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Hi all,
Curious to hear your comments on this. I learnt in an “in town” Lakewood style yeshiva /Kollel for 7 yrs among other yeshivas I’ve spent time in. I realize the significane of wearing a hat and jacket. Although, after being in the working world for about 10 yrs I admit I don’t wear the uniform as frequently.
What I have trouble coming to turns with are these yeshivishe chevra that, you could almost say, don’t know where to draw the line.
As the Subject suggests I saw a father and son together in Chuck-E-Cheese playing air hockey. Both were wearing a hat and jacket. Is it comendable or down right ludacrious? I thought it looked ridiculous.
Last year, I was at the Bronx Zoo. It was Wednesday (needless to say) and very hot and crowded. I was dressed in a shirt and tie. I met my neighbor there. He was in a hat and jacket. On one hand I felt some pressure that maybe I should be dressed that way. On the other hand, again it seemed outlandish to be dressed like that in such weather.
When I think about it, I see before my eyes the picture of Reb Yaakov in the Art Scroll book wearing a white shirt with the sleeves rolled up (I think) at camp Agudah. Why wasn’t he wearing a hat and jacket???
A Yid dressed in Yiddishe levush, is to be highly commended. Especially considering the hot weather. And especially considering the downward spiral of our generation.
Why is it commendable to wear a hat and jacket unless your davening?
Heshy,
I think there’s more to your question than an academic “should they wear this”? You might need to sort out some personal questions as to why this irks you. If you are worried about “what will the Nochrim say”, you would have left home without your yalmukah. So it is not the “Jewish dress” per se, but the type of dress that stirs something in you, and makes you feel uncomfortable in some way. Think about it.
When you feel completely comfortable in your own skin, and completely serene in your own choice of dress, you will no longer feel irked by the choices of others.
A Yid dressed in Yiddishe levush, is to be highly commended
He is wearing the finest garments Eisav can make, from hat through the shoes. What exactly is Yiddeshe about it?
Bemused, a nochri doesn’t necessarily think a Yid looks like a fool just because he is wearing a yarmulke. But if it is 90 + degrees outside and he is in a black hat and suit, it might raise more than a few nochri eyebrows, and potentially stir up anti-Semitism. I can almost guarantee no Jew dressed this way in Moshe Rabbeinu’s time, as there was no such mode of dress for ANYONE in those days. It is possible that the downward spiral of this generation that Joseph mentioned, is in part precisely because of irrational and arbitrary customs of dress that not only make no sense, but can mamesh lead to heat stroke. I personally do not care if you or anyone else want to dress this way. It makes you feel more heilig, fine. It makes you focus more on Hashem, also fine. But when one thinks he or any other Jew is superior because of this levush, that is not fine. Much of the so-called Jewish levush was taken from the European Goyim, of yesteryear, anyway.So what happened to b’chukoseihem lo seileichu?
oomis, I’m not sure how your long comment was related to mine, so I don’t have a reply.
A Shavua Tov to you and everyone else.
oomis, Who cares what the nochrim think? Stop worrying about the nochri and start worrying about Hashem. The fact is the nochri will respect the Jew that dresses like a Jew in 90 + degree weather a heck of lot more than he will respect the Jew that dresses like a nochri in 90 + degree weather.
With Iran furitively working toward a nuclear weapon and the U.S. doing nothing about it. Wiht disaffection from Judaism continuing to rise, with a complete breakdown in traditional definitions of marriage and family literally on our doorsteps, this is what we worry about; the propriety of a Borsalino at Chucky Cheese, or the need for a black suit in the Bronx Zoo? I swear the lunatics have taken over the assylum.
Believe it or not, I heard from a chashuveh Lakewood Rosh Kollel and mechaber sfarim that the reason for a hat in the street was in order to cover the yarmulka! It was not recommended to advertise that you wore a yarmulka in the 40’s and 50’s in the USA, and in those times, only the ‘JDL’ types wore the yarmulka openly. Now that is is much more normal, and nobody thinks twice about it, maybe the reason for the hat has passed, especially since it makes one stand out even more, which is exactly what it was supposed to prevent.
I’ve heard bigger bubbe maisas.
Joseph what is he point of making yourself uncomfortable in 80 degree weather wearing a hat and jacket?
That dress was for Ashkenaz where it is always cold, now Yidden switched to real hot weather… why not wear slightly lighter dress?
Thanks, David
people here are saying that people are wearing their hat and jackets in hot weather. the people wearing them dont look at it this way. they dont say, oh its really hot today lets wear the hat and jacket. they wear it everyday. its the accepted uniform of a yeshiva guy. they are not trying to “out frum” anyone by wearing it. they feel the hat and jacket is just like wearing a white shirt and dark pants. whats the problem? unfortunately we see too many of our teens wearing the levush of the goyim, we should be thanful they are wearing the bachurs uniform.
it’s all the “levush” of the goyim.
i understand what you’re saying and whether or not i agree doesn’t matter. just wanted to point that out.
Is it considered non frum levush for a bachur or a bal bayit to wear a short sleeve white shirt with a tie instead of a long sleeve white shirt with a tie in 90 plus weather? I am talking about wearing a suit with a short sleeve white shirt with a tie, trousers and a hat as a compromise during sweltering weather. Is this acceptable frum levush?
“If you are worried about “what will the Nochrim say”, you would have left home without your yalmukah”
That is the part of your comment that prompted my reply. what has one thing to do with the other? The fact that a non-Jew might think a frum Jew dressed in a black hat and dark suit in the heat of the summer, playing ball outdoors looks like a heat stroke waiting to happen (and which makes me concerned about what they are thinking of us), has NOTHING to do with someone leaving home without a yarmulke. That was just a poor analogy. I do worry what non-Jews think of our actions and how stupid we might look to them, WHEN WE DON’T HAVE TO. Anyone normal, seeing a rebbie playing ball in his black suit in hot weather is going to think he looks inappropriately dressed for the weather and the activity. And when I say inappropriately dressed, I really mean, he looks silly. If for some reason, you do not agree that this is so, ask anyone on the street who does not dress that way (frum Jews, frei Jews, non-Jews) and they will tell you how uncomfortable that person looks to them, and what kind of a religion demands that someone dress in stifling hot clothing? Don’t you think that when you see Muslima women? Be honest.
And Moish is right, everything we (and the yeshivah boys) are wearing is the levush of the goyim. There were no Borsalino hats and dressy suits in the Midbar. The clothing we wear today is only “Jewish” because that is what we deem it to be in this day and time. RAMBAM dressed in a turban. amd certainly had no black suit. If what I wear is modest and covers me, it is Jewish attire.
Joseph, NO NON-JEW respects the Jews for dressing that way in the summer. It makes them physically uncomfortable to see us that way, and they think we are “morons.” That is a direct quote from my neighbor, who cannot fathom why she sees Jewish men walking around like that. I have no answer for her, because I think it is wrong, too. And during the Nine Days when they are dressed like that and not showering… THAT potentially causes a major chillul Hashem. We live in a goyishe country, and we DO have to have some sensitivity to the sensibilities and opinions of others whether we choose to like that or not. There are always kosher compromises, if one does not wish to remain stuck in the 19th century.
oomis,
Again, the point I was making to Heshy is unrelated to your comments. If you are interested in finding out what I was conveying to Heshy, reread my comment in full. No need to though; it was directed at Heshy, and unrelated to the subsequent dialogue in the thread.
oomis, Worry about what Hashem thinks we are doing, not what the shikker/nochri thinks. Are you concerned as well that the nochri thinks the pope is a moron for dressing in all those extraneous garments in the heat of the summer (or is it that you are only concerned that a nochri will think a heilige Yid is a moron, not the pope?)
“NO NON-JEW respects the Jews for dressing that way in the summer. It makes them physically uncomfortable to see us that way, and they think we are “morons.” That is a direct quote from my neighbor, who cannot fathom why she sees Jewish men walking around like that. I have no answer for her, because I think it is wrong, too. And during the Nine Days when they are dressed like that and not showering… THAT potentially causes a major chillul Hashem.”
i agree with joseph. who gives a flying hoot if a goy thinks we are morons for wearing our accepted uniform! it is rather pathedic you feel that its wrong for people to wear a hat and jacket in hot wheather. should women also atart dressing down in the summer c”v, because your neighbor thinks its ridiculus that our women must cover their elbow and knees etc etc? should we eat on Yom Kippur c”v because your neighbor finds it mind boggling that we fast an entire day?! i could go on and on
Imagine how Chassidim are shvitzing in their garb in 90 degrees. I remember in the Swiss Alps during August, the Vishnitzer Rebbe used to visit with his Chassidim every Summer.
Now the Swiss are not famouf or their sympathy to Jews and all the men were decked out in their Chassidish garb and very proud of it!
flatbush27: there is one difference between your examples & the subject under discussion here. wearing a hat & jacket (not when davening) is not halacha!
flatbush27: Jews are not supposed to stand out in the world or do anything to get attention. It doesnt say anywhere to wear a hat and jacket in 90 degree weather on a wednesday (If it was shabbos maybe I would agree), and if it helps keep a lower profile then shouldnt you try to fit in at least a bit? (Im not talking about jeans and a tshirt, but when its 90 degrees outside you dont need to wear a hat and jacket just to show your jewish.)
AOB there is an inyan for a ben torah to never walk in the street without a hat and jacket.
moish: “there is an inyan” – what does that mean? you have to, or it’s better than not, or what?
don’t ask me – i don’t do it. i used to, though. that’s what they told us when we went into 9th grade.
out it this way: you should. you’re not over on anything if you don’t, but they always told us “a ben torah doesn’t walk in the street without a hat and jacket.” no one ever got in TROUBLE for not not wearing it in the street. no one even got a look from a rebbe or anything. but it’s supposed to be a higher madrega.
i think i phrased that right.
moish: inyan isnt halcha
EVERYBODY: i never said anywhere they should wear their jacket in hot weather. i would not see anything wrong if they took it off. thats perfectly acceptable. but i also dont see a problem if they wear it. the chassidim wear their levush and the yeshivish have theirs. why does it bother people if they wear it? goyim probably think we look wierd wearing it on a cool day! chassidim wearing their long coats with a vest and a hat and litvish with their hats and jackets isnt ‘normal’ in their society so whether it be cool or hot they think we are wierd and thats not a chillul Hashem in any way! Putting on Tefilin in a packed airport terminal is in no way a Chillul Hashem when hundreds are looking at you funny!
aussie, nope it’s not. was just trying to defend the radicals a drop 😉
moish: okay, so that is a nicer way of dressing. but depending on what you are doing, there may be reason not to, & maybe that reason takes precendence over the nicer clothes. (not sure if that came out clearly. sorry.)
flatbush27: i don’t mind if other people want to dress like that. do what you want! the only decision i have to make is what i’m going to wear. and i’m a girl so i don’t have to deal with this 😀
so i’m not trying to convince people of anything, either way.
i’m just saying, your comparisons aren’t equatable – the cons of not wearing hat & jacket are completely different from those of not following halacha.
hey i haven’t worn a jacket in forever (whenever the last time i wore a suit was) and i don’t own a hat. so don’t ask me.
AOB, i don’t think they expected us to play basketball or go swimming in a hat and jacket.
(maybe they expected me to not play ball or swim altogether, but that’s a different story…)
If someone wants to wear a hat and jacket in 90+ degree weather, what do you care? There is nothing wrong not wearing it, you don’t and they do, so what? If you meet someone you know wearing a hat and jacket, it’s okay, maybe they’re used to it. I don’t know how hot a hat and jacket are, but it seems similar that if a non-Jew asks a frum girl what’s it like to only wear skirts, and cover their elbows and knees in 90+ degree weather, it’s like I don’t know. It’s normal, what’s it like not to?
There is a huge difference between men dressing in warm suits and hats in hot weather, and tzniusdig ladies’ clothing. Women can wear very lightweight material, and snoods, if they desire. The elbow and knee covering does not hinder them and hold in the heat the same way that BLACK suits do. There were bnei Torah throughout history who never owned a jacket and a hat (there were no such things in their day), and I would stack them up against any and all of today’s yeshivah bochurim any day. You are placing too much emphasis on the outside of the man, and not enough on the inside. Don’t judge a “kankan” by its cover. As to the pope remark, he does look ridiculous, but the difference is, he is revered by the Catholic goyim who populate this country and other countries. The non-Jewish world is still the majority.
I very much worry what Hashem thinks. I worry that He might think that we have created an incredible schism in Judaism, based on things that He never told us to do, and that we have made these tafeil things the ikkar of Yiddishkeit, while simultaneously alienating frum youth who might otherwise stay frum, were it not for these non-halachic issues of mode of dress (among other more serious issues). if you do not agree with me, fine, you may bury your head in the sand liek the other ostriches. But it is a fact that we never had so great a problem of teens off the derech as we do now, and that is at least partly due to this type of mentality that says that a Ben Torah (is not a Ben Torah unless he) wears a suit and black hat.
I would like to oppose many here: Wearing a white shirt and black/dress pants with a tie in the bronx zoo in 90+ weather is the levush of a yid NOT A NOCHRI!!!!!!!!
oomis, hit the nail on the head. as usual!
Joseph: if i said no, would it stop you from posting it?
Thanks, kapusta, but I am sure that many here are unable to agree with either of us. That is surely their prerogative, as it is mine, to feel as I do.
Joseph: I want to hear them
oomis, I’ve never understood it, thats like asking if a girl is pretty before asking about her middos or hashkafos for a shidduch. (which people seem to do anyway, and I’m not saying not to ask if shes pretty just don’t make it the first question.)
So we have kippas, talit, tefillin, tzitzit; to name a few items of religious significance. Have I left any out?
Where does a black hat, jacket, white shirt, fit in?
i know someone who was in a store in the mall shopping for a coat. she wanted a certain coat but they didn’t have her size. she asked the saleslady if they have it, she said no but pointed to a bright green coat and said-isn’t this nice….errrr sorry, and she got all embarrased, and said oh sorry i didn’t realize you guys are only allowed to wear black and no colors.
what i’m trying to say is that the goyim think wer’e crazy in a lot of ways not just with men in black and white. they see chassidim in the mall on chol hamoed with their streimels and white tights with 10 kids around them all matching clothes0-to them they look like aliens from mars! we are different then the goyim- but you know what? that’s what hashem wants from us that we SHOULD be different and we SHOULDN’T assimilate and be like them. we should feel good about our way of life and feel proud that we have purpose to our life. wer’e not llike the emptyheaded goyim who just eat out and laugh the whole day. we shouldn’t be embarrased or feel uncomfortable at all we should be PROUD.
hi100: Different does not mean we should be so noticed
I think Frum Yiddin can dress differently then the Goyim, but I think it is a big mistake to feel Superior and better. Hashem`s timing is perfect as we are in the beginning of the Omer Period, which is a time of self reflection and improvement. Yiddin have an opportunity to work and cultivate their Middos now. Hashem should help everyone in the derech that is appropriate for them.
Ames,
Hashem help us if we need a jacket to stay frum. Are our beliefs so fragile that we need to wear black felt hats in 90+ degree hat? A close friend of mine in Flatbush used to wear a black straw hat ( looked like a felt hat, just lightweight ) in hot weather until he was told it would veshtair shiduchim for his daughters.
“To address the hat/jacket in sweltering heat question, is it inconceivable that when a man loosens up, and removes the garments that he usually wears, that some of the standards he tries to live by stay home too?”
Yes, it is inconceivable. Standards should stay the same no matter what clothes the person is wearing. The person has the standards, not the clothing.
No Ames, I don’t think that a person who loosens up in his attire should be loosening up anything else. If that happens, his Yiddishkeit is not particularly strong, is it? Whether I am wearing casual attire or a ballgown, I have to adhere to my standards at all times. My son just went out to learn b’chavrusa before going to work later. He is wearing a shirt, sweater, casual pants, and casual loafers. He went to learn with a friend of his who is disenchanted and disenfranchised to a large degree. I guarantee you that the learning that they are doing together will be as meaningful as any that goes on in the black hat beis medrash. I further guarantee that my 22 year old son is as respectful, menschlech, and a good boy, when thus attired, as he is when he goes to Shul on Shabbos dressed in his beautiful (not necessarily black) suit. He just for the fourth year in a row gave the drosha in our Shul at the seudas neilas yom tov, and probably will for the third year give one of the shiurim on Tikkun Leil Shavuos.
If some of us can get over the “dress” issue, maybe we will understand each other a little better, and be able to dialogue, rather than one-up each other. For my part, I am going to try to understand that some frum people have the need to wear a uniform in order to keep their hashkafic mindset in a certain mode. I don’t have that same need, but I can see that it is very important to others. So, I guess if they don’t mind the sweltering heat or making other people physically uncomfortable looking at them shvitzing, it is not my business what they do. On the other hand, neither should those same people be looking at what we are wearing, and judging us for choosing NOT to get heat stroke, or ruin a serviceable suit while playing ball.
I think especially on chold hamoed a hat and jacket are very appropriate! people have a tendency to put others down when they can’t reach that level. GIve the guy credit and pray that one day u will be on that level.
As I have stated in another thread, being seen without a hat & jacket in ANY location is Bad For Shidduchim.
Of course you should wear it wherever you go, even a non-kosher restaurant (such as CC) on Pesach.
Chuck-E-Cheese? Isn’t that the place they serve non-Kosher food?
As for a hat and jacket being a mitzvah, I would like to see the source.
Furthermore, as for wearing a black hat and black jacket in 90 degree heat, that can be dangerous. There is a reason why white is worn in the summer.
People should focus on what’s inside more, that’s needed a lot more than what is on the outside.
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