Hat and Jacket at Chuck-E-Cheese???

Oomis: I understand how you feel about being judged for the way you dress, and I am definitely on a lesser level of dress in tzniut than you are (you wrote you wear long skirt, sleeves, snood…in your other post), yet I think differently about “yeshivish” people’s dressing habits.

I will actually respect the guy in the black hat…not because I feel that he is more religious than me (because I am very spiritual myself and I know a lot of halachot) but because he is trying to preserve his religious state of mind in the way he dresses. Maybe I’m just assuming it is so, and probably there are many that dress a certain way just because they want to fit into a specific group, but don’t you think it would be easier for the guy to remove his hat and say “I’m too hot to wear this!”

I think that the fact that a Yeshiva guy is willing to dress in a way that he feels is proper, is actually admirable and not troubling.

True, what you say about people being surprised about you knowing Halachic things (though the way you describe your dress sounds yeshivish to me). I have a really religious friend who was shocked when I told her that I had to send my dress to be checked for Shatnez. But I have learned that the way we portray ourselves is the way that others will see us. It’s easy to say “Don’t judge me by the way I dress”, but the way we dress DOES say about the person that we are. I have finally learned this and come to term with this fact.

i was not intending to qoute you. i was just trying to describe the type of people. if i see a frum person not dressed tzniusdig, and i dont mean not in the so called mold. i mean untznius. then i would not eat in her home. if shes not keeping whichever halacha of tznius why on earth should i assume shes keeping every halacha of kashrus? im not saying she isnt though. i just am not going to assume she does. i heard in a shiur once eating treifus and the like affects a persons actions. and the rav brought the zionist leaders as proofs.

It’s easy to say “Don’t judge me by the way I dress”, but the way we dress DOES say about the person that we are. I have finally learned this and come to term with this fact.

I have found that most of the time (and we could go round and round with this), judgements are based on the person’s perceptions, not what we are trying to say. Its usually people’s prejudice that guides them in this manner and that is different from person to person.

if i see a frum person not dressed tzniusdig, and i dont mean not in the so called mold. i mean untznius. then i would not eat in her home. if shes not keeping whichever halacha of tznius why on earth should i assume shes keeping every halacha of kashrus? im not saying she isnt though. i just am not going to assume she does.

Flatbush, by that logic, if someone tells me loshon hara, or I find out they cheat on their taxes or that they used a blech improperly, you wouldnt eat by them either. Which ultimately means, you wouldnt eat by anyone because everyone sins in some way.

“but because he is trying to preserve his religious state of mind in the way he dresses”

Jewess, he is not only doing what you say. He is also trying to preserve MY religious mind, by thinking that I am not dressing up to his higher standard, and am in need of “fixing.” What he really wants is to see ALL Jews dress like he does, and if they do not, he thinks (as apparently now do you) that he is on a higher madreiga. Who says so????? Maybe the higher level is to take the beautiful colors that Hashem put into this world and wear them!!!! Maybe He WANTS us to make ourselves attractively attired, and be in comfortable clothing, so that when we are learning, we do not think about how hot we might be, sitting in a black suit and hat learning (well, the guys, anyway). Maybe it’s a GOOD thing to actually be physically comfortable enough to enjoy learning in any environment, even on a hot summer day.

I do not find it admirable if someone knowingly dresses in a way that is not mandated by halacha m’Sina and sets himself up for a heat stroke, in order to merely fit into someone else’s religious cookie cutter ideology that teaches him he should feel prouder of himself for doing that than not doing it. That is not what Yiddishkeit is supposed to be about, and anyone who disagrees with me, has every right to do so, but respectfully, I truly believe some people have lost sight of what we are supposed to be, as a nation. I respectfully also disagree with the idea that the way we dress says “about the way we are.” There are people who are totally untzniusdig (by our minimal standards)in their dress style, who have hearts of gold and I would stack them up against a dozen rabbis. There are people dressed in the most chassidish of garb who are complete behaimas, and I do not mean that they have committed crimes, they are simply boorish. One thing has nothing to do with the other. It is an external manifestation and nothing more. Yes, there are standards of dress that one should follow in order to not fall into the traps that lie in wait for many of us. It is harder for someone dressed cleanly and neatly in clothing that basically covers most of their body, to commit acts of immorality, but that is also no guarantee of protection, unless the person has internalized those feelings.

I respect, admire, and feel inspired by people who are good, honest, honorable people, who spend their lives in trying to do chessed and bringing a tikun to this world. I do not respect, admire, and feel inspired by people whose sole aim in life seems to be to divisively show off how righteous they believe themselves to be, as compared to another person who may be equally righteous but doesn’t have to show off about it. The fact that a girl does or does not wear a jeans skirt says absolutely zip about her middos and love of Torah. A boy who wears a sweater over his shirt and not a jacket, may be more learned, and more spiritually connected to Hakadosh Baruch Hu, than a Kollel boy. Anyone who thinks otherwise, has proved my point. They are already judging someone for the wrong reasons.

Jewess, I am not Yeshivish – but I try very hard to always be a religiously observant Jewish woman. I do not consider you to be less so, even if you dress differently. I ask about three things when I want to know if someone is frum. Does the person totally keep Shabbos, do they keep strictly kosher, and if married, do they keep Taharas Hamishpacha? If those three criteria are met,they are frum, as far as I am concerned. I presume the men are davening three times a day and putting on tefillin in the morning. Yes, there are different levels, but all fall within the parameters of Yiddishkeit. And it will only be after 120 years that we will truly know what level was the “higher madreiga.” Is a nazir on a higher madreiga than a Jew who follows the halacha and does drink wine and cut his hair and nails? Or is he actually on a negative madreiga, because he clearly needed to become a nazir in order to prevent himself from sinning? Isn’t that why he has to bring a korban at the end of his nazirus? So who is the real tzaddik? Hashem tells us “V’chai Bahem,” one explanation of which is that we have to experience LIFE while doing the mitzvos. Anyone can deny himself, live like the Puritans or Ascetics. It is the one who lives life as the “Yom K’Purim,” who is on the higher madreiga. OK, off my soapbox, now.

Thanks for the reply Oomis.

Here are my thoughts:

“He is also trying to preserve MY religious mind, by thinking that I am not dressing up to his higher standard, and am in need of “fixing.” What he really wants is to see ALL Jews dress like he does, and if they do not, he thinks (as apparently now do you) that he is on a higher madreiga.”

First of all, how do you know that? Has he told you that or do you just assume so? Second of all, who the heck cares? I honestly don’t care what level anybody else thinks I am on. I am comfortable in the place I am. I know I may need to grow more, but I am sure God knows how much effort I put to stay in the place I am, so what do I care what some guy in a black hat thinks?

“It is an external manifestation and nothing more.”

Are you sure about that? When I wear a short skirt, am I not subconciously showing off my legs? When I am wearing a fitted top or whatever, would I do so if I thought I didn’t look good? Clothing is who we are, there’s no denying it, as much as I would like to.

I am not saying that we should be labeled for it, but I do believe that we dress a certain way because that is the person that we either are, or are trying to be. Our outsides tell about our insides. That’s not to say that we are bad people if we don’t dress in a tzniut manner. It just means that we are lacking in tzniut. (I don’t mean you, personally.) Somebody who dresses in a Yeshiva way, which he feels is “better”, is not better because of the color of his garments or the style of them, but because he is doing something to try to make himself better. And he is not necessarily better than you or I, as a Jew, but he is better than he was beforehand. He is better for the fact that he is trying to better himself, even if it isn’t necessarily better than say, wearing jeans and a nice shirt or khakis, or a blue shirt with black pants…or purple or pink… If he is doing it to work on himself and try and become a better Jew, why should we care? (This is of course assuming that his dress and his insides are on the same page.) Those who judge you by how you dress lower their own goodness by the fact that they are judging you, but I don’t think that every guy who tries to dress in the Yeshiva way is judging others and assuming that he is better than everyone else. I know guys I’ve grown up with that were regular (modern?) guys and now they are black hatters…I respect them for their growth. I don’t think they’re crazy for dressing like Yeshiva guys everywhere they go. And I most definitely don’t believe that they are looking at my own brothers and thinking that they should be that way too.

I love that you are so open minded and I wish more people were too. I’m just surprised that a person who seems so non judgemental would care about how another dresses.

Now I do wonder if anybody has gotten a heat stroke from wearing a suit in the park…

“Jewess, he is not only doing what you say. He is also trying to preserve MY religious mind, by thinking that I am not dressing up to his higher standard, and am in need of “fixing.” What he really wants is to see ALL Jews dress like he does, and if they do not, he thinks (as apparently now do you) that he is on a higher madreiga.”

Oomis, it seems to me that you are thinking in a manner that reflects paranoia. Really, people do not walk around with nasty thoughts about you, and are busy with their own lives, just as you are. I now understand better your very strong feelings against certain manner of dress, and perhaps one day you will rethink your stance, for your own peace of mind.

Just like YOU don’t wish to see all Jews dressed as you do, others have no agenda to make the hamon am dress as they do. You are ascribing thoughts and intentions that have no bearing on reality, although I am certain you have had some painful experiences that have lead you to think in so unusual a manner.

yank there’s no issue of maaris ayin if the place has any other facilities or even sells something kosher. like coke.

besides, “the rabbi walking into MacDonald’s” is such an overused example that by now we all know he was only going to use the bathroom.

moish, lol!

~a~

anonymisss, that was a perfect virtual squeal

(i started writing “squeak” but i figured that would just give him too much attention. anyway, “squeal” is better.)

I love that you are so open minded and I wish more people were too. I’m just surprised that a person who seems so non judgemental would care about how another dresses.

Now I do wonder if anybody has gotten a heat stroke from wearing a suit in the park…

Well, thanks for that, anyway… I do care about how people dress when they bedavka dress in an uncomfortably inappropriate way in the misguided belief that this shows they have “grown” in religious observance. It has been stated so many times already, that I am surprised that neither you nor other people who have expressed this view see that they make my case for me. Every time you label a yeshivish levush as being a sign of “growth” because it shows the bochur trying to “better” himself, it by extrapolation implies that the LACK of that levush shows a LACK of growth, or a downword spiral. That is, I have to say it, just a tad gaivedig for a frum person to feel that way about either himself or to view another person negatively for not wanting to live that way. I guess if you can’t see that point, for whatever reason, then there is no purpose in discussing it further. I am not trying to convince you I am right. There is no wrong or right here. There is only my desire to sensitize some people and raise their awareness as to how it feels to be the one who is deemed in need of bettering ourselves, by those who believe themselves to be more highly evolved religiously because they wear a certain levush, even when it looks really hot and uncomfortable.

moish01- The example you gave about a Rabbi using the facilities at Mickey Dons is an example of Pakuach Neffish good point.

“oomis: i said this before on that issue: “if shes not keeping whichever halacha of tznius why on earth should i assume shes keeping every halacha of kashrus? im not saying she isnt though.”

i will not assume she does not keep kosher stringently but what im saying is she very well may be. and in restaurants there are mashgichim and if there werent i wouldnrt eat there.

“Now I do wonder if anybody has gotten a heat stroke from wearing a suit in the park…”

people dont just get heat strokes from wearing a suit in hot weather. go to manhattan in august. everyone wears a suit and i never saw people dropping like flies. you really dont hear about bochurim or rebbeim getting heat strokes because their wearing a hat and jacket. they drink water and go on with life. your reason of a heat stroke to not wear a jacket is far fetched because it simply doesnt happen often enough. fight some real issues that go in the summer, not bochurim wearing jackets. maybe fight the tznius issues on central in hot weather than yeshiva bochurim wearing jackets. or

flathbush, if i know the coffeeroom this is going to turn into a “cotton vs. wool tzitzis” thread. (or start a new one for that)

how about when rabbis get upset from cotton tzitzis? what do you say to that? same thing. and that’s not even something anyone sees – that just determines how much you’re gonna sweat. i think it’s ridiculous- why are you frummer if you die from heat? (ok, i know it’s better to wear wool. but still – that’s nobody’s business.)

“But do you think the clothing industry would be what it is, if clothing were not so important in “making the man”

or woman – Of course it is, but look at how men dress stlishly in suits or not. They are not all wearing black suits and white shirts, but they look menschelch and put-together, and definitely Torahdig (yes, even the nochrim).

As to the idea that guys are running to Manhattan in the summer, well they might be in seriously air-conditioned buildings at the time. When someone is outdoors. however, in the park paying ball with his kids or in camp, and dressed that way – That IS a heat stroke waiting to happen, and no one will convince me otherwise. I wonder how many hatzalah calls occur from this, especially with kids.

I don’t see why the Yeshiva world objects to lightweight, lighter-colored suits, that are equally presentable, and definitely more comfortable to wear. it’s the idea of the black suit being the ONLY proper levush, when there is no real basis for that in Torah, that bothers me. When Hashem gave us the Torah, there was no such style of dress. It’s one thing to wear a uniform, it is another to believe that one’s uniform is THE one and only uniform.

Oh well.

oomis- how does the Rabbi of your shul dress during the week? Black and white or colored shirt? We Jews are supposed to look different than the Goyim.

oomis, you did not answer my question

no there really arent any true Gedolim that dress like the goyim. as Yidden we have our own dress. im not sure why you refuse to see that. we as Yidden should dress differently than goyim.

“oomis- how does the Rabbi of your shul dress during the week? Black and white or colored shirt? We Jews are supposed to look different than the Goyim. “

When he is at work (teacher)or at Shul, he is in a suit and white shirt. When he is at a barbecue or being casual in some other way, he is dressed more casually, appropriately to the occasion. As to looking different from the goyim, we TOOK our levush directly from them. I just saw some footage of the Jews of Poland, and the way we dress today in the Yeshivishe velt is exactly how the Eastern European non-Jews dressed. So who dressed like whom, and who looked different from whom?

flatbush27, you keep on writing that “Yidden should dress differently than goyim”. Who do you suppose manufactures “yeshivish clothing”? Most “yeshivish clothing” is not manufactured exclusively by Jewish companies (b”h for that, or it’d be very expensive, due to unfavorable economies of scale) but by general apparel companies which market this clothing for dress or office wear, primarily to non-Jews. Most “yeshivish clothing”, whether purchased on 13th avenue or at Sym’s, is manufactured by these apparel companies. Thus, yidden who wear “yeshivish clothing” do indeed dress like some goyim.

Of course hats are a major exception to this rule.

“as Yidden we have our own dress”

Flatbush, please explain how white shirts and black pants are Jewish. You keep repeating that without explaining. As I’ve said, we do have our own dress, but its generally limited to kippot and tzitzit.

sjs:because thats what the Gedolim wear so black and white is the Jewish garb for frum men. i have no problem with people wearing otherwise. my kids wear colored shirts on days off from yeshiva. but why cant you respect a yid who wants to dress like a yid everyday, rain or shine. and yes the clothes were made by goyim but that doesnt make it not our garb, not that im saying its halacha although we are not supposed to dress like the goyim but the thing is we are not changing our uniform every season. the goyim have new styles every spring fall and winter! for us we are still wearing black pants and white shirts with hats and jackets even though the goyim decided thats not the style this year or last year or whatever. my point is no matter how much the fashion styles change in the goy’s society, ours doesnt., or at least shouldnt

sjs: a suit is suit. lets get real. a white shirt is a white shirt. two button or three button jackets or white on white shirts. its basically the same thing. your argument on that is really not withstanding. we dont all have to buy the same brand white shirt or suit, so each one will be slightly different from the next one. and if the uniform meant nothing then why do our Gedolim wear it every day! Gedolim do everything they do for a reason. they are not walking arond in a blue pressed shirt. or brown dress shoes. or jeans on a casual day. they wear dark pants, white shirts, hats and jackets.

a suit is suit. lets get real. a white shirt is a white shirt. two button or three button jackets or white on white shirts. its basically the same thing. your argument on that is really not withstanding. we dont all have to buy the same brand white shirt or suit, so each one will be slightly different from the next one. and if the uniform meant nothing then why do our Gedolim wear it every day! Gedolim do everything they do for a reason. they are not walking arond in a blue pressed shirt. or brown dress shoes. or jeans on a casual day. they wear dark pants, white shirts, hats and jackets.

If a suit is a suit, then why can you spot a fashionable guy (wearing a dark suit and white shirt) easily from someone who is wearing an “out of fashion” suit? Its generally easy enough to see and I know VERY little about mens suits.

I know plenty of people who wear white shirts and dark suits day in and day out – and arent Jewish. They generally have higher pressure jobs (Wall Street and such) and that is what they are used to wearing.

As to why gedolim do it – why don’t you ask them? Maybe its because it makes it easy to get dressed in the morning. They don’t have to think about “which shirt matches what suit”? Maybe they do it because it makes laundry easier on their wives? Or maybe its because its easy to find dark suits and white shirts? GO ASK THEM AND DON’T ASSUME.

Also, realize this is a relatively new phenomena. Our parents generation (OK, I don’t quite know how old you are) did not only wear dark suits and white shirts. Even the most frum ones.

sls: your definitely right and i shouldnt assume about the Gedolim. and there really arent out of fashion suits. three piece are making a comeback. i see plenty of non jews wearing them and i also see some wearing double breasted suits so i think right now every suit is fine.

flatbush27, my point isn’t that the clothes “yeshivish” people wear are made by non-Jews. Rather, I’m saying that general apparel manufacturers wouldn’t make these clothes only for “yeshivish” people. This implies that many people other than “yeshivish” people wear this clothing. In fact, most “yeshivish” clothing is worn by people who aren’t even Jewish. So exactly what makes it “yeshivish” or even Jewish?