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Is it right/wrong for an erliche chareidishe Yid to take money from the medinah, while the medinah is fighting frumkeit day in and day out, the most recent example being gezeiras hagiyus. As the Brisker Rov ZTL put it, why take money for Torah, from an institution whose goal is to uproot Torah? Even those not living in Eretz Yisroel are faced with this question, as there are so many programs, sponsored by the medinah, to get Yidden to Eretz Yisroel (like birthright).
You make a good case against accepting, even legally entitled, funding from the Zionist government. And, indeed, as you indicated groups like Brisk, Satmar, the Eidah HaChareidus and others, in fact, refuse to accept government money they’re legally entitled to under Zionist law — such as government funding for Yeshivos. Which is why those aforementioned kehilos are prolific fundraisers in Chutz La’aretz for their Yeshivos which decline all government funding.
On the other hand, kehilos affiliated with Agudas Yisroel and the like do accept government funding. And, in another sense, logically it makes sense since the members of their kehilos pay taxes to the government that is used to fund educational institutions. They figure why should they not accept money from the system when they’re putting money into the system.
If the “erliche chareidishe Yid” sees no problem with serving in the IDF, and is willing to obey government laws even if they conflict with what his Rav/Rebbe holds – why would there be a shailoh?
(1)If you aren’t makpid on 100% Glatt Yosher when it comes to taking money from the American government then the you should have no issue with taking from the isreali government.
(2) Once you take money to a certain degree you are implicitly giving them legitimacy in FINANCIAL areas.
Another huge problem with accepting government money is that it gives them an opening to try to shove their treif ideas down Yeshivos throughts in an attempt to force their secular and anti-Torah priorities on the Tinokos Shel Beis Rabban in our Yeshivos and Beis Yaakovs.
“why take money for Torah, from an institution whose goal is to uproot Torah”
interesting
smerel: There are several differences. First, programs that benefit American hareidim are programs that benefit all Americans (but it happens that many hareidim qualify), whereas many of the Zionist programs are targetted towards hareidim (e.g. the government doesn’t offer to fund all relgious institutions, including Muslim and Christians ones, only Jewish ones). This leads to a second factor, the American government isn’t offering money in order to induce Chareidim to support government policies, and it doesn’t turn around and point to Chareidim recipients and say “see, the Chareidim support the American government”. The zionists use Chareidim acceptance of money as a “hecksher” to argue that all of zionism (including many things we aren’t allowed to discuss on YWN) are acceptable to the Torah world.
Here’s a different way to look at it- Torah Mosdos take money from the government in order to survive. So it is a way to be marbitz Torah. What a zechus for the government- the country certainly needs it. Like it or not, they are supporting Torah and those who study it.
By the way, it goes a lot further than money for yeshivos and the necessity for mass fund-raising. It includes medical care from the kuppot and National Insurance. I once met a woman in a clinic who could not continue with her treatment for lack of funds. I don’t know if this is widely done- not having medical and hospital coverage, assistance for kids with special needs, etc. is a very big deal.
About accepting money and therefore being compelled to teach anti-Torah curriculum- this is a universal problem, remember the girls’ school threatened with closure in England because they did not teach a certain accepted liberal value? At least in E”Y there is a concept of chinuch atzmai, the government actually recognizes that these schools are outside the main school system and pretty much can set their own curriculum. Every so often there is a struggle over this, but the status quo has remained and B”H the children in Chadarim and BYs are not learning anything treif. The girls BY schools, for instance, do not do bagriyot, but have their own recognized testing system. Can’t say the same, for example, for schools in NYS whose students take Regents exams.akuperma:
My point is that if you aren’t so frum about the D’Oyraases involved in taking money from the American Government in a less than 100% glatt yosher manner then it’s not your place to worry about haskafah issues involved in taking money from the Israeli government.
The U.S. Supreme Court ruled, in Yoder v. Wisconsin, that religious schools in the US can completely end all secular/non-religious curriculum after 8th grade, should they so choose.
[R]emember the girls’ school threatened with closure in England
because they did not teach a certain accepted liberal value?I don’t think that had anything to do with being government-funded;
it was about the government recognizing them as a valid school.I don’t know Random3x…but either way, the government was trying to force its agenda. In Israel, there are established parallel tracks of schools, that are recognized by the government but are allowed to set their own curriculum. Yes, there was talk in the last coalition to change that, but B”H the status quo has remained. It seems they are less at risk than schools elsewhere, where liberal “values” have become the new religion. Just trying to point out that Joseph’s fear, although theoretically valid, is B”H not a fact on the ground in Eretz Yisroel.
Winnie,
Are you saying that the Israeli government asserts no control over the curriculum of Chareidi schools, despite providing the schools with funding, and that the government does not set any minimum secular subjects (i.e. math, science, foreign language, etc.) that must be taught in Chareidi Yeshivos/BYs?
Once they assert any minimums (science, math) it is easy for the Israeli Department of Education (or whether they’re called) to modify the required curriculum to include things like evolution, teaching respect for different lifestyles, minimum number of hours for secular studies, English, etc.
There is a set curriculum in the girls’ schools, but they still have independent say over it, and as I said, give parallel testing on that curriculum. The boys’ chadarim do what they want- some have more, some have less, some have none. The chadarim generally get less money than the BYs, AFAIK.
My memory of the details are fuzzy- so I googled it. This was a big issue for Yair Lapid et al who wanted to force the LIBA- the core curriculum on the chareidi schools- i.e. give 11 hours of secular studies/week, or else lose your funding. A law was passed, was not enforced and was repealed when the chareidim joined the government after the next round of elections, because they did not want government interference in their school system, even in those schools that did teach the minimum secular studies- an issue they are very passionate about.
This is what I found in Haaretz, from March 2017 on an article about why the Chareidi schools don’t take the standardized tests:
““We won’t allow any procedure in which the Education Ministry is involved,” Gafni said, feeling free to speak on the record. “It’s our educational independence – we decide, not the Education Ministry. We decided this back in the days of Ben-Gurion, who assured our educational independence. We won’t accept dictates, and we won’t accept the Education Ministry’s oversight.”…When it comes to funding, the Independent Education System is far from independent – the state finances it to the tune of 1.2 billion shekels ($326 million) annually.”So yes, like so many things in E”Y, this defies logic- chareidi schools get funded (some, not all) but don’t follow the core.
Does the medina give money to overtly Meshichist Chabad schools? 😉
If so, is it really right for the rest of us to also take money from the state, as it’s sort of like legitimizing Chabad meshichism?
[Disclaimer: years from now, this post will look really silly out of context]
Someone who does not believe in the Medina should not take money from it nor should the Medina give it to him. This includes social benefits.
As for setting curriculum, with the Chareidi sector growing the Medina cannot afford a mass of people who refuse to work. Every state has a basic curriculum to prepare students for the job market. This, in fact, is the highest form of tzedaka. A man who chooses not to work and is not producing Torah on a high level (the Chief Rabbanate can give exams) should be drafted and ten sent into job training.One should not take not only money, but services as well from the medina if you belive its evil
And that includes NO POLICE, NO PUBLIC BUSES or TRAMS, No protection of any kind, No passports. Do not drive on the roads either, as that belongs to the state
Avi K- re setting curriculum. Yes, the secular majority is worried about the time when there will be a chareidi majority who are undereducated, and are worried that the economy and highly technical industries will collapse. To solve this, if they could get away with it, they would force a core curriculum on the Chareidi schools.
Counterargument: 1. force has never worked. Chareidi schools give varying amounts of secular subjects- just looking at the numerous chadarim in my neighborhood, it ranges from 0 to several hours a day, without any force. But if you force it, likely as not, those who now give secular studies will stop in protest.
2. I do not think that the term “mass of people who refuse to work” is accurate. Unless you define work as being in hi-tech or being a lawyer, etc. Many chareidim work- it may even be a majority- they work as educators, in kashrus, as business owners, and in many areas that service the chareidi community. There are many training courses for those who need to brush up on their skills. For those who want a job outside of the traditional chareidi job market, something funny happens. Even when qualified, suddenly no one wants to hire them. The same chilonim who are screaming that chareidim should leave Yeshiva and go to work, are the ones who don’t want to hire those who do want to work in these fields.
3. What has prevented many men from going out to work when they are no longer producing in their learning, or when they need the parnassa, is that work has been linked to army service. For the chareidi bochur/young avreich, going to the army is a spiritual non-starter. Get rid of that condition, and many more would join the workforce, as you see among chareidim in the US. I believe the Tal Law saw the fallacy in linking work to army service, after a certain age, but the Tal Law no longer exists.
4. Do you really think that the Yeshiva world will hold by exams set by the Chief Rabbinate to determine who is a talmid chochom?I must say, WinnieThePooh, your posts are from the most well reasoned and well written posts on the CR.
I don’t hold by daas mamoin. If you want to take the tziyoni money and give them zechusim for supporting torah go for it. If you hold their gelt is not kosher don’t take it. shoyn. There doesn’t need to be a right answer.
WTP,
“Here’s a different way to look at it- Torah Mosdos take money from the government in order to survive. So it is a way to be marbitz Torah. What a zechus for the government- the country certainly needs it. Like it or not, they are supporting Torah and those who study it.”
Good point. I think that is what Ponevezh Rav Rav Kehanman ZTL believed. He allowed the Yeshiva to fly the (Zionist!) Israeli flag on Yom Haatzmaut – not because he believed in Zionism, rather, out of respect to the “greatest Tomech Torah” which he benefited greatly.
Furthermore, in essence many believed that of course it is “better” not to receive support from the secular non-religious – but easier said than done. Satmar and Kenoim have a couple of hundred families in their EY mosdos, so it is no big deal to sustain itself on support from abroad. (I think The Tashbar Talumd Torah in Bnei Braq does not take any money, as per Chazon Ish that Tinokos Shel Beis Rabbon should rather be taught Al TeHaros haKodesh”).
Story goes Ponevezh Rav once visited or met the Brisk Rosh Yeshiva Rav Berel Soloveitchik (who opposed taking money) and of course the discussion was about Ponevezh taking money etc; the Ponevezh Rav asked him: can I please see your Yeshiva dorm? He replied we have none – bacharim of the yeshiva have their own “diros”, he asked him can I see the Yeshivas dining room/kitchen, he replied they eat/cook in their own diros apartment. Finally he asked him how many staff members does he have? He replied “a few”. Ponevezh Rav answered – Nu, Given your expenses I would either not take…
Winnie,
1. You are half correct. Tying social benefits to going into job training is also a form of force but it can work. The same goes for not supporting schools that don’t teach subjects that form the base for acquiring job skills.
2. Teachers and kashrut supervisors make very low salaries. As for discrimination, it is in part due to the chillulei Hashem of some of the Chareidim (in particular the Pelegniks). Refusal to go into the army is also a very sore point. However, as the Chareidi sector grows employers will decide that they cannot afford prejudices (Ludwig von Mises, in his book on National Socialism, Omnipotent Government pointed out that it took Nazi terror to get Germans, including antisemites, to boycott Jewish businesses. Moreover, in a capitalist economy groups which suffer discrimination can start their own businesses, as Milton Friedman pointed out regarding the Jews in America in Capitalism and Freedom.
3. What about the obligation to protect Am Yisrael?
4. I don’t know. However, it is time that laws should be enforced one way or another. For example, slackers could lose all social benefits. If they do not believe in the Medina the Medina should not believe in them.Gaon, who says that the PR did not believe in Zionism?
4.When I posed this question to an Adam Gadol here in Yerushalayim a few decades back, he answered that the Chachmei haTorah accepted Herod’s refurbishing of the Beis Hamikdash, despite that fact that he was a rosho. We don’t find that anyone at that time disqualified his “contributions” because it was “treifene gelt.”
BTW, I don’t want to burst anyone’s bubble, but those who think that the “true” Chareidi groups are not accepting zionist money are living in a dreamworld. While they are probably not accepting funds directly from the education ministry budget, there are scores of line-items in the national budget under various “innocuous” names and part of other ministries’ budgets that are quietly accepted. Sometimes funds are routed through the municipal budget (which some claim isn’t so treif) or assorted “foundations.” Bottom line: let no one be excessively naive about who really accepts or doesn’t accept govt. funding.
Brisk might be an exception to the above. In fact, Reb Avrohom Yehoshua commented a short while back on the Eida/Peleg protests: “sure, the ‘gezeiras ha’gi’us… gi’us kesafim.’ (Gius=army conscription; it’s also used to refer to “fundraising.”)
The original prohibition of taking zionist money starting about 120 years back was specifically for chinuch, for schools, and not other “favors,” like health care, buses, electricity, trash collection, etc.
A very great number of Gedolei Torah in the past and in the present allow accepting these funds from the medinah. If you are part of a group that doesn’t, that’s fine, so don’t. Just make sure you’re not being 2-faced about it, and accepting monies from other govt. sources, while hollering “gevald” at the other “lenient” ones who follow their manhigim who do openly allow it.The Rosh Yeshiva of Ponovitch said if protests outside the yeshiva against them taking money and voting hadn’t materialized, he’d have hired protesters against the Yeshiva’s policy himself, to show that it is only a b’dieved.
Joseph,
“The Rosh Yeshiva of Ponovitch”Which “RY”? Rav Shach?
Avi,
“Gaon, who says that the PR did not believe in Zionism?”The point was his reasoning to fly the flag, as Israel being the greatest ‘Tomech Torah ever.
Whether he believed in the Zionist movement or not is another discussion, in any case, he wouldn’t demonstrate it it by flying a flag.
Daas Yochid- thanks for the compliment. If only you knew how many times I re-read my posts before posting, delete full paragraphs or posts that I don’t think are to the point or necessary, rewrite, and then hope even after I post that I won’t be attacked or my words taken the wrong way…
Avi K-
1. there is so much history of distrust, of distortion of people’s intentions, of stereotyping on both sides.
Chareidim have long memories of the early days when the secular Zionists pushed their agenda, pulled people away from Yiddishkeit and tried to interfere with mosdos chinuch. Things have changed, secular motives have changed, but the suspicion is still there- and anything that smacks of interfering by the secularists, especially when it comes to the chinuch system, will put the chareidim on the defensive.
2. Yes, many of the jobs that chareidim take have low salaries (hmm… yeshivas budgets are small, partly because they receive less government funding compared to public government schools, and so they can’t afford to pay their Rebbeim large salaries…Although I think Rebbeim do get paid more than BY teachers, and their salaries are linked to Misrad Hachinuch scales, so you can say that all teachers get paid low salaries). Part of it is idealism, or of wanting to stay within a frum Torah-oriented environment even when working, and partly do to lack of skills in other areas. But that does not mean they are lazy or shirking responsibility or expecting hand-outs.
In terms of discrimination in hiring, as I said in point 1, there is a long history of distrust on both sides, and chilonim are scared of chareidim whom they really don’t understand. Peleg’s actions of course does not help. I can’t say I blame them for not hiring chareidim, I’m just pointing out the obstacles to those who are searching for jobs.
3. As discussed over and over again on this issue, the lomdei Torah feel that they are protecting Am Yisroel. Just as there are many jobs in the army- and you wouldn’t say that the base cook is doing less of a duty than the combat soldier, so too the lomdei Torah have an important job. The problem is that the secular public does not recognize the importance of this job. Besides, if we were honest, the army really does not want (or need) a mass amount of chareidim serving, it would be a logistical nightmare!
4. Despite the rhetoric often spread on this forum, the world is not divided into Zionists and anti-Zionists. There are those who don’t believe in the shitas of the medina, but love E”Y and understand that this is the government they got and they have to live with for the meanwhile, as long as the galus continues. They are not traitors. They vote for the parties that they feel will best represent their interests. They pay taxes, they pay VAT on the clothing and food etc they buy for their large families, and they are as deserving of social benefits as any other citizen.Winnie,
1. If they think that their Torah is a protection why did those in Ofakim run for the hills when missiles flew. For that matter, even before the first Gulf War started the airport was filled with chutznikim hightailing it back (one was called up to the reserves and sent to Saudi Arabia – I heard this from his chevruta).
2. Why don’t they says the tefilla for the Medina or at least the misheberach forthe soldiers. Do they not want Hashem to give us a wise government? Do they not want the soldiers to come back in one piece?
3. I agree that those who are really learning should have some kind of deferment. What about learning in an IDF bet midrash in a hesder-type arrangement and saying that it is for the merit of the troops? Why not become chaplains and give shurim? For that matter, why not use their analytical skills in military intelligence (and also acquire hi-tech skills)? However, not all are really learning. There is, in fact, a major problem with “shabanikim” , kids from Hareidi background who cannot learn all day but have no alternative within the community. Would it not be much better for them to go into the army, get out their aggressions in a socially acceptable manner and the get jobs after they have cooled off?Avi K,
2. Why don’t they says the tefilla for the Medina or at least the misheberach forthe soldiers. Do they not want Hashem to give us a wise government? Do they not want the soldiers to come back in one piece?
I don’t think this is fair. One can care about the welfare of the soldiers and pray for the government, yet still feel uncomfortable with making structural changes to the tefilla, or adding moadim to the calendar.
3. I agree that those who are really learning should have some kind of deferment. What about learning in an IDF bet midrash in a hesder-type arrangement and saying that it is for the merit of the troops? Why not become chaplains and give shurim?
In theory, I think that’s a wonderful idea. I think the chareidim, however, distrust the army’s intentions – they see the army as desiring to assimilate them, to change their lifestyles. And, frankly, the army has done little to ameliorate those concerns, and a lot to amplify them.
Would it not be much better for them to go into the army, get out their aggressions in a socially acceptable manner and the get jobs after they have cooled off?
Aggression is not something that can be vented. Acting out on anger only leads to more anger, it does not dissipate it. A change of attitude is required.
While I dont have any hard core proof of this, I suspect at least some Charedim would actually like to go into the IDF, but communal pressures are stopping them. They say more and more are going and I suspect if the communal pressure stopped even more would go
Avi- I really did not want to take this thread off topic, especially since this had been dealt with on so many other threads, but since we are having a respectful discussion, I hope everyone does not mind that I answer you.
1. I can’t answer for everyone’s level of emuna and extent of hishtadlus they have to do. I do know that the during the Gulf War, people in Bnai Brak who were definitely in line of fire did not run to sealed rooms because they were assured by… (was it Rav Shach Z”TL? or rav Kanievsky?) that the Torah of Bnei Brak would protect them. And they were protected.
2. I think it’s because saying it is a political message, and because there are problems with adding tefillos that are not part of the mesora. But plenty of shuls end davening with “Acheinu kol bais yisroel” and a kappitel tehillim, usually more frequently level during an active war/military operation.
3. Yes, not all are learning, and it would be great (in my opinion) if those who are not making it- shabavnikim and also regular people who are not cut out for full time learning- had other options within the system. Theoretically, it would be better for boys at risk or trouble makers to get out their aggression in the army, learn some discipline- including being forced to attend davening- that is what function Nachal Hareidi serves (Nahal Hareidi is a misnomer- practically, it’s mostly for Chareidi drop-outs and dati leumi who want something more sheltered than the hesder units). But there is a real spiritual risk of going to the army for a typical Hareidi boy- you can’t deny it- and so for most boys, it would not be better for them to go.
In terms of how to do the learning- you can’t compare someone learning in a hesder program (5 years combined learning and army) to someone learning full time for 10-20-30 + years. There are those who learn just for the sake of learning, there are those who learn to teach. There was in the past some capacity in the army to be a Rav Chayal, I think it was called- I know there were chareidi boys who joined and served in that way, and taught Torah as part of their service. I doubt it exists today- the army is not encouraging spread of Torah among the recruits (remember the furor over some officer who encouraged his soldiers to daven or say tehillim before they went out?). As far as using their analytical skills for military intelligence- great idea, for those who don’t want/can’t continue their Torah studies and are looking for jobs. But for those who want to learn- let them learn, without strings!One more point, the chareidi community is dynamic and change needs to come from within, if and when it is appropriate, not when outsiders dictate it.
There is absolutely no change the Chareidi community needs to make in this area other than to further distance ourselves from state bodies.
The Israeli government is the single largest supporter of Torah in the world and possibly in the history of galus. That’s a fact.
What I never understood is the individuals who claim that taking money is assur, then use the socialist healthcare of the government.
If I take money from the medina doesn’t that mean they now have less money?
For some reason people cant understand that taking indirect money is the same thing as taking direct money.
using the Police or Public transport is indirect money
Even R’ Amram Blau, ztl, possibly the greatest opponent of Zionism, accepted the legitimacy of using basic government services — utilities, streets, etc. — as he said, someone being held in prison however much he opposes the legitimacy of prison authorities is totally entitled to stay alive by eating the food they serve him. I think he also accepted the need to obey traffic laws and the like. What he opposed was accepting any money for education, which gave them the power to dictate curriculum. And this the Bennet Education Ministry has increasingly been doing, sending in “supervisors” with the power to fire teachers and cut off school funding who’ve been forbidding teaching things like the works of the six days of Creation or the 39 malachos of Shabbos as being too confusing for young children, as if generations of centuries of Jewish children have grown up confused. This is a very deliberate plan resulting from the Trachtenberg Commission of some years ago who realized that if unchecked the Chareidim are soon going to make up a very large proportion of the Jewish population and the best way to stop this is by seizing control of their minds at the youngest ages and eliminating as much chinuch for emuna as they can.
IMHO we need to strengthen our emuna that Hashem is behind all of this and testing us to see who really believes in Him, similar to the 80% of the Jews who didn’t want to leave Mitzraim and were killed during the plague of darkness. There’s a lot more to be said about this, but these are some main points.In other words he wanted the benefits of a modern society like good roads, public transportation, but was unwilling to accept the societal burdens of a modern society
Yidden lived in Eretz Yisroel before the Zionists-come-lately’s came and seized control. The Yidden from the pre-Zionist period, and anyone who joined their communities anytime thereafter, have the right to live in Eretz Yisroel, walk the streets, drive, use electric, the airport, etc., all of which existed before the Zionists. The Zionists having seized them and made improvements to them doesn’t force others to stop using the streets or whatever.
Not that he necessarily wanted them but recognized that some roads and social services were necessary to survive. But he will unwilling to allow “modern society” to destroy (as it was trying very hard to do) the traditional Torah values that had enabled the Jewish people to maintain its independence and identity — as Hashem’s people — for generations and centuries and not be assimilated into the nations around them. I don’t know if he’d heard of Mark Twain’s famous quote — The Egyptian, the Babylonian, and the Persian rose, filled the planet with sound and splendor, then faded to dream-stuff and passed away; the Greek and the Roman followed, and made a vast noise, and they are gone; other peoples have sprung up and held their torch high for a time, but it burned out, and they sit in twilight now, or have vanished. The Jew saw them all, beat them all, and is now what he always was, exhibiting no decadence, no infirmities of age, no weakening of his parts, no slowing of his energies, no dulling of his alert and aggressive mind. All things are mortal but the Jew; all other forces pass, but he remains. What is the secret of his immortality?” — but R’ Amram certainly understood the “secret” that Twain was talking about and was fighting to preserve it. And so are many others today.
As soon as the Chazon Ish heard that R’ Amram was being held in prison (for protesting chilul Shabbos) he insisted on going to visit him immediately to give him support. The charges against him were eventually dropped because the government didn’t want to give him his day in court, where they were very much afraid of what he would say.
There are multiple ways in which ostensibly anti-tzionist, anti-medinah elements of the chareidi tzibur can rationalize acceptance of certain government payment streams or services. Its not hypocreicy, its pragmatism. One can follow a principled position to the extent practical in contemporary society but make concessions where necessary. As Joseph said, the basic infrastructue in EY has existed in one form or another since the time of Avraham avinu, albeit having been updated with government funds. Its always a balancing of interests.
Re OP: what does zionism, or anti-Zionism rather, have to do with being chassidish in general…? This always confused me greatly and has always been something of a פלא by me…last time I checked, chassidishkeit b’klal had everything to do with learning, living, and spreading Toras HaChassidus to the entire world, as we see in the known story of the בעש״ט when he went to the chamber of Moshiach and asked אימתי קאתי מר? Moshiach didn’t reply “when you stop Zionism” he replied, “כשהפצת מעינותיך חוצה״….so maybe it’s time to get back to the basics and start focusing on what being a CHASSIDISHE yid means…you don’t have to be a Zionist R”L…but let’s not make a טפל the עיקר and forget why we’re b’davka chassidim in the first place my friend.
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