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As a talmid of a Chasidic Yeshiva, I graduated high school with an academic degree fulfilling all regents requirements.
That’s nice. Problem is a huge percentage of Chassidish and Yeshivishe places do not fulfill Regents requirements.
The American education system is so overrated. All it does is get that proverbial foot in the door. Chasidim are killing it in business nowadays, so they must be doing something right.
Why is it a problem?
Yseribus: That isn’t a problem. That is a constitutional right. Chasidic parents have the right to choose to not secularly educate their children after eighth grade. See the U.S. Supreme Court decision in Yoder v. Wisconsin. That takes precedence over state laws, and Yoder overruled state law.
The more time spent on secular studies the less time there is available for Limud Torah, which is far more important. It is impossible to give a “public school equivalent education” PLUS a full Torah/Jewish education. There aren’t enough waking hours in a day for a child to have two such full curriculums.
Besides the fact that Yeshiva kids, even putting aside their Jewish education and knowledge, do better in secular studies than New York City public school kids.
Parents have the inherent right to choose how to educate their children. And they’re wise to choose Torah over evolution.
So choose to educate your children that way. But don’t ask for government funding (aka “mandated services”) if you don’t comply with state requirements.
Most Chassidim do not kill it in business, A few certainly do, but its a miniroity. Most are living in poverty.
Unfortunatly being a great learner does not get you a decent job in todays society ti support a large (or even a small) family
laskern: Don’t forget that the standard of livelihood required is bare minimum. “Kach hi darkah shel torah – pas b’melach tochal etc.” — Bread salt and water – if you have that, you have parnasah.
The Rambam writes that a typical Baal Habayis works 3 hours a day and learns 8. This is what a “working person” is. Three hours a day. 8 hours learning.
The Rambam writes that a typical Baal Habayis works 3 hours a day and learns 8. This is what a “working person” is. Three hours a day. 8 hours learning.
Unless you are a doctor, who can afford to live in Brooklyn working 3 hours a day, 18 hours a week, the rents are astronomical
Even a kid who went to a yeshiva that managed to avoid most secular studies isn’t all that worse off if he wants to enter a secular field. In terms of language, he can read four languages (Hebrew, Aramaic, Yiddish and English, from different families (two Aryan, two Semitic), which is a big asset in acquiring any language based skills. He has experience studying ancient texts, including and especially legal ones, in the original language with medieval commentaries in the original langauge (skills usually attempted in public schools only in the graduate school level). He is used to working independently. While he will have to do some work in some subjects, he’s starting with a humanities background that is quite rare today (though was common among the secular elite a few centuries ago).
Note that in the public school,s academics is hardly a full time focus (cf sports, clubs, social activities, etc.). Most subjects are serious stripped down and oversimplified (imagine studying science or the ‘hard” social sciences without having learned calculus and statistics, which are rarely taught before 12th grade – or trying to study foreign language and literature without knowing a foreign language).
A yeshiva student who was a success at learning Torah and decides to pursue a job that require secular advance education probably can manage to a GED in a few months, and some AP or CLEPs within a few years, and can then easily get into a college. Many students follow this route in the real world (e.g. home schoolers). If someone with an exotic background (yeshiva is sufficiently “weird” to qualify) shows up with a year or two of college credits from self-study, they can get into a good university.
I suspect the OTD Hasidim who complain they are stupid were just as bad off when they were frum, and rather than admit their own shortcomings are trying to blame their parents and teachers.
“But don’t ask for government funding (aka “mandated services”) if you don’t comply with state requirements.”
You can only receive the funding if you show you meet the requirements. I would post the link to the NYS DOE website, but links not allowed. Instead, I have copied and pasted from the site.
Mandated Services Aid
Mandated Services Aid (MSA) is a New York State funded reimbursement program for nonpublic schools. The schools receive reimbursement for the state mandates that they have met in the prior school year (July 1 to June 30). In order to receive reimbursement, the school must have met the requirements of the mandate and have documentation to support it. The reimbursement request, or claim, must be processed via our online system. A full listing of the mandates and a brief explanation of each one follows this introduction.
Many of the mandates are met by reporting information in a timely fashion to the Department itself. For example, the Basic Educational Data Systems (BEDS) report, which is due every October, has a twofold purpose for nonpublic schools: it fulfills the requirement of mandate number three and enables a school’s claim to be entered into the processing system for Mandated Services. Other mandates, such as Pupil Attendance Reporting (PAR) rely on the school providing the state information relative to the time and effort attributed to complying with the regulation.
Filing for Mandated Services is a voluntary process, requiring schools to keep abreast of the changes and notices so that they can properly comply. This can easily be done by having the Chief Financial Officer and MSA Contact keep a current email address on file in the State Education Data Reference File (SEDREF), and to check for updates weekly at the Nonpublic Schools web site.
Guidelines, Announcement of Aid and forms for a particular school year are generally released in June or July of that year, but are not due to the State until the following January. The opening of the MSA online system is dependent on the compilation of testing data and typically does not occur until mid November. Schools are encouraged to download the guidelines and forms as early as possible to review any changes that may have occurred from the prior year and to have their data ready to enter into the system. While paper claims are still accepted, we encourage schools to learn and use the online system for faster processing and monitoring. Please note that paper claims will need to be processed by Department staff and can not be entered until such time that the online system is open. Schools are expected to monitor the progress of their own claims once entered in the system.
Schools with questions on completing their claim are encouraged to first read the guidelines and then call the Office of Grants Management for assistance. Our goal is for all schools to file correctly and timely. When visiting the Mandated Services web page, venture on to the Recordkeeping section. It has a complete listing of material that a school should keep on hand for every claim, and it will help prepare a school in the event of a claim review.
If a school’s claim is flagged for a review, Department staff may ask for additional documentation to substantiate the claim. These reviews are based upon a risk based management approach that the office staff must conduct in response to an audit of the mandated services program by the New York State Comptroller. The goal of the review is not meant to be intrusive or to tell the administration how to run their school, but to ensure claims are filed accurately. A review may result in a loss, a gain, or no change at all in the expected reimbursement. Schools are expected to respond within a reasonable time frame to questions from staff, and are encouraged to ask follow-up questions if there is any confusion on what is being requested. Refusals or ignoring attempts by reviewers to ask questions will result in little progress; resolving issues promptly will result in more timely payments.
The Mandated Services Program currently has seventeen mandates available for reimbursement. After this introduction, we will be explaining these currently available mandates. As New York State revises its academic program with the Common Core Standards, this number may change. The Announcement of Aid document, normally released in June with the new Mandated Services Aid claim forms, always highlights any such changes. In turn, any additions, deletions or modifications will be updated here as well.
Questions regarding eligibility for Mandated Services or a particular mandate can be directed to the Office of Grants Management at 518-474-3936 or by email. A listing of the mandates which are currently available, as well as a brief summary of the mandate follows. By clicking on the underlined title of each mandate, more information concerning the reporting requirement, staff roles, and claim reimbursement can be found.
Mandates Currently Included in Mandated Services Reimbursement are:
1. Pupil Attendance Reporting (PAR): The daily recording of attendance for children in Kindergarten through twelfth grade.
2. English Language Arts and Math Assessments (ELA): State sponsored tests of students in grades 3-8 in the areas of language arts and mathematics. Schools contract with Regional Information Centers, or RICs, to have their student tests scanned, scored and results reported to SED. Schools must contract with a RIC to obtain the answer sheets, tests, and reporting services. Nonpublic schools must adhere to the required deadlines and follow the RIC’s conditions for acceptance of material in order to have their scores reported and reimbursed under the Mandated Services Program. Proof of mailing should be maintained by the school, as well as a record from the RIC of the students’ scores. Additional information about this and other elementary tests can be found at the Office of State Assessment.
3. Basic Educational Data Systems (BEDS): An annual report filed in October that details the K-12 enrollment, the composition of the faculty and staff, the encompassing public school districts of residence, and profiles of the student body in terms of economic levels, ethnicity, disability, and English speaking ability.
4. Regents Exams (RE): New York State high school level summative assessments in mathematics, language, English, history, science, and global studies. All Regents exams are given in June, and a limited number of Regents exams are given in August and January. All exams are approximately three hours, and require strict adherence to the protocol of ordering, storage, administration, proctoring, correction and submission of exams protocols. Schools must contract with a RIC for scoring and reporting services. High schools may only report the scores of those students who are enrolled in their particular school during the school year; all other principals must report their own students test results regardless of where the students take the test. More information regarding these tests can be found at the Office of State Assessment.
5. Regents Competency Tests (RCT): Achievement tests designed to assess basic proficiency in the areas of reading, writing, mathematics, science, and social studies for high school students with disabilities who entered grade 9 prior to 2011 – 2012 school year. These exams are offered in January, June and August. Additional information for these tests can be found at the Office of State Assessment.
6. Calculators (CE): The flat rate remuneration for either graphic or scientific calculators for students when purchased for use on the state assessments. Receipts and inventory records are required for payment.
7. Registration of High School (RHS): A one time mandate whereby a nonpublic high school meets the established criteria and successfully completes the review of the Office of Nonpublic School Services; once registered, a high school is allowed to confer Regents diplomas.
8. State School Immunization Program (SSIP): (For New York City, Rochester and Buffalo nonpublic schools only) In a school developed and enforced immunization program, pupil immunization records are collected, verified, completed and then sent on to a governing body (NYC Department of Health, or New York State Department of Health) by a required deadline. Remuneration is based upon the total number of participating students.
9. Documentation of Integration of Required Instruction in 7th and 8th Grade (DIRI): According to Section 100.4(2) of the Commissioner’s Regulations, nonpublic schools have the option to teach technology education, home and career skills, and library and information skills by integrating the standards for these subjects into other subject areas. Nonpublics must keep readily accessible documentation on hand to demonstrate how the blending of these three academic areas into core subjects has been accomplished for the students in these grades. A complete discussion of Section 100.4(2) can be found under the Program Requirement (Models for middle-level education programs) pages for grades five through eight.
10. Graduation Report for Nonpublic Schools (HSGR) grade 12 only: (Note: This report was previously called the High School Graduation Report, HSGR). Beginning in 2015-16, principals of nonpublic schools are responsible for reporting all students who are awarded a local or Regents diploma, Career Development & Occupational Studies Commencement Credentials or Skills & Achievement Commencement Credential in the Student Information Repository System (SIRS). Reporting must be completed and filed by required deadlines. Information about reporting is available on the Information Reporting Services website
11. Grade Four Science Test (GFST): This elementary level test is given in the spring of every school year, and reported to the New York State Education Department via the Regional Information Center (RIC). Schools must contract with a RIC to obtain the answer sheets, tests, scanning and reporting services. Nonpublic schools must adhere to the required deadlines and follow the RIC’s conditions for acceptance of material in order to have their scores reported and reimbursed under the Mandated Services Program. Proof of mailing should be maintained by the school, as well as a record from the RIC of the students’ scores. Reimbursement covers the costs of administering, correcting and scanning the exams. Additional information about this and other elementary tests can be found at the Office of State Assessment.
12. Expenditure for Travel Costs to Examination Storage Sites (TSS): If a school is unable to store exams in a secure, safe location within its institution, it will be required to pick up the secure exams being stored at a neutral site. All examinations included in the mandates are secure examinations. Schools should consult the NYSED website under the Office of Assessment Policy, Development and Administration in order to file an Approved Program of Test Storage Plan, and to obtain more information about the storage site their school would use.
13. New York State Scholarships for Academic Excellence Application (SAE): This mandate pertains to the necessary components of the submission process for the state funded award program available to graduating high school seniors. The Office of K-16 Initiatives and Access Programs establish the timelines and requirements for the award. The criteria that the school uses to select its nominees must be uniform, consistent and applicable to all students; published and made available to all seniors at the beginning of the school year. More information is available for schools about pre- collegiate funding from the Division of Higher Education.
14. Grade Eight Science Test (GEST): An intermediate level science test given in the spring which must be administered and reported to the New York State Education Department via the Regional Information Center (RIC). Schools must contract with a RIC to obtain the answer sheets, tests, scanning and reporting services. Nonpublic schools must adhere to the required deadlines and follow the RIC’s conditions for acceptance of material in order to have their scores reported and reimbursed under the Mandated Services Program. Proof of mailing should be maintained by the school, as well as a record from the RIC of the students’ scores. Reimbursement covers the costs of administering, correcting, and scanning the exams. Additional information about intermediate tests can be found at the Office of State Assessment.
Mandate 15: Currently unavailable.
Mandate 16: Currently unavailable.
17. Pesticide Neighbor Notification (PNN): The School Pesticide Neighbor Notification Law requires all schools to notify parents, faculty and interested parties prior to pesticide applications in instructional areas, administrative buildings and grounds, playgrounds and athletic fields. In addition to having a school employee act as the school pesticide representative, schools must establish written pesticide notification procedures as outlined in Section 155.24 of the Commissioner’s Regulations.
18. New York State English as a Second Language Achievement Test (NYSESLAT): This exam is the only approved exam to determine proficiency in the English language when testing limited English proficient (LEP) students. It must be administered according to the rules, regulations and guidelines issued by the State Education Department, and all required documentation must be kept by the school. Schools must contract with a RIC to obtain answer sheets, scanning and scoring services; therefore, nonpublics must adhere to the required deadlines and follow the RIC’s conditions for acceptance of materials. Proof of mailing should be maintained. If teachers from the public school district perform the teacher functions for the NYSESLAT exam, schools may only claim the Administrative and Support functions for reimbursement. More information about NYSESLAT testing can be found under English as a Second Language Testing web pages.
19. RIC and Scoring Center: All elementary, intermediate, and high school level exams reimbursed through the Mandated Services Program must be scanned and scored at a Regional Information Center. Mandatory costs are reimbursable. Schools must retain receipts and have them available upon request.
“The Rambam writes that a typical Baal Habayis works 3 hours a day and learns 8. This is what a “working person” is. Three hours a day. 8 hours learning.”
Joseph,
You love to admonish others and noted the number of “waking hours in a day” but do you learn for at least eight hours on a daily basis? If you think the vast amount of time you waste trolling the web in your various persona is learning, then you’re deluding yourself.
The rambam himself worked way more then 3 hours a day.
Describe what a “typical” ball habayis means?
How does one k ow if they are typical?
Do i ask a “typical “rov?ZD: “Unless you are a doctor, who can afford to live in Brooklyn working 3 hours a day, 18 hours a week, the rents are astronomical”
You missed the other half: Don’t forget that the standard of livelihood required is bare minimum. “Kach hi darkah shel torah – pas b’melach tochal etc.” — Bread salt and water – if you have that, you have parnasah.
Nowhere does it say a big apartment.
Joseph,
How many hours do you actually spend learning every day and how do you fit the 3 wives and 27 children you claim to have into a tiny apartment?
“— Bread salt and water – if you have that, you have parnasah.”
hang on a sec while I type that up for the tuition committee…
The state does not pay for our education, we have no reason to listen to them or do any more than the law requires.
I think joseph wants to open up a tent city to accommodate those who are putting in 3 hours of work on a daily basis. Who nerds to work 40 hours a week when u can get away with living in a tent and work only 15 to 18 hrs a week.
laskern: I never thought that what Chazal tell us in Pirkei Avos have become inapplicable in our times.
Would you guys call it a “problem” that the other 49 states might not be meeting Regents requirements because NY is the only state that has it?
Joseph, be realistic. Don’t compare those times with current times. It says
הכהן אשר יהי’ בימים ההם the kohen who serves in that time. The Haflah says in sefer Panim Yafos that you cannot question from one time to another.
We currently compete with the Joneses.Actually many have to compete with the hipsters of Williamsburg who can afford to pay more and drive up the rents. Soon they will move to Borough park and Flatbush
Joseph,
You love bringing sources from the Rambam and Pirkei Avos in order to criticize others but you’re so reluctant to confirm that you’re not guilty of the same. Why is that?
Do you learn at least 8 hours per day? Do you live on bread, salt and water in a tiny apartment?
The more time spent on secular studies the less time there is available for Limud Torah, which is far more important. It is impossible to give a “public school equivalent education” PLUS a full Torah/Jewish education. There aren’t enough waking hours in a day for a child to have two such full curriculums.
The problem is that secular education has gone way beyond teaching the basics. It’s been perverted into a means of indoctrinating political and social viewpoints. Teaching the essentials of communication and quantitative skills, with a bit of history and geography, wouldn’t take that much time.
Dovidbt days:
The problem is that secular education has gone way beyond teaching the basics. It’s been perverted into a means of indoctrinating political and social viewpoints. Teaching the essentials of communication and quantitative skills, with a bit of history and geography, wouldn’t take that much time.
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Granted its gone teaching thr basics. Buy is that a reason to cut it all out to the degree thay it is today?
Find a medium.
The reason why the government did this supposed investigation is precisely because they didnt find a medium. They simply cut it all out .(for all intensive purposes).DovidBT, The yeshiva can set up a curriculum of study.
Exactly. That’s why there should be no issue with integrating a Torah and secular education.
August 17, 2018 6:32 pm at 6:32 pm#1576232REPLY
DovidBTParticipant
DovidBT, The yeshiva can set up a curriculum of study.Exactly. That’s why there should be no issue with integrating a Torah and secular education.
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But they aren’t integrating, and thats precisely the problem.
Instead of integrating ,they are killing the messenger and cutting it out entirely.But they aren’t integrating, and that’s precisely the problem.
Instead of integrating, they are killing the messenger and cutting it out entirely.What’s the reason? Is it thought that a minimum of secular education will be a slippery slope to increased secular education, inadequate Torah education, and assimilation?
Yes, yes and yes
Joseph writes, “Chasidic parents have the right to choose to not secularly educate their children after eighth grade.” What about up until eighth grade? Do the yeshivas that are refusing to allow in DOE inspectors provide adequate secular studies? I’m talking about math, English, and science, even if we leave out culturally sensitive topics like evolution.
Akuperma, many chassidic men in Brooklyn don’t understand enough English that I can hold a simple conversation with them. Do you really think they can write English?
Yes, yes and yes
In that case, a possible solution is to have an objective way of ensuring that the proportion of secular to Torah studies remains constrained. For example, a comprehensive annual exam, or series of exams, both written and oral, that’s 10% secular and 90% Torah.
What’s the big deal about the Regents? You New Yorkers are so weird.
But, in all honesty, one area where I might really disagree with Joseph here as about English.
If somebody lives in America, they need to learn the language. Hispanic immigrants, Asian immigrants, Chassidim, I don’t care. They need to learn to speak English if they want to live in this country.
I’ll wait with anticipation for one of our posters like CTLaw or CharlieHall to come in and say that illegals should be granted amnesty even if they don’t speak English, but for Chassidim not to speak English it’s a huge problem and chillul Hashem.
@NevilleChaimBerlin
“I’ll wait with anticipation for one of our posters like CTLaw or CharlieHall to come in and say that illegals should be granted amnesty even if they don’t speak English, but for Chassidim not to speak English it’s a huge problem and chillul Hashem.”
I have no idea why you would think I’d link amnesty for those who entered the USA illegally and being able to speak English.
#1 I am NOT in favor of blanket amnesty for those here illegally. I am in favor of those who have sought asylum to have their cases adjudicated before summarily being deported.
#2 I am of the belief that all permanently residing in mainland USA have a working command of the English language for safety reasons. That Hasid in Boro Park may be able to function in his community, but in a time of emergency he should be able to communicate with government emergency personnel. The same goes for those who speak other languages.
#3 We have the unusual situation with Puerto Ricans. They are American citizens who learn and function in Spanish in the public schools on the island. BUT, when they come to live permanently on the mainland they should become proficient in English for the same safety reasons.Tomorrow, I am appearing in Juvenile Court. It is a pro bono case where I am representing a child born here to Haitian Parents. It is the third attempt to try the case. The first two times the court arranged for French translators (since that is the official language of Haiti.). BUT the parents don’t speak French, they speak an island creole….a mic of French, African and Spanish. It has taken 3 months to get a translator certified by the courts for the dialect, and the child has languished in foster care.
The parents have been here since 1981 on emergency visas and have had more than ample time to learn English.I may be liberal compared to most in the CR, but that doesn’t mean i’m far left wing.
As for Charlie Hall, I haven’t seen him post here of elsewhere in about 8 months. I hope he is well.
I’m going to take another POV in this discussion
Everyone seems to take it as a given that chassidish families are at a disadvantage over PS kids. Is there any proof?
Frankly, my first experiences with PS kids in college was not very impressive.
It was 25 years ago. I entered Brooklyn college after several years in Yeshiva. The course was a summer intensive science class that was the first of many required for health related professions (known as premed courses). 70% failed out . Another 15% technically passed but scored low C so no way they would be able to use the class on an admissions application. The class started with 100. The three Yeshiva boys were in the top 15%. Granted there were no chassidim. My point is that my first experience with public school kids was none to impresssive.
I’ve always wondered what percentage ended up on welfare.mentsch, I don’t think people were actually claiming the Chassidim should have gone to Public School chas v’shalom. Usually the people in the CR being critical of frum schools are those who advocate for more MO Day School systems.
It’s just an age-old CR debate. One side thinks it’s worth taking on a little bit more risk of kids going off the derech in order to pursue a better education for them. The other side disagrees.
“Usually the people in the CR being critical of frum schools are those who advocate for more MO Day School systems.”
This debate is not more MO, necessarily. Rather it is about even having the education of a regular Litvish Yeshiva, so that they are not functionally illiterate in English and they are able to speak clearly (even with an accent).
MDG
my wifes grandparents lived in this country for 50 years and could both barely speak english. I barely understood them when they spoke english. Yet they both provided for their families.
I’m just saying that bf we allow govt interference in jewish school systems, do we have any proof they are worse off financially?
And even if the answer is yes, Joseph would argue who cares about finances when their neshamas are at stake? and I would agree with him
BC frankly, I am a professional and enjoy the parnasah but wish my soul hadn’t been exposed as much as it was during my MO upbringing and college years.“Rather it is about even having the education of a regular Litvish Yeshiva, so that they are not functionally illiterate in English and they are able to speak clearly (even with an accent).”
If I were confident that that were all the debate was about, I would agree. Like I said before, they need to speak English. Nobody has any business being an American citizen if they speak no English and have no plans on learning it.
From 50 years ago to today, prices have skyrocketed, especially housing and chinuch. No comparison.
I wasn’t pushing for govt interference, but rather a real education in the basics. I’ve met some chasidim who were quite sharp & well put together and OTOH some who were poorly educated and had difficulty speaking English. While much of that is dependent on the person (some are just sharper than others), having basic skills should be universal.
“do we have any proof they are worse off financially?”
Statistically saying, YES. You can find outliers in the data, but that does not speak for the majority.Mentsch, if Hashem exposed you to it it is for a reason. Perhaps you are supposed to uplift sparks of kedusha.
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