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If the reason to wear a hat/jacket (during davening) is to show a certain amount of respect and decorum during davening, why is this important element ignored until bar mitzvah age? Wouldn’t it be more appropriate to start this chinuch from the time they start davening?
Many Yidden do start giving a hat to children under Bar Mitzvah. In any event, Yekke’s and Sefardim start wearing taleisim at Bar Mitzvah. And in all cases they start wearing tefilin then (or very shortly beforehand.) So surely Bar Mitzvah is an appropriate age to start.
on the same note why is tallis whuch is a mitzva only done after marriage by most people. shouldnt we start when the kid is bar mitzva. my uncle looked into it and decided that there was no good reason not to and when his son turned bar mitzva he gave him a tallis.
Yeshivaguy1 – what your uncle did is not right. There are those whose minhag it is to do this, however this is a minority group amongst Klal Yisroel, and I do not think it is fitting for a member of the majority group to adopt minhagim of a minority (to which he, I assume, does not belong).
The Maharil mentions this minhag of not wearing a talis until marriage and says that those hold of it are basing it on the s’michas hapisukim of “Gedilim ta’aseh loch” and “Ki yikach ish isha”.
This minhag became widely accepted except (as mentioned above) by Sephardim and Yidden from Germany (better term than “yekkes”)….
In some circles the Black Hat competes with the Tefilin as the icon of the Bar Mitzvah. Moving the starting of the wearing of the Black Hat to either several years before or several years after the Bar Mitzvah would insure that Tefilin remain the focus of the Bar Mitzvah.
just a correction to Ben Torah:
many, actually i think most bnei askenaz (the term rav mordche shwab used for yekkes) start talleisim way before bar mitzvah some start at age three. also it used to be that everyone wore talleisim before the chasuna the reason why most people today dont wear a talis till their chasuna is becaue they didnt have money to buy one and it became a chasuna gift from the kallah
I like that idea Josh31. Starting the boys with hats several years before the Bar Mitzvah (as some communities already do) would be a wonderful idea.
I believe that like holtzichfest said regarding the Talis, many things such as black hat, became the mark of a bar mitzvah boy because of cost. In past generations, many people did not have enough money for shoes, clothes and food, let alone extraneous things like black hats and talis gadol. (many communities often shared ONE set of the arbah minim on sukkos because of a lack of wealth we have today.)
yeshivaguy1: To put the record straight, the reason we dont wear a tallis til after marriage, is that the unmarried would stand out and hopefully encourage them to hurry and be mekayem this mitzvah.
Whether this is applicable nowadays is debatable. but minhag avoiseinu beyodainu and we dont change – al titosh toiras imecha. We find the same with sefaik deyoima, that we keep two days of yomtov even though we have calendars, which is mevatel a mitsva deoiraysah of putting on teffilin.
Lesson: dont change a minhag however wrong you think it is. there is always a mekoir.
holtzichfest: it used to be that everyone wore talleisim before the chasuna the reason why most people today dont wear a talis till their chasuna is becaue they didnt have money to buy one and it became a chasuna gift from the kallah
Not accurate. It is clear from the Gemarra that the minhag then was that unmarried men did not wear a talis, or at least not over their head.
hello99:”or at least not over their head”
that sounds better as a matter of fact thats how we are noiheg today also please post where the gemara is because im not saying my own svara i saw it brought down (i forgot where!)so i would like to see the gemara
The Gemara you’re looking for is Kiddushin 29b starting 9 lines from the bottom.
yitayningwut:
i know that gemara but i believe that gemara is talking about stam a yarlmulka or special head covering worn by married men (see rashi there), we find in the gemara that abaiyei had a special choshuva sudra (cloth head covering)actually the minhag of wearing yarlmulkas only started during the times of the gemara. al kol panim im still looking for the gemara that hello99 quoted!! till then i rest my case that everyone used to wear talleisim till they could not afford it and it became a chasuna gift a gutten kvitel un a gut gibentched yur
holtzichfest-
I wasn’t saying I agreed with hello99, only that that is the gemara he is looking for. That is the gemara used to make this point, whether you agree to the r’aya or not.
holtzichfest: That’s the Gemarra I referred to, the Magen Avraham 8:3 understands it refers to the talis.
The Maharil, Rokeach and Rosh all write that the minhag was for bochurim NOT to wear taleisim based on the proximity of the pesukim ?????? ???? ?? and ?? ??? ??? ???. They are all from Germany and its seems much more likely that the original minhag was that ALL Ashkenazi communities did NOT wear taleisim until the chasuna and the Yekkes changed later for various reasons. Please bring a source for your speculation that it was for economic reasons, I have otherwise from older yidden born in Frankfort.
hello99
im sorry i forgot to mention i was learning the gemara like the taz ofen urt if you already looked up the mg”a take a look at the taz while your at it ayin sham vidoik!
Sorry, the Taz there does not even mention the Gemara daf 29. So I don’t see why you imagine he learns it any differently then the Magen Avraham does.
Also what do do you do with the Maharil etc, clearly there is no basis for your “theory”.
If the hat would be given when a child is younger (and the davening would likely be more “simple” for lack of a better word), then it seems to me the hat would have no meaning. A Bar Mitzvah is a milestone, partially because the boy gets a hat. If he would have it younger than it would just be another article of clothing.
caps for sale!
hello99
its mivuar from the taz how to learm the gemara like i said vidoik
holtzichfest: Do you want to be more specific, I don’t see any mashmaus from the Taz to your “mis”understanding of history.
Hats are great
Well once someone brought this thread up
Lesson: dont change a minhag however wrong you think it is. there is always a mekoir.
I will quote some sources that I quoted a few months ago in the Daas Torah thread (I seem to be quoting a lot of my old posts recently):
Maseches Soferim 14:18:
??? ????? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??????? ??? ???? ???? ?? ????? ?? ????? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ????
Teshuvas HaRosh 55:10:
??? ?? ???? ??????? ???? ??? ?? ????? ?? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ?????? ?? ????? ???? ?”? ????? ????? ??? ?? ????? [?????? ?????? ????? ?????? ????? ????? ??? ?? ?? ????? ??? ?? ?????] ??? ??? ??? ???? ??? ?? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ?? ?? ?? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ?? ????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ?? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ??????? ????? ??? ???? ????? ?? ???? ????? ???????? ???? ???? ????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ??? ???? ??? ??? ????? ?? ??????? ???? ???????? ????? ??? ??????? ????? ?? ????? ??????? ?? ????? ?? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?????? ???????? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ??? ??? ????? ??’ ?? ?? ????? ????? ???? ???? ?? ??? ????? ????? ????? ??????? ??? ??? ????? ??? ????? ????? ??????? ??????? ????? ????? ?? ??? ????? ???? ????? ????? ??? ?? ???? ??? ????? ???? ???? ????? ?? ??? ?????? ??? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ?? ??? ??? ??? ???? ????? ????? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ?????? ??? ????? ??? ?????? ??”? ????? ?????? ??? ???? ?????? ?? ?????? ?????? ??? ??? ??????? ?????? ?? ????? ??’ ?????? ?????? [????] ????? ???? ?? ????? ???? ??????? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ??? ?’ ???? ???? ????? ??? ??? ???? ????? ??? ??? ?? ??? ????? ???? ???? ?????? ?????? ???? ?? ????? ??? ????? ???? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ???? ?????? ?? ??? ????? ????? ????? ??? ?? ???? ????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ?? ?? ????? ??????? ?? ????? ?? ?? ????? ?? ????? ??????? [?? ???] ?? ?? ????? ??? ?? ????? ???? ??? ?????? ???????? ???? ?? ??????? ???? ??? ??? ?? ?? ????? ?? ????? ??? ???? ????? ?? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ????? ?? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ???? ??? ?? ?? ?? ????? ?????? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?? ????? ??? ????? ????? ????? ????? ???’ ??? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ?? ???? ???? ???? ??????? ???? ????? ???????? ???? ????? ?? ?????? ?? ???? ????? ?? ???? ?????? ????? ??? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ??????? ????? ?? ????? ????? ????? ??? ????? ????? ??????? ????? ????? ???? ???? ?? ???? ??? ??? ?? ??? ????? ???? ???? ??? ????? ?? ????? ??????? ??? ??? ?? ??? ????? ??? ?? ????? ????? ????? ???? ????? ????? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ??? ??? ???? ?? ??? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ???? ???????? ????? ?????? ?? ??? ????? ???? ????? ??? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ?? ???? ????? ??? ???? ?? ???? ?? ???? ?? ?????? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ?”? ??? ????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ????? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ?? ???? ????? ??? ??? ?? ??? ????? ????? ????? ?????? ?????? ???? ?? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ?? ??? ???? ???’ ???? ?? ??? ??? ??? ?”? ???????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ????? ?? ??? ????? ?? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ?? ????? ?????? ??? ?? ?? ???? ??? ??? ???? ?? ???? ????? ???????? ????? ??? ??? ????? ?? ????? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ????? ???? ????? ???? ????? ?????? ?? ????? ????? ?? ????? ?????? ?? ?????? ??? ?????? ????? ????? ?????? ????? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ???????? ???”? ????? ?? ????? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?? ??? ?? ????? ???? ?? ????? ??? ??? ?? ??? ??? ????? ??”?
Rashba Bava Basra 144b:
??? ???? ?????? ?? ??? ??? ???? ??? ????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ???? ???? ???? ????
And here’s Rabbeinu Yonah (???? ?????? ??? ? – ??? ?) which I quoted in the Techeiles thread a long time ago:
????? ??? ???? ??? ?? ?????? ????? ?? ????? ??????? ?? ????? ???? ??? ?? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ????? ?????? ??? ?????? ?????? ????? ?? ?? ???? ?????? ??? ???? ????? ????? ????”? ?? ???? ???? ???? ????? ???? ???? ??? ?? ???? ?? ???? ????? ???? ?? ?? ???? ??? ???? ???? ??????? ???? ??? ???? ????
In my next post I’ll add the Pele Yoetz.
Pele Yoetz “Minhag”:
??? ??? ??? ?????? ???? ????? ????? ??? ???? ??? ?????? ???? ??? ?? ?? ??? ???? ???? ??? ?? ?? ??????? ????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ?? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ?????? ?????? ???? ??????? ?????? ???? ??? ??? ??? ??????? ??????? ???? ???? ?? ???? ??? ???? ????? ????? ??????? ???? ???? ????? ??? ??????? ?? ????? ???????? ?? ????
??? ??? ?? ????? ????? ?? ??? ??? ???? ??? ?? ?????? ??? ????? ???? ????? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??”? ???? ??? ???? ????? ?? ?????? ?? ???? ?”? ???? ??? ??? ??? ??????? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ??? ???? ?? ?? ??? ????? ?????? ?? ????? ???? ???? ????? ????? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ???? ???? ?? ????? ???? ???? ??? ?”? ??? ??? ????? ???? ????? ???? ???? ??? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ?????? ???? ???? ???????? ?? ???? ?? ?? ???? ???? ????? ?? ???? ??????? ?? ???? ?? ??? ??? ?? ??? ???? ??? ??? ???? ???? ?? ?????
?? ?????? ???? ??? ????
???? ?? ??? ?? ??? ????? ?? ??? ??? ?? ?? ?????? ???? ???? ?????
RebYidd23:
You bumped this just for that? I stamp my feet at you! Tsz, tsz, tsz.
I throw my cap on the ground to show my anger.
I also throw your cap on the ground to show my anger. 🙂
Sorry, my cap is already on the ground.
RebYidd23:
It’s (one of?) your other caps, of course. Anyway,
what do you have to be angry about in this case?
You stamped your feet at me.
RebYidd23.
Yeah, well.. It was on the ground. I picked it up and threw it back down on the ground. You were just to angry to tell. But at least we both share the same sentiment. 😀
My previous post – http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/hats#post-544103 – should have read: “your other cap(s).”
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