nechomah –
Since you claim to be well educated, (which could be true, but I’m not so sure), please educate us…”
you also wrote:
“RB – I tried to look up NY EMS statistics on this…
You’ll just have to take my word for it”
I guess you’ll just have to take her word for it that 1) she is educated and 2) this was her experience.
I have read enough of your posts to know that I cannot to take your word on anything in the health field – even if you are a “student of health sciences” and even if you teach people CPR.
Precocious labor-yes I read about it, no I have not seen it in my limited clinical experience. I don’t know the time frame for this.
Health – I don’t see any reason to belive it.
I spoke with a few Hatzala Medics.
they claim that it wont work.
A) there is no Halacha problem for a male to deliver a baby.
B) given the intensity and drama of the situation, there is no Hashkafa problem.
C) for the same reason, there are no uncomfortable feelings WHILE the delivery.
now, below are the reasons why it is wrong to have females in hatzala.
A) there will be minling (as is with New Square hatzala a halachic situtaion they have to deal with)
B) the medics and female assistants will be forced to work together in a team.
C) there is the issue of yichud (during the transport and on the way back).
D) as much as ladies will feel uncomfortable that a male member participated in the delivery, ladies will feel more uncomfortable with a female, especially if they are somewhat acquainted and will meet in the future.
yes, it is an embarrassing situation, as is with many other medical emergencies.
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