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No lawyer would appear before a Judge in Court to represent his client without a jacket.
Is Hashem less than a goyishe judge?
A lawyer is an officer of the court. A respondent, however, is not and you may find cases where respondents DO appear before judges without jackets.
But let’s carry it a bit further. No lawyer would appear without a tie either. Yet I see no one saying that one must wear a tie to davening.
Is Hashem less than a goyishe judge?
The Wolf
I think you are missing the point. A jacket is an entire appearance, whereas a tie is a minor thing-it doesn’t add/detract from looking respectable as much as a jacket.
Outside of flatbush, BP and the such a jacket is never an entire appearance. When someone dresses down they will wear a blazer without a tie but that is dress down mode. Are you saying we should dress sown fro davening?
I think you are missing the point. A jacket is an entire appearance, whereas a tie is a minor thing-it doesn’t add/detract from looking respectable as much as a jacket.
I think you’re wrong. I think a tie adds a lot to the image. On Shabbos, I am makpid to always wear a suit WITH TIE. If I go to a chassunah, I always wear a tie as well.
The Wolf
Rav Henoch held ties and jackets are Kavod for Davening.
Lav Davka fedoras.
“But let’s carry it a bit further. No lawyer would appear without a tie either. Yet I see no one saying that one must wear a tie to davening.”
im just trying to say that you can’t compare a jacket to a tie. s/o that wears a jacket looks more put together than just w/ a shirt and tie-I believe.
In E”Y, I almost never saw men wearing ties on shabbos.
Its too late to edit my post so ill just add on to be clear- A tie definitley adds to an image but you can’t compare it the same way as what a jacket does-being as its much larger and is definitely more stark and noticable. Thats all.
im just trying to say that you can’t compare a jacket to a tie. s/o that wears a jacket looks more put together than just w/ a shirt and tie-I believe.
I disagree. To me, a jacket without a tie says “lazy.” A shirt with a tie says “smart*.”
The Wolf
(* As in “smartly dressed — not smart as in intelligent.)
In E”Y, I almost never saw men wearing ties on shabbos.
Different cultures… different modes of dress – a theme that others have commented on in this thread.
The Wolf
Wolf -i disagree, but putting that aside if you say a shirt with a tie says “smart”, why bother wearing a jacket at all on shabbos? Shouldn’t a tie be good enough?
Wolf – What looks smart to you isn’t really of any great importance. No offence, but it somewhat comes across that you are more concerned with your own feelings rather than what the Poskim say. I know that isn’t true, but that’s certainly the image such arguments project.
“A jacket is an entire appearance, whereas a tie is a minor thing-it doesn’t add/detract from looking respectable as much as a jacket.”
Lets see how this flies on a date. Ever see a bachur show up on a 1st date with no tie? Why should davening be different?
If you tell me Poskim are saying something based on what’s customary, then they need to be updated on the customs currently being observed. If a shirt and tie is more “smart” and the custom, maybe there should be a change. I think that’s basically what Wolfish is saying
Wolf -i disagree, but putting that aside if you say a shirt with a tie says “smart”, why bother wearing a jacket at all on shabbos? Shouldn’t a tie be good enough?
For some, perhaps. For me, no. I think a suit and tie looks even better. Dressing “smartly” is not necessarily the highest level one can achieve.
The Wolf
Wolf – What looks smart to you isn’t really of any great importance. No offence, but it somewhat comes across that you are more concerned with your own feelings rather than what the Poskim say.
Poskim make fashion statements? News to me.
Seriously, however, I fail to see what your point is? Where have I said anything that is against what “the Poskim” say?
The Wolf
Try to focus on connecting rather than looking around during davening. Connection is your primary concern during davening…
apushtayid-I did not say that a tie is not respectable-I said you just can’t compare it with a jacket-because its larger so it makes a greater statement. But definitely a tie does give a respectable appearance-just not as much as a jacket.
Oomis –
You haven’t been around too many places in Eretz Yisroel.
“Considering that I have yet to see a rav kick someone out of a shul for lack of a hat/jacket, and considering the fact that I don’t know of anyone who has seen it, I would say that it’s not, in fact, common practice.”
I know of a shul where the Rav will ask you to leave if you are not wearing a jacket. It is minhag hamakom, in that shul the Rav wants to keep a certain respect for davening so he asks that anyone who comes to daven there wears a jacket. (He does not require a hat.) This is in a frum neighborhood with many other shuls so if you are “stuck” without a jacket you have other options for davening with a minyan.
“If the Yeshiva has a rule to wear a hat & jacket, one who does not wear it breaks the rule and has to face the consequences.”
There are some yeshivas where the rebbeim will ask a talmid to leave (or go to the Ezras Nashim) if he is not wearing a hat. Again, minhag hamakom. If you are in a Bais Medrash where everyone wears hats and jackets and you are not then perhaps it is better to daven biyichidus the to go against the rules. These are obviously b’nei Torah who always wear hats and jackets for davening so the few times that they do not have them it is better to daven biyichidus. I assume that this is what R’ Chaim was referring to.
“No lawyer would appear before a Judge in Court to represent his client without a jacket.”
Lawyers all wear jackets but they do not wear hats. Hats are no longer in style as a respectable way of dress. I once heard it explained that the yarmalkas we wear today are not respectable either. Would you go to a king with a shmata on your head? Therefore, since as Jews, we cover ours heads, it is better to cover it with a hat then with a yarmalka since it looks more respectable. On the other hand, nowadays, yarmalkas seem to be a normal style of dress and Jews nowadays who do not wear hats would have no problem going in front of a king with just a yarmalka.
“Wolf – What looks smart to you isn’t really of any great importance. No offence, but it somewhat comes across that you are more concerned with your own feelings rather than what the Poskim say.”
When it comes to respectable dress, perhaps it is more what people in that area consider respectable then what outside poskim feel. R’ Chaim wasn’t necessarily referring to MO communities when he gave his answer.
What would R’ Chaim say to the following situation? If a yeshivish guy is davening in a MO shul where everyone is dressed smartly with ties and jackets, but the yeshivish guy looks like a shlump with his shirt untucked, jacket over his shoulders and a dirty, smashed hat thrown lopsided on his head. Perhaps the yeshivish guy should leave and daven biyichidus rather than break the decorum of the davening. Perhaps he should miss the beginning of davening while he tucks himself in and makes himself presentable. I would even suggest that he ditch the shlumpy hat and daven without it!
In my world, you can take your suit jacket off in a meeting and roll up your sleeves, and it means, “I’m serious and ready to get to work.”
If you take off your tie, however, it means, “I’m finished and I’m going home.”
It’s not code or symbolism, it’s just how people dress in the business world on the East Coast. And even among suits, there are differences – in the South, men wear cotton and linen suits, as well as seersucker patterns. Wear a seersucker suit in NYC and you’ll be snickered out of the boardroom.
So would a Southerner be wrong to wear a seersucker on Shabbos because it does not meet the accepted codes of formality in NY?
Oh – and in my makom, if you wear a sports-coat, you’re dressing down – acceptable for dinner, not so much for a meeting.
“Oomis –
You haven’t been around too many places in Eretz Yisroel. “
Not since 1971, sad to say. But when I was there for six months, I was in Beer Sheva, Natanya, Yerushalayim (of course), Bnei Brak, Ramat Gan,Chaifa, Kfar Ata, K’far Vitkin, Petach Tikvah, and Tifrach for Shabbosim, and almost never saw a tie on any frum man. My uncle wore one, but he was a shul rabbi in NY before he made aliyah, and he was used to wearing it.
I guess times have changed, Fabie.
No, it’s not because people have different hashkafos. If you want to wear a hat/jacket all the time, that’s fine… God bless and all the more power to you. I have a son that does that. It’s when people feel the need to compel everyone else to conform to their interpretation of halacha that I begin feeling despair.
The Wolf
Wolf- I’m only replying by what you yourself said, that threads like this makes you “almost not want to daven”. That’s an odd thing to say when one is strong in his own convictions,and feels he is doing exactly as G-d expects of him. ( When one is convinced he is doing as he should, it doesn’t leave much room for despair due to different interpretations of halacha )
Like I said, I’m intrigued by your statement.
Let us go back in time.
3 or 4 generations ago when a man wore a hat and jacket in the street he was sending one message, “I am a diligent bread earner, not a bum.”
And if R’L he was unemployed, as during the depression (lo aleinu), he was saying, “This is not the state I want to be in and I am making every effort to rectify the situation.”
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