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Apy, why still cant you accept the fact that HaRav Kanievsky has said better to daven beyichidus with a hat and jacket than in a minyan without? It has been cited here already verbatim from which Sefer including page number. Check it out rather than c’v cast aspersions.
oomis:
Rav Chaim Kanievsky is not a posek- he doesn’t give psak halacha. He is just saying what a person should do. Not everything that we do is directly related to halacha- but everything we do is directly related to the words of our gedolim.
Rav Chaim is just quoting the Mishna Brura, nothing new.
If you walk outside with a hat and jacket normally, you MUST wear it during davening.
R’ Kanievsky probably has this kabalah from the Steipler or the Chazon Ish (I don’t remeber which one). The same question was asked to them and they gave the same answer BUT it was also noted that they said that this halacha pertains to someone who ALWAYS wears a hat and a jacket by davening. In such a case it is better to daven beyichidus. For one who does not always wear a hat and a jacket by davening it is better to daven with a minyan without a hat and jacket than to daven beyichidus with a hat and jacket
When the mishna talks about ha’umanim davening b’rosh ha’ilan or having to come down for shmoneh esreh, do you honestly think they brought their “hat & jacket” to the orchard so they should be able to daven with them?
even if it was written that R’ Kanievsky said that it was probably a misquote b/c that is k’neged h’seichel. davening w/ a minyan is potentialy safek d’oraysa (depending how you learn the g’zeiras shava) while a hat and jacket is a minhag at best.
Why dont you call Rav Kanikevsky shlita himself, rather than cast aspersions on his holy words or attempt to add conditions to his statement he never added.
Helpful: I do not have to believe that someone is quoting R’ Chaim correctly, not do I have to accept that someone quoted someone quoting R’ Chaim correctly. Someone already wrote this, but quite frankly the quote attributed to R’ Chaim, on face value, is knegged haseichel and makes no sense.
People say a lot of things in the name of the Chazon Ish and Steipler Z’l, and it doesnt make it true. I know someone who wrote a letter to R’ Chaim Kanievsky Shlita, asking about a specific inyan which was said over in the name of his father and asking for guidance and clarification for his particular situation. R’ Chaims response, “Lo Hadam”. I saw the original question, and response. If you have a shayla, ask a Rav, dont rely on what “they say”. As Rav moshe Tuvia Lieff shlita is wont to say tongue in cheek, “R’ Yennem, is the best hashgacha,…. yennem koift, yennem ess”. Not everything you read or hear is true. If you want to call it “casting aspersion”, so be it.
Apy, you were provided the maare makom for HaRav Kanievsky. Additionally, this statement of Rav Kanievsky is widely quoted and very well known. CALL Rav Kanievsky yourself.
“There is some kind of respect when wearing a jacket and hat. It should be worn when talking to Hashem. “
My son is extremely respectful, and most especially so when he davens (he is very machshiv tefila, it is well-known about him). He does not wear a hat. If you truly believe that the hat and jacket are what Hashem wants then perhaps we should just send our hats and jackets to Shul. And please show me a picture depicting the Black hat and suit jacket that our Avos wore when talking to Hashem. We are not on their madreiga, but the idea should be the same for all of us. For someone who always dresses that way, yes it would be a boosha not to do so in Shul. But to state that unilaterally, is wrong.
Helpful. “Well known” means nothing to me.
People make outrageous statements in the name of gedolim all the time. Like, I have written previously, the statement, as it is presented here on YWN is illogical. I dont own the sefer, and trying to find it is not high on my list of priorities right now, and even if I saw the sefer, anyone with an agenda can write anything they want.
I WILL write him my question, and hopefully in the next week or two I will have an answer.
Whatever the answer may be, it doesnt change the fact that I have a Rav, and he has NOT once sent me home from shul for my hat and jacket, OR told me go home and daven with your hat and jacket instead of here in shul without it.
The ostrich sticks his head into the sand.
Helpful,
WADR to R. Chaim, he is not the be-all and end-all in halacha. He is certainly entitled to his opinion and, if you want to follow him, you have a solid basis on which to do so — but that does not mean that his word is the end of the matter.
Yesterday, I lained in shul, twice, without hat or jacket. My rav, no slouch he, said not one word about it, nor has he said a word to me about it any other time that I lained without hat and/or jacket. If it was so clear-cut that it’s assur, then he would have certainly said something.
The Wolf
Not everything in life is ”clear-cut”. That is no excuse.
Wolf,
Everything is clear cut nowadays. I’m right you’re wrong. Doesn’t matter what the issue is. There is only one way of avodas hashem and that is my way. Didn’t you learn that in yeshiva? ;o)
Wolf – While I normally don’t weigh in on these issues, you seem to be looking at things the wrong way round. Your Rav would probably not say something if you davened in a jacket/hat either. So why not follow both your Rav and Rav Kanikevsky shlita and wear a jacket/hat?
I guess the point I’m trying to get across is, that those who don’t wear Jacket/Hat when davening seem to do so for personal reasons (ie, they don’t like it or feel it would be “ok”). When one side of the argument can quote Poskim and the other can’t, I don’t see why there should even be an argument at all to be honest.
There is only one way of avodas hashem and that is my way. Didn’t you learn that in yeshiva? ;o)
Actually, I did.
But then again, I ended up rejecting my yeshiva’s model of Yiddishkeit in favor of a more reasonable one.
The Wolf
Akiva,
Is it your position then that one should always be machmir in every instance in life in order to make sure that “all the bases are covered?”
The Wolf
Wolf,
While it’s true, you could make an argument for covering the bases (similar to Pascal’s Wager, you have everything to gain and nothing to lose), however that’s not really the way I look at it.
The point I was trying to make (though did not do very well!) is that I myself may feel it to be acceptable to daven without a jacket or hat, but if Rav Kanikevsky shlita is of the opposite opinion (and I have no statements from Poskim to the contrary), then surely I must be doing something wrong.
Wolf:
This is actually an interesting machlokes between “Litvaks” and “Chassidim” regarding putting on Rabbainu Tam Tefillin.
Chassidim hold one should put on Rabbainu Tam to be Yotze his shita. The Shulcha Aruch agrees that a “chassid” should wear both pairs.
The Mishna Berura says it is Gaiva for someone who is not a Chassid to put on Rabbainu Tam Tefilin. (34:3)
However, no one seems to be Machmir for the Shita that Tefilin can not have sirtut, as is the Shita of Rav Simcha and the Mahari Abuhav in the Tur/Bach.
Oh well.
Akiva: See my explanation for his shita above. It is not R’ Chaim, it is the Mishna Berura.
Akiva,
The problem is that Rav Kanievsky’s position is contrary to what the common practice seems to be. It’s one thing to say “cover the bases” when it costs nothing extra or when it’s possible to do all options. However, here, you can be faced with a dilema:
It’s near Mincha time and you don’t have a hat/jacket. There is no time to get your hat/jacket and still make the minyan. So, what do you do? Do you daven alone or do you make the minyan?
R. Chaim’s position (as reported) is to daven alone later with your hat/jacket. Most of the world seems to take the opposite approach. The two, however, are mutually exclusive, which does not fit into Pascal’s Wager.
The Wolf
(Of course, Pascal’s Wager has a HUGE flaw in the logic, but that’s another argument for another time.)
I usually wear a hat to daven in shul but never a jacket.
Helpful: I’m not familiar with the ostriches in your neck of the woods. The ostriches where I live, have a Rav, who never once in the 10 years that I know him, has ever sent anyone home from shul for lack of a hat or jacket.
“Chassidim hold one should put on Rabbainu Tam to be Yotze his shita. The Shulcha Aruch agrees that a “chassid” should wear both pairs.”
“The Mishna Berura says it is Gaiva for someone who is not a Chassid to put on Rabbainu Tam Tefilin. (34:3)”
I think some people misunderstood the term “chassid” as used by the Mechaber and Mishna Berura 🙂
The Wolf:
1) There is no ”problem” with Rav Chaim’s position.
2) Rav Chaim’s position is in concurrence with ”common practice.”.
3) Rav Chaim is in fact following an open Mishna Berura.
4) ”Most of the world” takes this approach.
5) In fact, not one poster on this thread thus far has cited a specific identified opposing Rov, and certainly not anyone near the stature of Rav Chaim.
6) Even if someone of such stature is found, the disagreement at most will be whether minyan or hat/jacket takes precedance. There will be no disagreement with Rav Chaim by anyone of stature over the critical nature of a hat/jacket where possible.
The above may not suit well your American ears, but the Emes is the Emes.
Wolf –
Laining without a hat and jacket maybe muttar, but it’s like golfing without a golf club, or bowling without a bowling ball.
Helpful,
I had a response, but the Mods apparently didn’t like it.
The Wolf
Laining without a hat and jacket maybe muttar, but it’s like golfing without a golf club, or bowling without a bowling ball.
No it’s not. That’s a silly comparison.
You cannot bowl with a bowling ball. You cannot play golf without a club.
You can, however, lain without a hat and/or jacket.
The Wolf
“The Shulchan Aruch agrees that a “chassid” should wear both pairs.”
Doesn’t the word chassid used in the Sh”A refer to people who are mekayeim the mitzvos with a measure of chassidus, meaning EXTRA-devotion and are machmirim (as opposed to the way in which we use the term “chassidus” today to refer to people who follow a rebbie such as Bobov, Lubavitch, Satmar, etc.? If so, then it has nothing to do with the latter at all.
Doesn’t the word chassid used in the Sh”A refer to people who are mekayeim the mitzvos with a measure of chassidus, meaning EXTRA-devotion and are machmirim (as opposed to the way in which we use the term “chassidus” today to refer to people who follow a rebbie such as Bobov, Lubavitch, Satmar, etc.? If so, then it has nothing to do with the latter at all.
Considering the fact that the S”A was written in the late 1500s and the Ba’al Shem Tov lived in the 1700s… 🙂
The Wolf
OK, let’s try it again…
1) There is no ”problem” with Rav Chaim’s position.
We were evaluating R. Chaim’s position in relation to Pascal’s Wager. In Pascal’s Wager there is little downside to taking the stricter path — and you aren’t faced with an either/or decision. R. Chaim’s position, OTOH, does lead to an either/or position — if a person finds that they will miss the only available minyan because they don’t have a hat/jacket what should they do? R. Chaim maintains that you should daven alone. But perhaps t’fillah b’tzibur takes precedence, as it seems to be for most people.
2) Rav Chaim’s position is in concurrence with ”common practice.”.
Considering that I have yet to see a rav kick someone out of a shul for lack of a hat/jacket, and considering the fact that I don’t know of anyone who has seen it, I would say that it’s not, in fact, common practice.
3) Rav Chaim is in fact following an open Mishna Berura.
Yes, but there are two factors to consider here:
1. The MB is not always the final word in halacha.
2. The MB is predicated (IIRC) on the fact that we generally wear hats/jackets in the street. Since that’s not always the norm, the premise of the MB may not apply here — and hence the final halacha as well.
4) ”Most of the world” takes this approach.
Obviously not. If you think that people are kicked out of shuls in the majority of the world for not having hats/jackets, then you should look up the meanings of “most of” or “the world” in the dictionary.
5) In fact, not one poster on this thread thus far has cited a specific identified opposing Rov, and certainly not anyone near the stature of Rav Chaim.
That may or may not be true, but WADR to R. Chaim, he is not the final word in halacha either. Furthermore, it seems fairly clear that, your assertion to the contrary, most of the world does not hold like him in this instance.
6) Even if someone of such stature is found, the disagreement at most will be whether minyan or hat/jacket takes precedance. There will be no disagreement with Rav Chaim by anyone of stature over the critical nature of a hat/jacket where possible.
But considering the fact that we’re evaluating R. Chaim’s position vis-a-vis a Pascal’s Wager approach, then we’re not discussing a “where possible” question. We’re discussion an either/or question.
The above may not suit well your American ears, but the Emes is the Emes.
Oh, my “American Ears” may be getting a bit deaf with the years, but I have no problem hearing the truth. It’s discerning what, exactly, is the truth, that’s the problem.
The Wolf
Wolf, name ONE SPECIFIC ROV anywhere even debatably near Rav Chaim’s stature who disagrees with the important nature of a hat/jacket (putting aside the precedence question.)
“Considering the fact that the S”A was written in the late 1500s and the Ba’al Shem Tov lived in the 1700s… :)”
I was actually planning on including that little nugget, but to be honest I was not 100% sure of both dates, though I suspected R”YC preceded The B”Shem”T by a couple of centuries. It seems we are on the same page.
Wolf –
Had a hard day. Was just trying to lighten the mood.
Wolf, name ONE SPECIFIC ROV anywhere even debatably near Rav Chaim’s stature who disagrees with the important nature of a hat/jacket (putting aside the precedence question.)
Ah, but what you want to “put aside” is just the case we’re discussing. We’re discussing a case where a person has a choice — daven alone or with a minyan without a hat/jacket. R. Chaim is entitled to pasken one way, but, WADR, that does not mean that his p’sak is halacha l’ma’aseh for everyone.
If you want to argue about whether it’s better (in general) to wear a hat/jacket or not to, that’s a separate argument.
The Wolf
” I tell you, sometimes threads like this make me just want to not daven at all. 🙁 “
I have to say this intrigues me that people say things such as that. Wolf…by saying this ,you imply that G-d comes in second to “the others”. If you are distancing yourself from your Creator and feel like “not davening at all” because there are other Yidden who have Hashkafos that differ from yours, its not really what “they” are saying, but your own connection that feels lacking.
Every Yid has a connection to G-d, at the end of the day, what others are saying is not that important as that you feel that YOU feel are doing what G-d requires of you.
“If you want to argue about whether it’s better (in general) to wear a hat/jacket or not to, that’s a separate argument.”
Okay, lets discuss that point. There is nothing to argue about. No one of Rav Chaim Kanievsky’s stature disagrees. Try naming one who you think is even close to his stature that disagrees.
Minhag HaMakom plays huge role here.
You can have one shul with a full supply of spare jackets in every size and a reliable air conditioning system.
Set the thermostat low enough and behold everyone has a jacket on.
And you can have a shul where only real Klei Kodesh wear jackets.
If you are distancing yourself from your Creator and feel like “not davening at all” because there are other Yidden who have Hashkafos that differ from yours, its not really what “they” are saying, but your own connection that feels lacking.
No, it’s not because people have different hashkafos. If you want to wear a hat/jacket all the time, that’s fine… God bless and all the more power to you. I have a son that does that. It’s when people feel the need to compel everyone else to conform to their interpretation of halacha that I begin feeling despair.
The Wolf
Okay, lets discuss that point.
Does that mean you’re conceding the other point? 🙂
The Wolf
My Rosh Yeshivah used to make any members of the yeshivah who didn’t have their hat and jacket for whatever reason- daven in the ezras nashim.
We can easily reconcile what Rav Chaim said with common practice among many rabbanim.
The rabbanim of a shul have to weigh that:
1. If they send this person home- he may not daven at all.
2. If the person doesn’t wear a hat and jacket in general it may distance him even further from yiddishkeit by demanding something of him that he doesn’t want to relate to.
3. If the person is not a mekabel then it will just cause an argument with no real gains.
Also, if the rav doesn’t stop every single time someone starts talking in the back of the shul this would follow along the same lines, ie. he just doesn’t stop people from doing the wrong thing all the time.
Also, would the rav of that shul kick out someone who came to shul without tzitzis on? This is also no different- the rav is happy that a person at least comes to shul.
“The problem is that Rav Kanievsky’s position is contrary to what the common practice seems to be.”
I doubt it’s really all that common, a frum Yid should rarely find himself in a situation when it’s nearing time to daven without his hat/jacket. Even if it is a common situation (and I can’t say I’ve seen that it is), then it’s still not an IDEAL situation.
“It’s near Mincha time and you don’t have a hat/jacket. There is no time to get your hat/jacket and still make the minyan. So, what do you do? Do you daven alone or do you make the minyan?”
Why are you out without your hat/jacket? If you don’t wear them all day long, then did you forget you would have to daven mincha? Ok so, it sounds like a one-off situation, in which case you could accept not making the minyan which would have the added advantage of ensuring you are in hat/jacket the next day.
The problem seems to be that most who aren’t in Jacket/Hat haven’t simply “forgotten” them, they daven without and “feel” it to be acceptable. It’s not something to police, certainly, but if it was myself I would have serious misgivings over casting aside the words of the MB and R’ Kanievsky with nothing to back up my “rogue” stance.
“My Rosh Yeshivah used to make any members of the yeshivah who didn’t have their hat and jacket for whatever reason- daven in the ezras nashim.”
A TELZER?
I agree with that rule. If the Yeshiva has a rule to wear a hat & jacket, one who does not wear it breaks the rule and has to face the consequences.
“The problem is that Rav Kanievsky’s position is contrary to what the common practice seems to be.”
Not in Benei Brak!
P.S. Maran Harav Yosef does not wear a black hat.
Akiva: Extremely well said and presented.
Thank You.
I am with Wolf on this one. I have never seen any Rebbi or Rav kick someone out of davening, whether it be in a Yeshiva or a shul, if they weren’t wearing a hat and/or jacket.
Also, in my personal experience, whenever I daven Mincha in midtown Manhattan, were you have professionals of all makes and models, wearing suits of upwards of thousands of dollars, who meet distinguished individuals (secular and religious) on a daily basis, they never wear a hat. They were suits because that is their daily dress, but hats are officially out of style (even for showing respect).
I know that this is not a Rav and I am not going against R’ Chaim in the slightest, in a book I read entitled “A Gentelman Gets Dressed Up” written by Bryan Curtis (which I have found changed my everyday dress habits for the better) it states that in nowadays wearing a hat is actually taboo indoors (except if one is attending a jewish ceremony were one is expected to wear a Yarmulke).
I am just mentioning that society has changed from wearing a hat as being respectful to it being considered out of date and would not be used to greet anyone, especially Royalty and High government officials (and, as one stated, judge).
No lawyer would appear before a Judge in Court to represent his client without a jacket.
Is Hashem less than a goyishe judge?
chiming in with j&working22 and the Wolf – I have been working in “white collar” suit-and-tie environments for 17 years, in various cities on the East Coast and traveling throughout the U.S., regularly interacting with board-level execs of publicly traded corporations and other professional staff – and I have NEVER seen one of them wear a fedora (the common “black hat”) of any color or style –
Hats in the U.S. went out of style when JFK was innagurated – he did not wear one to his innaguration, and American men took their cue from their young president and rejected hats from daily dress wear – it is simply no longer an accessory that denotes formality or dress – outside of “our” community, it is anachronistic and arguably may attract more attenion for its unusual character than any sense that a man is better dressed when wearing it – so, I would argue against the notion that we wear hats when davening because well-dressed men would wear a hat to meet the president/royalty/national leadership –
What I do see, however, is men wearing pressed suits, crisp shirts, and clean ties – so, I would argue that if a man wants to dress the way he would when going to meet royalty or the president, a necktie would be more consistent with general practice than a hat
This comes from the Sefer, Halacha Berurah from R’ Dovid Yosef.
Q: Is it permissible to pray the Amida while wearing shorts?
A: Only in areas where it is customary to wear shorts in the presence of prominent and distinguished people, such as in agricultural communities; even in such cases, however, one should not serve as Chazan while wearing shorts (Halacha Berura).
I cant put words in his mouth, but I am sure the Rav would agree that if it is not customary to wear a hat and jacket in the presence of prominent and distinguished people then one does not have to wear them by tefilla either.
Where R’ Chaim Kanievsky lives, it is customary to practically live in ones entire life in a hat and jacket while this is not the case in MANY places around the world. R’ Chaims psak is certainly appropriate for Bnei Brak, you can not foist it on the rest of the world and then say “what casting aside the words R’ Chaim Kanievsky?!!” In fact, I would bet that R’ Chaim himself did not intend for his psak to apply to the entire world.
Where I live, and daven, it is customary to greet distinguished people wearing a suit, yet I dont see anyone wearing a suit to davening, well, except the Rabbeim and a few kollel fellows who always wear ties.
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