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maybe it simply bothers you that your not on their level and your jealous.
That statement is the reason that it bothers me – because people like you feel that I am “not on their level.” What gives you the special insight to make that decision?? I can assure you that jealousy is NOT one of the many things I feel about this issue. It is the smugness that bothers me and nothing more. ONLY HASHEM, repeat,ONLY HASHEM decides which of us is on what level, not you, not I, not the Rosh Yeshivah, not the frei Jew in the street. The attitude you display in comments such as these, is precisely the reason why many of us are so bothered by this type of hashkafa. it is an elitist and false perception. Sorry.
i take it your yekke
take it your yekke
If you mean, me, no you are mistaken. My family is Polish and Russian, and my dad was actually born in Roumania to Russian parents. What made you think yekke? (Though I do have a tendency to be very on time, I will admit, as a rebellious backlash to my beloved dad, O”H, who was NEVER on time for anything).
Oomis, he meant me.
I’m half yekke, but on my mothers side. The only yekke things I keep are non halachic/minhag things.
Haven’t had a chance to read the whole thread, but agree very much with Oomis and SJSinNYC, here. A few points:
1) Look up tshuvah in Reb Moshe about a yid who came from Poland, and asked whether changing from the long levush of his hometown to the shorter levush of the USA would be considered dressing in a non-Jewish fashion. Reb Moshe replied, no, it is changing from one Jewish mode of dress to another Jewish mode of dress, and he is allowed to wear the shorter jackets, since many fine Jews wear shorter jackets.
2) The core of this debate is about the nature of frumkeit in general. Is frumkeit to separate from other Jews, and think I am better than those guys, or to inspire other Jews. If the former, than wear a type of dress which although it has nothing to do with yiddishkeit, it is obviously much different than everybody elses. This will cause me to keep my distance from them, and they will certainly do the same to me, since they think I look totally weird. They will not want to learn more about frumkeit, since they have absolutely no interest in becoming part of any group that dresses in such a totally weird way that makes them look like a public spectacle. They would also not want to put on a pair of Groucho Marx plastic eyeglasses, nose and mustache things in public on a day to day basis, and would politely decline an offer to join any religion which had that as a requirement for exactly the same reason. Please understand that this does not make them bad people. It is just that most people do not have the guts to make themselves look like freaks in the eyes of the rest of humanity.
3) Note similarly that for the purpose of kiruv, if in the interest of full-discosure you told a non-frum professional with advanced degress who attended a reform synagogue his whole life and loved the state of Israel where he marched in the parade with his community every year, “Come, let me introduce you to authentic Judaism. I will teach you to hate the state of Israel, and also that after 13 years old you are not allowed to learn secular studies. That even includes no high school algebra, geometry, trig, and certainly no college. Doesn’t that sound like a great way of life. Come join us to learn more.” I think you will not get that many takers, and some may disgorge what they have just eaten. (The other alternative is to be dishonest and try to hide the anti-israel and anti-limudei chol chareidi attitude from them while you work on being mekarev them, and only at the end spring it on them, or let others spring it on them by surprise. Seems like dirty business practice to me.)
However, if the goal of yiddishkeit is to inspire people towards ahavas chesed and ahavas yisroel and ahavas habrios and ahavas haborei, and the simcha of learning a blatt gemara, then the first thing is not to alienate others or make them feel uncomfortable in any way. Make them see that frum people are the pinnacle of what humanity can be. Make them see that whatever their background they can enjoy life more with Torah. It is all darchei noam. Make them feel that they can continue to dress like a well-dressed professsional wearing nice colored suits and ties. They do not need to wear a hat, since it has no connection to Judaism. Only a small stylish yarmulka of whatever type or color or material they prefer, to remember the Creator. (And if that will cause them financial hardship then Reb Moshe says even a yarmulka is not necessary.) Do not put up needless barriers with our beloved brethren. Show them we are just like you and appreciate everything you do and your talents, but the Torah can give your life a bit more spice and happiness. Be meurav im habrios, not put up a wall, which is exactly what a black hat is.
4) Regarding those who say that looking nice is a breach of tznius, I have the follwoing question: Is a girl with crooked teeth not allowed to get orthodonture since that might make her super attractive with a perfect set of pearly white teeth that light up a crowd. Does anybody know of any poskim who hold that way? From here I conclude that tznius has nothing to do with being attractive, whatsoever.
Re Pashute Yid point 2: if it is one’s mesorah to be separate and insular, kol hakavod. But most of us weren’t raised this way, and as we try to navigate our way in a world that does require setting up more boundaries than we were raised with (no TV in my house, e.g.) we’re going to come up with defining situations, like this.
So exactly what makes it “yeshivish” or even Jewish?
the Gedolim wear it so its the accepted dress for the yeshivish olam.
Pashuteh Yid, you said it much better than I did. I am sure there will be those who will try to argue your points, but you made those points well, clearly, and with compassion.
This whole discussion reminds me of soemthing a friend told me over Chanukah. She has family who live in Kiryat Sefer. One of the little kids, in Gan, came home with a picture the class had colored in school. The picture was of the Chashmonaim fighting the Greeks. The Chashmonaim – with swords and shields – were wearing suits and (presumably black) hats!
The Chashmonaim – with swords and shields – were wearing suits and (presumably black) hats!
That’s actually funny.
mamashtakah, no different than those post-Renaissance Haggados with the four sons wearing tricots, slaves not much different.
how about the ones with long curly payos and shtreimels, which only came about in more recent history.
~a~
how about the ones with long curly payos and shtreimels, which only came about in more recent history.
Funny how the Teimeni (Yemenite) Yidden still have long curly payos, after having been in isolation (and thus probably closest to how we dressed before the churban) for 3,000 years!
“Because thats what the Gedolim wear so black and white is the Jewish garb for frum men”.
Flatbush27: Rav Scheinberg wears 50 pairs of tzitzis. Does that make it obligatory on other Jews? What the gedolim wear is for reasons best known to them, and not binding on the rest of us, nor part of halacha.
As far as wearing hat and jacket on hot day in Bronx Zoo, the Mishna Berurah says that one who lives in an area which is excessively hot can even daven in short pants (Begadim ktzarim byoser). So if one can even go to shul in shorts, al achas kamah vkamah one can go to the Bx Zoo in long pants and a shirt, without hat and jacket. I am not recommending one wear shorts to davening or any other time, I am just saying what the halacha requires.
To each his own. However, as I mentioned before, if non-frum Jews are led to believe that black hat and jacket are a necessary part of yiddishkeit, they will be far less motivated to ever become frum. Kol hamosif goreya.
I was in NYC today and it was hot. very hot! I wore a black suit and hat. I had to walk about 2 miles in each direction to go and return from the event that I was attending. I carried a water bottle with me and I survived.
I don’t think that anybody even paid one bit of attention to me.
same goes for the zoo. people go to look at the animals not how the yidden are dressed. I was there a couple of summers ago and I have no recollection of being made to feel uncomfortable about how I was dressed. I have never been inside a CC so I can not comment about that place.
I think that the really story here is that Yidden are looking at how other Yidden are dressed and passing judgement – the rest of the world really could not care.
Pashuteh Yid
Member
“Because thats what the Gedolim wear so black and white is the Jewish garb for frum men”.
Flatbush27: Rav Scheinberg wears 50 pairs of tzitzis. Does that make it obligatory on other Jews? What the gedolim wear is for reasons best known to them, and not binding on the rest of us, nor part of halacha.
i never said it was obligatory. i never said it was halacha. if someone feels the need to be outside the box or mold for some reason or just enjoys going deeper into galus and dressing and acting and eating like a goy so be it.
Flatbush27: One additional point. I learned by gedolei yisroel who knew kol hatorah kula and who wore light suits and colored shirts. Not all gedolim wear black and white.
But most of us weren’t raised this way, and as we try to navigate our way in a world that does require setting up more boundaries than we were raised with (no TV in my house, e.g.) we’re going to come up with defining situations, like this.
Tzippi, I understand that you are trying to draw boundaries. However, don’t ask me to respect your non-halachic boundaries when in my personal opinion they arent particularly intelligent. If there was a halachic basis, I would respect you for following your path, but there is NOTHING halachic about wearing a suit/hat to the Bronx Zoo.
I was at the zoo today. I would be a lot more worried about what the other women were wearing than I would be about a hat and jacket if I were a Jewish man…
if someone feels the need to be outside the box or mold for some reason or just enjoys going deeper into galus and dressing and acting and eating like a goy so be it.
The irony of this statement is that the whole concept of suits and short jackets IS A NON-JEWISH NOTION. Jewish attire has changed throughout time based on where we lived. Jews didnt even wear socks until they moved up north. So be careful what you call ” dressing like a goy.”
I personally disagree with “clothes make the man” but maybe thats because I am less shallow than some of you.
SJS, they’re not my boundaries, though I know what you mean.
I’m not into levush. That my kids are is their decision, but I’ve always created an atmosphere such that they know that if they make other decisions, want to experiment, they will not feel disenfranchised. And B”H, that impacts how they look at guys who haven’t made their decisions.
And yeah, I’m not enamored of how Flatbush27 expressed things.
flatbush27, you wrote:
i never said it was obligatory. i never said it was halacha. if someone feels the need to be outside the box or mold for some reason or just enjoys going deeper into galus and dressing and acting and eating like a goy so be it.
Are you saying that anyone who doesn’t dress like the gedolim (at least the ones you are thinking of) is “dressing and acting and eating like a goy”? I wonder if these gedolim view anyone who doesn’t dress like them as “dressing and acting and eating like a goy”. If not, why do you feel a need to be more machmir in dress habits (or more maikil in ahavas yisrael) than they are?
if someone feels the need to be outside the box or mold for some reason or just enjoys going deeper into galus and dressing and acting and eating like a goy so be it.
Flatbush, the more you post, the more you prove our point. “just enjoys…dressing and acting and eating like a goy…” WHOA! That has to be the most smug statement I have heard in a long time. It is especially ironic, given the fact that the levush you seem to prize so highly is goyish in origin. And wearing different levush does not make any of us “acting” like a goy.
SJS, they’re not my boundaries, though I know what you mean.
Tzippi, thank you! Its nice to encounter a poster that understands the sentiment. Normally this might have dragged on unecessarily. So, a real thank you 🙂
I was hoping to avoid entering the fray, but I feel I must.
Mamashtakah wrote:This whole discussion reminds me of soemthing a friend told me over Chanukah. She has family who live in Kiryat Sefer. One of the little kids, in Gan, came home with a picture the class had colored in school. The picture was of the Chashmonaim fighting the Greeks. The Chashmonaim – with swords and shields – were wearing suits and (presumably black) hats!
I once delivered something to a family in Kiryat Sefer. I have a typical Jewish Ashkenazic face and build, and am of Lithuanian origin.I have a beard. I wear a kipah. I wore a light blue shirt and dark blue slacks (Dockers). The young boy who answered the door asked his mother if I was an….ARAB. I asked the young boy if I looked like an Arab, to which he replied, ” yes”. I finally figured it out when he pointed to my clothing. Only the Arab workers wear colored clothing.
SJS, I really do think we’re on the same page. That said, I also understand that in the need to draw lines, some people will go to the right of me and do it in a way that doesn’t stifle their children, and will still have a wonderful atmosphere in the home.
I do have to say, I find it hard to take people who are overly sanctimonious, on the internet…
Whoops, should have been take such people seriously.
I would like to offer the following thought that lo shinu es malbusham means the quality of dress, not the actual garments. In each locale, a Jew should wear something tzniusdig for women and bkovodig for men according to the prevailing style of that locale. In other words, dress professionally. In the USA, professionally does not mean a black hat and mismatched jacket, etc.
“I would like to offer the following thought that lo shinu es malbusham means the quality of dress, not the actual garments. In each locale, a Jew should wear something tzniusdig for women and bkovodig for men according to the prevailing style of that locale. In other words, dress professionally. In the USA, professionally does not mean a black hat and mismatched jacket, etc. “
We are so on the same page, here….
Ames, it is well-known that Moshe Rabbeinu wore a black hat. The proof is that it says Vayelech Moshe. Would Moshe Rabbeinu walk without a black hat???
Pashuteh Yid:
“Yasher Koach for defending the Heilege Mitzva of tznius which nebach is being trampled upon”
My son learned in Yeshivah all his life, and then for two years in E”Y,and now every morning either with a chavrusah or on his own. He definitely was and is a Ben Torah, and virtually NEVER wore a black hat, except when in a neighborhood where it was awkward not to. If he wears “khakis and a polo shirt,” he acts with the same derech eretz and zrizus to do mitzvos and learn Torah, as when he is dressed up in his Shabbos suit.
so it wouldnt bother you if he wore khakis and a polo shirt on Shabbos, because he’ll act the same, right?
ames, you ARE wrong. did you ever see those pictures on the parsha that your kids bring home? Moshe wore a streimel. (i’m guessing he had ruach hakodesh and knew when all the yomim tovim were going to be because for some reason he’s drawn with it in every picture.)
Flatbush27, If you go out of town, you may meet some very fine people who wear khakis and a shirt on Shabbos. Why not take some time off and see other yidden?
Flatbush, honestly, it wouldnt bother me if my son wore khakis and a polo shirt on shabbos. But thats because I think what’s inside is more important.
Pashuteh Yid: You don’t have to go out of town, and you’ll see some very fine people wearing jeans and a t-shirt on Shabbat too.
This thread will never end…
I’m reading through this heated debate regarding cloths and…. laughing! yes- I find this entire discussion laughable- anyone with me?
I’m sure I’ve had some comments posted and I was adamant about my view of things. But to be so close minded that the discussion went this far…
Doesn’t everyone know that we’ll all eventually come “upstairs” and Hashem will be the judge? Who are we to say what is 100% right or wrong? We may feel a certain way and have certain sensitivities, but please stop shoving it down everyone else’s throats’!
moish: dont even start with those parsha sheets. I can’t STAND them. They’re so misleading and thats the picture that stays for you for quite a while. (Until you think into it one day and realize, hey, Moshe did not necesarily wear such things or look a certain way)
In the same vain, do Malachim look like big birds?
I have always felt that the idea behind wearing black/white exclusively was to take your mind off your outside and focus it on more your inside (it is also a brand identifier, telling the world Who’s team you’re on).
dovid_yehuda- I like that angle of it, very refreshing and true! I think you finally clinched this whole discussion. Your post sounds like a feivel type comment- very short, tzim zoch and really hits the nail on the head! thank you
It seems that What the President of the US wears (botton down shirt, no tie or jacket) is Kavod these days (such as for Shabbos or Yom Tov). I wonder when it will trickle down to the Hamon Am. (Although Business attire may be more reflective of Kavod)
flatbush27: It bothers me more what men & women wear to daven than not wearing a hat & jacket. Don’t they realize they are standing before The King! A dusty hat & dirty jacket, as well as a plain shirt & skirt are not appropriate. At the very least, a clean Jacket should be required for both men & women.
Seeing that you are so emphatic about dressing properly (like a Yid), I’m sure you will agree that women should wear a Hat & Jacket as well (if they ever go outside, as well as for davening, candlelighting, bentching and the sort). I can just see it being the newest Shidduch question! You don’t want to be labeled an “unmachmir” C”V!
mepal – maybe. they have three sets of wings, though – don’t they?
so it wouldnt bother you if he wore khakis and a polo shirt on Shabbos, because he’ll act the same, right?
Yes it would and he would never do that, because it would not be showing kovod to SHABBOS, which is a day wherein we dress in our best clothing. You seem to have a real hangup about this, and I cannot fathom why. I never said or even implied that he dresses that way when he goes to learn. If you actually read my post, I stated that IF he dresses that way, he still shows the same derech eretz, zrizus to do mitzvos and (love of) learning Torah as at any other time. There is a time and place for everything. My son does NOT wear khakis and a polo shirt when he goes into a Beis Medrash, but if he did, the quality of his learning would be the same as it always is, because his CHARACTER does not change. If one needs a “uniform” in order to keep himself focused on the task at hand and his Torah life, then he might have a problem.
In E”Y, my family members who are all extremely learned Yeshivah bochurim for decades, don’t even WEAR a suit jacket on Shabbos. They go to shul, to a simcha, etc. in a clean white shirt and dark pants, no tie,no hat. Only the chassidish members dress more in the yeshivish manner, meaning with a hat and jacket. Areivim is right – this entire discussion is almost laughable, or it would be, were it not to patently obvious how seriously some people take the concept of the levush making the man. So sad, so smug, and so wrong. After 120 years Hashem is going to really have a job changing some of those minds.
Dovid, you hit the nail on the head. Since when is it necessary to advertise one’s brand to the world. Hatznea leches im hashem elokecha. Also, when you broadcast that you are ultra-religious or whatever, it intimidates other people, and makes them think that to be religious one must look totally different than everybody else which is unpleasant for most people, and may be a barrier to their becoming interested in yiddishkeit. There are two sides to the coin.
on the one hand you think people are wrong for thinking the levush make the man but then you would see something wrong if your son wore that on shabbos! if clothes dont matter to you, why should they on Shabbos. if he wore nice clean white pants with a nice pressed blue shirt on Shabbos what would be the problem if clothes dont do anything for a person. my point is clothes do make a person, whether that is right or wrong is a different discussion but in our society clothes make a difference so simply dress accordingly or ignore it and do what you want
Flatbush: Ein hochi nomi that many frum Jews wear exactly that on Shabbos, especially in EY. Pashtus is a gevaldigeh maylah that many Israelis have. I remember when I spent a year at a Hesder Yeshiva that many Israeli bochurim were so poor they simply couldn’t afford fancy suits. In addition, many couldn’t afford air conditioning, so to escape the heat they had to dress lightly even if they could afford suits. Yet they were big masmidim and sincere people. They went to weddings in simple clean white shirts, as well. What is so terrible? You seem to be frantically holding on to the notion of the black hat and jacket as if it is a lifeline and so afraid to let go.
i have no problem with them wearing that on Shabbos but oomis apparently doesnt care about clothes yet cares enough to wear clothes that new york deems normal on Shabbos. the black hat and jacket is normal here but in communities in E”Y its not so i see nothing wrong with those communities wearing what they deem normal.
“i have no problem with them wearing that on Shabbos but oomis apparently doesnt care about clothes yet cares enough to wear clothes that new york deems normal on Shabbos. the black hat and jacket is normal here but in communities in E”Y its not so i see nothing wrong with those communities wearing what they deem normal.”
It is very big of you to “see nothing wrong with those communities wearing what they deem normal.” Yasher Koach.
Flatbush, it is truly pointless to argue or weven try to discuss something with you. You bring up notions that have nothing whatsoever to do with the conversation (i.e. what my son does or does not wear), and your only interest is in being RIGHT at all costs. That is precisely the problem with the mindset of the people of The Levush who feels as you do. You mamesh have no call to tell me what I do or do not care about it -you don’t even know me. You keep stating you don’t have a problem with “them wearing that on Shabbos,” (agian, that’s mighty Jewish of y’all…) but you glom onto a notion and won’t let go. That’s your prerogative, but I am ready to move on…
ames, I never have trouble deciding what I am going to wear. I never worry that I wore the same thing to 2 weddings and the sheva brochas all of different shul members in the same 2 week span. every tie I own, goes matches my suit and shoes. my hat and belt matches my suit. my top coat and gloves match… need I go on?
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