hashkofa help!

The Midrash says Avraham Avinu viewing the stars from the back of the rakia.

Chazal, and certainly the rishonim, recognize that the sun lights the moon.

What are you concerned about? That the scientists say the sun goes around the earth?

The entire foundation of modern physics was disproved yesterday. The scientists know even less than the doctors.

But i thought the earth travels around the sun?

Yes, and?

There are multiple ways to approach. I’ll list two:

1: Metaphysical (what peacemaker is saying) that it doesn’t really means sky, etc. Admittedly, why Chazal would agree to Science on a spiritual question is beyond me.

2: Observer status: Chazal were discribing what happened as they saw it. As is viewed from someone on the earth, the sun goes around and under the earth. That has nothing to do with what happens in the greater Universe (in which the sun circles the Galacitc core, etc.). This makes sense as a viewpoint once you realize that all movement is relative anyway.

PBA, check the thread, “roll over Einstein”. Nobody disproved nothin’

Is Chazal always relaying the Torah’s science? This Gemara clearly proves that, at least on some level, they held of the scientists of their time.

I heard a shiur from Rav Belsky on this gemara.

His pshat was that the machlokes was if the sun goes around the earth (Chachmei Umos HaOlam) or if the earth rotates daily (Chachmei Yisroel). Of course, we now know that the Chachmei Yisroel are indeed correct.

What the gemara means that the sun goes above the Rakiah according to the Chachmei Yisroel, is that if the earth is rotating, nightime occurs when the earth rotates away from the sun. So the sun is “on top” of the sky, because we are below.

The Rabbeinu Avraham ben haRambam says this shows the intellectual honesty of chazal, that they were able to admit they were wrong (i found this really good mussar, because I find this hard to do myself!).

Great! So what do you need us for? I thought your question was how does any of this apply once the earth goes around the sun.

gavra: Using that argument, you can argue they could be wrong about Torah too C”V.

gavra: Using that argument, you can argue they could be wrong about Torah too C”V.

That is where Eilu V’Eilu kicks in, which is a Torah concept only.

The Chosid Yaavatz (Ohr Hachaim) says that Chazal knew science form a Mesroah that goes back all the way to the Neviim, who knew it from Hashem, without any effort at all.

Particularly interesting is a statement on this topic in the Aruch Hashulchan (EH 13). Quote: “I will tell you a great principle: Chazal, besides their holiness and wisdom in the Torah, were also greater scholars in the natural sciences those savants (“mischakmim”) who would argue against their pure words. And someone who disagrees with them testifies about himself that he does not believe in Torah she bal peh, even though he would be embarrassed to admit it outright.” Drashos Chasam Sofer Vol. 1 p.100b says Our prophets and sages know all the sciences much better than the scientists even though all they learn is Torah. This is because the One Who created nature informs our sages of the correct facts. This is what amazes the Nations, as it says, Am navon v’chacham hagoy hagodol hazeh! An identical interpretation to that of the Chasam Sofer’s explanation Am navon v’chacham is found in the Ramak (Sefer HapPardes 13:6) regarding astronomy.

im not seeing a problem saying that chazal were wrong. and no it casts no aspersions on their knowledge of torah much in the same way i would think no less of a physician who got something wrong in the area of botany. i would still trust that doctor with my life much in the same way i still trust chazal on all the torah they taught and learned even though i believe that they were flat out wrong about certain scientific observations.

Shmoel: Abelleh is absolutely correct that the majority of Rishonim assume that Chazal relied on the science of their times. And true, he is asking a very legitimate question on the Maharal.

Who is this majority and how many of the ones that we usually Pasken from?

The Gemara in Pesachim is obviously cryptic, since anyone looking up in the sky will see the sun going down, not up. Perhaps the question was how to look at it: is the sun going away from us — above, beyond our reach — or is it merely going down, as the physical fact is.

Chazal did not know everything. Some Tanoim were able to derive scientific facts from Pesukim, as was the case with Reb Yehoshua ben Chananya and the Greek philosopher, and the sending of broken musical instruments to Egypt, and the consulting a doctor or sitting out on a farm for a year. However, all over Shas you can find Braysos about scientific facts. You’ll notice that the only science accepted by Chazal are Mesoras and Braysos. Rav Popa is often Medayek science from Mishnos. Chazal make it clear when their information is from the outside. Bottom line is, we accept their words unquestingly just like they accepted the words of the Tanaaim unquestingly.

Chazal did not know everything. Some Tanoim were able to derive scientific facts from Pesukim, as was the case with Reb Yehoshua ben Chananya and the Greek philosopher, and…

What I wrote lacks in coherence. It should have said, Chazal did not know everything. Some Tanoim were able to derive scientific facts from Pesukim, as was the case with Reb Yehoshua ben Chananya and the Greek philosopher. However it is evident that they did not know everything from…

As I was taught, the Torah speaks to man in the idiom he best understands. We are unaware of the motion of the globe as it spins on its axis, even though it is moving at a tremendous speed, and taking us with it.

Consequently, when we see the sun disappearing in the west, we don’t think of ourselves as turning away from the sun; rather, we interpret what we see to mean that the sun is moving away from us, and “sinking below the horizon.”

Similarly, we call sunset “shekiyah” — sinking — even though the sun is by no means sinking into anywhere. It stays right where is, and WE gradually rotate away from it.

Nonetheless, we use the term shekiyah, which means, from the word “to sink.” This doesn’t imply that everyone who uses the term “shekiyah” is claiming that the sun rotates around the earth, and therefore sinks below the horizon each day; it simply means that this is how we, with our limited five senses, interpret what we see each day.

Chazal have their “information” straight from the Manufacturer, Who certainly knows His product inside out, not from their five senses.

Hashem knows our limitations, and speaks to us, through the Torah, in terms which everyone can grasp easily.

There are endless examples of such; I’m sure other readers can add to the list, but right now, what comes to mind are the expressions “Hashamayim mesaprim ke’vod Keil.”

No one thinks that the shamayim are actually “speaking.”

Another instance: when we read the possuk in Shemos 19:4 about how Hashem transported Am Yisroel “al kanfei neshorim” — does anyone take this literally, to mean there were wings with feathers, etc?

Of course not; it is just a way of bringing it down to a level that we can understand within the limitations of being flesh and blood.

There are probably better examples, but I’m not so good at pessukim. Maybe some of you can add better ones.

Coltuv – Shekiah/ sunset is irrelevant to this. The Gemara is talking about the sun changing direction AFTER sunset and traveling behind the sky instead of on the opposite side of the world.

HaLeivi – These Geonim/Rishonim are all talking about this Gemora specifically.

Even if we say this is all an allegory/mystical/metaphysical interpretation, the fact remains that far too many people read Gemaros like this literally. Either it’s literal and Chazal relied on the science of their times and therefore are inaccurate/need to be reinterpreted, or it’s metaphysical and not relevant to anything physical. It cannot be both metaphysical and still accurately portray reality as it is read.

This sugya has nothing to do with whether the sun orbits the earth or the earth orbits the sun. It’s about whether the sun at night is over Australia, or whether it doubles-back behind a “firmament” above our heads, hidden from view. This is not a matter of scientific theories. It is an established fact that the sun is over Australia when it is night in Eretz Yisroel. We don’t need to reinterpret Chazal – as Rav Yehudah HaNasi conceded, Chazal were mistaken about where the sun goes at night. Peacemaker, do you really think that scientists are one day going to discover that the sun really does go behind the sky at night and not over Australia?

Besides, virtually all the Rishonim confirmed Rav Yehudah HaNasi’s statement that the Chachmei Yisrael were wrong about this (and they did not believe that it is to be interpreted mystically/ metaphorically). Are you really saying that Rav Yehudah HaNasi and all the Rishonim were wrong?

No, I’m not mistaken. And my questions were not addressed; in fact, I did not ask any questions.

Have you actually looked at all at the Gemara, and at the Rishonim and Acharonim? The Chachmei Yisrael held that the sun goes above the rakia at night (in Bava Basra there is a machlokes as to whether the sun turns to the side and travels along the northern border of the world, or whether it turns upwards and passes over our heads). The Chachmei HaUmos, on the other hand, said that the sun goes beneath the earth at night (which, as we know today, is correct). Rav Yehudah HaNasi says that the Chachmei HaUmos seem to be correct, because (in his view) rivers steam at night because they are heated by the sun from below.

Yissacher: What is the rakia? (Please define it in detail.)

Regarding the idea that the scientists in the Gemorah were correct, see the Shitah Mekubetzes I referenced above.