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extremely casual or strange hats
a cat-in-the-hat style hat, and a plaid jacket with a water squirting flower on the outside pocket
Methinks you are joking.
“now I see the bearded, black velvet yarmulka types young and old”
I am proud to be a “bearded, black velvet yarmulka type”. I almost never wear a suit or jacket except on Shabat or Yom Tov — and in the hot summer, not even then — and I don’t even own a black hat.
“how old is the Mesorah to wear the Beged Isha called a Fedora?”
Probably less than a century. Prior to then it was indeed Beged Ishah and in fact it was a symbol of decadent lifestyles. I frankly don’t understand how any frum Jew would have chosen to wear one had he known its history.
According to wikipedia, the fedora became a man’s beged in the 1920’s.
“Probably less than a century. Prior to then it was indeed Beged Ishah and in fact it was a symbol of decadent lifestyles.”
It has only been called a mesorah by GAW.
Your silly notion about begged isha has already been completely disproven before.
I think there al lot bigger questions about a lot that you do then someone wearing a fedora.
“Your silly notion about begged isha has already been completely disproven before”
According to Wikipedia, the fedora was the feminist hat until 1924.
According to Wikipedia she was a notorious cross dresser and that’s why she wore such a hat. Not because it was feminine.
That’s also why the feminists wore it, because it’s not feminine.
Further, it completely change after prince whomever of England starting wearing it. When men who wanted to look like men were the only ones wearing it.
So it was never really begged isha, and it totally changed from even being a shemetz of begged isha long before it became popular by yidden.
So it is disingenuous to call it begged isha besides being silly.
From wiki:
“After Prince Edward of Britain started wearing them in 1924, it became popular among men for its stylishness and its ability to protect the wearer’s head from the wind and weather.”
Apparently, it was not in style for men to wear a fedora before 1924, only for (some) women.
OCD, bigoted, yawn. Thank you, moderator, for keeping to a single standard by allowing these compliments to be posted. Aifah v’aifah.
Figured you could handle it, and it would give you a chance to reply. No harm intended by posting
There are two views presented here supporting the black fedora-black jacket-black pants dress. One is that this is a uniform that identifies the participant with a certain hashkafah, in this case the litvishe yeshiva way. As a uniform, it obligates only those who choose to belong to this team, no different than the uniform of the N.Y. Giants players. Anyone who chooses not to be a member of this team is not obligated to wear the uniform.
The second is that this mode of dress is preferred because one should dress in the most respectful way possible,as one would before a king or president. This specific yeshivish way of interpreting this required dress is highly debatable, and I totally disagree with it. Even so,I point out that the yeshiva boys do not comply with it, and anyone who thinks they do should take some lessons in etiquette, cleanliness and social norms. An eye examination would also help. Suffice it to say that no one dresses for mincha in the same clothing as for a date. The veldt clearly has voted with its actions and does not dress as if they were meeting the president.
So, if it’s just a uniform, and it is just that, lay off those who are not on your team. Let them daven with you without making a fuss. Dress the way you want, but don’t impose it on others. The others certainly don’t impose their dress on you.
Do you want to step it up for Shabbos? Wear cuff links. Put on an expensive tie. There are plenty of ways.
Do you have this standard for anyone else, to dress as for a date for a weekday davening?. Nobody actually wears (or probably ever did wear) Shabbos clothing for a regular weekday davening. There are still levels of respectability of weekday clothing; it’s not all or nothing, and just saying to add cufflinks for Shabbos is silly.
Nobody actually wears (or probably ever did wear) Shabbos clothing for a regular weekday davening. There are still levels of respectability of weekday clothing; it’s not all or nothing, and just saying to add cufflinks for Shabbos is silly.
For those of us who wear ties and jackets every day, wearing cufflinks shows that the Levush of Shabbos is different than that of a weekday. You would never disrespect someone who wears a Straimel B’Davka on Shabbos as a sign of “Levush Kavudah”, and I expect an retraction from you regarding cufflinks as a “Levush Kevudah” (vs. “silly”) for Shabbos and/or Yom Tov.
nishtdayngesheft – I only quoted “HaKohen53” who said it was a Mesorah. If you agree with me that it is not, take it up with him/her.
I don’t think cufflinks are silly, I think expecting people (and especially expecting davka yeshiva guys) to dress Shabbos’dik during the week with the brainstorm that adding cufflinks on Shabbos will take care of the special malbush for Shabbos issue is silly.
DY – fair enough. There is no need to dress “Shabbos’dik” during the week.
I see that we can finally put to rest the idea that one must “dress his best” for every davening. I agree. Therefore, the yeshivish way is only one of many ways to dress for davening, and the insistence on it is socially driven and nothing more. And yet, I have been the tenth man in a yeshivish mincha minyan (not in a yeshiva) more than once and watched them wait until another person dressed like them showed up before starting. But we have ten! Sorry, only nine.
I know it’s not personal, they don’t know me or know that I’m the MO old man yeshiva hater. It’s just that they were taught that people dressed like me don’t count for a minyan. For the record, I wear long pants,a buttoned down shirt, and shoes.
And yet, I have been the tenth man in a yeshivish mincha minyan (not in a yeshiva) more than once and watched them wait until another person dressed like them showed up before starting. But we have ten! Sorry, only nine.
i didn’t even know such things happen, honestly. Garbage like that would have sent me packing ages ago. not from religion, but i would NEVER, EVER raise children in a place where they could learn such behaviors. besides the gross lack of understanding the value of a yid, throw in embarrassing someone in public, hmmm…kinda like killing in the name of Gd, huh?
It really sickens me to think of that. And if you are a poster who is somehow justifying it in your head, let alone in your life, or trying to formulate some type of defense for this, you need to do some serious work on yourself.
Old man, I’m sorry you had to deal with that, but even if some people take it (way) overboard, it doesn’t change the fact that a jacket (and for many) a hat is a more respectable mode of attire than not wearing them.
I know of a Shul near my house that had a sign saying jackets and Hats were nessasary to daven there.
I know people who have blue collar jobs where wearing a jacket , hat and tie would not work and if they had to shower and change they would not be able to get to Minyan
Old man,
I saw that coming a couple years ago. It seems to based on a ruling of Rav Chaim Kanievsky. IMHO misapplied.
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DY,
Here you call it “(way) overboard”, but 2 years ago you had to think about it.
“If there were only nine others, he probably should remain to be the tenth “
zahavasad – Was that policy enforced?
There, I was referring to the individual’s own choice. Here, I am talking about the tzibbur not accepting him as a tenth. Those are two entirely different things.
Looking at the post I was responding to, I might have misunderstood you, but I would never say a man shouldn’t be counted for a minyan because he’s sans hat and jacket.
I think there was outcry over the sign and it was removed.
DY,
I understood that chiluk then and now, but my point then (which I still feel) is that others don’t. OR that others feel that they should, as a tsibur, force the yachid to do the right thing.
I think you can see how such rulings can be misapplied.
BTW, I used to wear a hat always, but don’t much anymore. It started hurting (maybe I’m getting older). I usually wear a tie, and almost always a jacket unless I didn’t have the chance to get a jacket.
MDG, if you understood that chilluk, why did you imply that I changed my opinion?
including that anyone wearing a ring
What is the issur in wearing a ring?
It’s not begged isha — there are men’s rings.
It’s not because of questions regarding the validity of double-ring ceremonies — it’s entirely possible they got the ring after the marriage.
It’s not because it’s disrespectful or inappropriate for davening (most people would wear a ring to see a king, president, etc.)
So, what could possibly be the reason?
The Wolf (who, for the record, does not wear rings — not for any theological reason but just because he doesn’t appreciate men’s jewelery.)
Hard to imagine a shul would try to keep out anyone who wants to daven
What about a child molester who wants to daven? What about someone who is known for being a get-refuser or for abusing his wife, who now wants to daven?
DY,
I understand the difference, but I was not sure if you were making that difference back then when you wrote, “If there were only nine others, he probably should remain to be the tenth “
DY,
I would like to apologize for my thoughtless question above. You are far more learned than me, both in depth and in breadth. If I can see a difference, then you can easily.
Shabbat Shalom
old man,
I see that we can finally put to rest the idea that one must “dress his best” for every davening.
I’m not sure that anyone here was arguing for dressing one’s “best” for weekday davening. I think there is a difference between dressing one’s best and simply dressing up.
Therefore, the yeshivish way is only one of many ways to dress for davening, and the insistence on it is socially driven and nothing more.
Regarding specifically black hats and black jackets, I agree with you completely. Some do hold, however, that a jacket and hat are required for davening (and others do not). As gavra_at_work has been pointing out, even this requirement does not stipulate a specific hat and jacket, so what constitutes a respectable hat and jacket again goes to the culture of the community, but this is a somewhat different concept from the cultural “uniform” described above.
And yet, I have been the tenth man in a yeshivish mincha minyan (not in a yeshiva) more than once and watched them wait until another person dressed like them showed up before starting. But we have ten! Sorry, only nine.
This sounds like a horrible experience. I am sorry.
For the record, I wear long pants,a buttoned down shirt, and shoes.
And a kippa or some other type of head covering too, I presume?
MDG, apology accepted, and thanks.
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