Hashkafah on watching the Super Bowl

Yes
What did Josef say That made you accuse him of failing to judge favorably

Briefly –
My comment was this:
“even you must admit that your advance condemning and expectations of horrible behavior is wrong al pi halacha”

in response to his saying this, BEFORE any comments were made:
“so expect a litany of excuses here why this aveira is okay and why this aveira (pritzus and whole list of worse things) “really” isn’t such an aveira. Or that one day a year is okay to take a break from not doing aveiros.”

I have been taught that expecting bad things from yidden in advance is halachically wrong. Until you had a problem with it it never occurred to me there was a differing opinion. Hope that answers your question.

umm, I don’t think we have clarity. im not sure where you came up with the beginning of your post, about motzei shem rah. I said I was talking about expecting bad things from a group of frum jews who have not done anything yet. joseph said (and I believe I am paraphrasing without altering it) that some frum yidden will now come forward and say bad things that are knegged halacha (rationalizations about the superbowl).

THIS is jumping to a conclusion, regardless how sure you are, that yidden will sin. he judged them infavorably, accusing them (although we don’t know specifically which ones, but Yidden nonetheless) of being sinners without a limud zchus that this year they might be different. there is no room to say he was standing up for Halacha in the face of evil, no evil had been done except in his negative expectation of members of klal Yisroel.

I know you think im wrong, and you were able to to reach far to get there. But that wasn’t the case ar hand. According ro someone familiar with halacha i was correct.

According to you is there anything wrong with the following statement.
I know for sure today some yiden will speak lashon hara

Not sure what it means I reached far
I am familiar with halacha. I know you are wrong based on what you have presented.
The only difference between my position and the anonymous source you are quoting is that I have explained where I’m coming from and how I reached my conclusion as opposed to just declaring.
Other than that I guess it’s a machlokes.
But once again, once there are different opinions, you need to judge Josef favorably that he did nothing wrong with making his post.

zahavasdad,

“If you can learn all day without breaks, then you should not be bittual torah for it, but for those of us not on that madreiga of the Choftez Chaim or other gedoli yisroel we need to pick our battles”

You have moved the goalposts (pun intended). First, nobody here who has objected to watching the Super Bowl has done so on the basis of bitul Torah. The basis is the pritzus inherent in an event that purposefully tries to push the boundaries of what even the hedonistic secular American culture finds acceptable. And whether it is possible to partake safely in any part of such an event (by trying to skip the commercials, halftime, etc).

Putting aside the Half-time show, The argument against watching sports is Bittual torah, not Prizus (Many football teams do not have cheerleaders (The big teams like the Giants, Packers, Steelers and Patriots do NOT have cheerleaders ) and the half time show is not shown on tv

And if you go to other sports like Baseball , hockey or Basketball there are no cheerleaders (I dont think soccer has either) Its all about the Bittual Torah

klugeryid,

“but i would contend that as the posters here are anonymous, it is not the same as casting aspersions on a person or defined group”

The problem with that is that this is a frum Jewish Web site, so “anonymous” defaults to “frum Jews.”

“however i keep falling back on the position that since there is a bening [benign?] way to view his comment, she should have done so at least according to her logic and worldview”

I don’t follow from Syag’s post that she holds one is required to search the galaxy for a limud zechus on every comment made under the sun. She didn’t like Joseph’s assertion that a group of Jews were beyond redemption and would surely sin. Your contention at first seemed to be that Joseph was referring to irredeemable sinners. But that is circular reasoning and makes no sense. Irredeemable sinners are irredeemable sinners. Why does that need to be said? You also said that the CR is not a definable group of Jews. So I wrote what I did above. And I’m not sure at all that it’s ok to cast aspersions on an undefined group of Jews.

Syag
No I’m totally serious. Isn’t that like the simplest form of judging favorably??
That he holds like a differing legitimate opinion in halacha?

What do you consider judging favorably?

“She didn’t like Joseph’s assertion that a group of Jews were beyond redemption and would surely sin.”
👍🏻
shkoyach

ח”ח פתיחה, עשין אות ו, בהגהה
וכל שגן לפי מה שמצוי בעוונותינו הרבים בשבת קודש אחר סעודה שלישית, שיש כמה כיתות אנשים, הלומדי תורה מסתמא משיחין בדברי אלקים חיים –ושארי אנשים” מסתמא!!” משיחין בענין הבלי העולם. ובוודאי מתגנדר על לשונם דברי לשה”ר והוללות וליצנות. אם כן מי שפורש מהבעלי תורה והוללות ומטה אזנו לחברה הרעה הזאת כדי לשמור מהם סיפוריהם ההבלים עובר על מצוות עשה זו לבד מה שכובר על לא תהיה אחרי רבים לראות… ע”ש

Do you see what he did here?
He spoke negatively about a future activity, based on normal observation of his surroundings, piling on לאו after לאו without stopping to maybe be דן לכף זכות those people who are going to the schmooze group because ”we are not the Chazon ish we can’t be expected to learn all day.
Casting aspersions on regular jews.
Seeing negative before it takes place.

I’d really love to know who this anonymous halacha knower is and what he based his decision on.
I know he is clearly arguing on the Chafetz Chaim

@Syag
So, I am someone familiar with this Halacha. Now that i’ve introduced myself here goes.
The Mitzva of “btzedek tishpot” is not a universal rule.
By all accounts it applies to someone who you know is tzaddik who you see doing something which seems, yes seems, wrong. And we are Mechuyav in that scenario to not judge critically but to either reconcile it with a good interpretation or leave it as “i dont know”.
More so, if it is undeniable that a misdeed was committed, still we must judge favorably by saying, surely after the sin he has remorse and is not a person who sins, v’ein tzaddik b’olam …. shelo yecheta. as we know “haroeh T”CH sheasa aveira b’layla, al tiharher acharav, shebivadai asa teshuva”.
Also not an argument, is that when one sees a rasha doing something that can be either good or bad… YOU SHALL JUDGE HIM LEKAF CHOV! this is agreed by all the poskim.

The confusion revolves around a beinoni, someone [like most of us frum people] who ‘try’ to abstain from aveiros but unfortunately nevertheless fall many times. From the Pirush Meshnayos Lerambam, and from the rav, in avos, and others, it seems that there is no chiyuv to judge such a person favorably, although it is a middas chassidus to do so.
The Chafetz Chaim however, in his hilchos lashon hara, in the intro where he discusses that someone who speaks lashon hara transgresses the mitzva of betzedek tishpot, explains that this is a misreading of those aforementioned sefarim.
The Chafetz chaim puts forth a strong argument that one is MECHUYAV D’ORAYSA to judge a beinoni favorably. And he explains that the aforementioned sefarim were referring not to someone who YOU KNOW IS A BEINONI but rather to a stranger, who you do not know, and therefore dont know even if he is a beinoni, Maybe he’s a rasha?
Such a person there is no chiyuv to judge favorably. Nevertheless it is virtuous (middas chassidus) to judge him favorably.

Therefore. Being that most of us on the coffee room do not know each other, there is no chiyuv “dan Lekaf Zechus” – L’kulo alama.
Furthermore, Joseph saying that there is a tendency to rationalize aveiros isnt his own statement, but the baalei mussar, from the poskim, from the gemara, from Tanach;
“ain adam roeh nigei atzmo” , “darko shel ish yashar b’einav” ect.

and as an aside, there is a misunderstanding out there that “yiddden dont judge”.
My belief is that that idea has permeated into our psyche from the Goyim.
OF COURSE YIDDEN JUDGE! We constantly calculate and judge! its not possible not to judge, its an inherent trait that Hashem gave us for our safety!
It tells us to be wary of people that seem threatening, to not let our guard down around people with mannerisms that exude harmful intent, to not give our money to every scammer who calls us, and to not confuse a leopard for a house cat!
But we judge in a manner prescribed by the torah, allowing us to listen to our feelings but to lead with our mind. Those who say “dont judge me”…. their the ones we usually have to be most careful of.

klugeryid,

“What are you even talking about?”

Joseph’s post with my interlinear comments:

People [specifically those who post in the CR, as he makes clear in later responses] rationalize all sorts of aveiros [I have no objection to this statement]; so expect a litany of excuses here [in the CR, he is telling us what the CR participants specifically are going to do] why this aveira [viewing awful pritzus] is okay and why this aveira (pritzus and whole list of worse things [!!!]) “really” isn’t such an aveira [i.e., expect the people on the CR to justify some of the worst aveiros people can do]. Or that one day a year is okay to take a break from not doing aveiros [not even twist things around to say it’s not a sin, just straight up say that sinning is fine].

These are powerfully negative things to say, and it’s not a leap at all to posit that someone who actually espouses such things would be beyond redemption. However, nobody in the CR actually did the things he said to expect. This isn’t even an issue of dan l’kaf zechus.

chas
thanks i wouldnt have the strength to type all that

@kluger @syag @avrom
Great job kluger, that choftz chaim is a great example of being realistic, lets face it people what joseph said is correct, people rationalize aveiros all the time, and they do it for watching stuff like the super bowl too, in fact many people who wouldnt watch a movie sometimes get sucked [ baavonoseinu harabim] into watching that too, and somehow it never gets turned off in time…
A person i know just came over to me telling me that he was horrified, that although he was aware that they were going to watch the superbowl, he took it for granted that they would shut it for the half time… long story short-they didnt, and all the people there who would never do such a thing, maybe they looked away, but ain apitruphus…….

chash,

“people rationalize aveiros all the time, and they do it for watching stuff like the super bowl too, in fact…”

“A person i know just came over to me telling me that he was horrified, that although he was aware that they were going to watch the superbowl, he took it for granted that they would shut it for the half time…”

I agree with everything you wrote in your post. It’s quite different in tone and even substance from what Joseph wrote.

Avram
Did you read the piece I quoted from the Chafetz Chaim?
If you substitute schmoozing between mincha and Mariv for watching the Superbowl it is indistinguishable from Josefs comment.
So According to you syag would take exception to the Chafetz Chaim. Nice.
And no. I didn’t get ”hung up ” on A colloquial reference. That was seemingly her issue. When it was shown that that didn’t apply, it was clarified to another issue which also was off base as shown by the Chafetz Chaim and gemorah that I brought.
I think they very much directly apply to show that such action as Josef did is not m s r

So it is About דן לכף זכות?
I think you are wrong on either count and I have sources for both so it makes no difference to me.
So I don’t think it’s sensible to accuse of of changing it to something that works for me.

It probably would have been helpful to the conversation, had you actually responded to my posts and maybe called me out when I switched the conversation instead of silently watching from the sidelines, but whatever works for you is good

Syag I think you may have missed this

Syag I asked there two questions
Still haven’t received a response

1) Syag
No I’m totally serious. Isn’t that like the simplest form of judging favorably??
That he holds like a differing legitimate opinion in halacha?

What do you consider judging favorably?

2) According to you is there anything wrong with the following statement.
I know for sure today some yiden will speak lashon hara

I don’t see why Joseph’s statement should be interpreted as
referring specifically to people who watched the Super Bowl.

Seriously you know the costumes are going to be an issue so find something else to do for 30 minutes. I wanted to hear [the singers, who are female] so I took the tablet into the kitchen, and while it was facing away from me

I don’t think most authorities are okay with that, either.

Good point. I should’ve thought of that.

I hear, probably she is disgusted by seeing the grotesque costumes and activities they preform while singing.
(lest one get the wrong idea from my comments, I neither watched or listened to the game or the half time shows, but news of what goes on, gets around.)

klugeryid –

Without getting involved in the personal fight, I think there is an important point to be made.

You said, “Did you read the piece I quoted from the Chafetz Chaim?
If you substitute schmoozing between mincha and Mariv for watching the Superbowl it is indistinguishable from Josefs comment.”

Here is the quote from the Chofetz Chaim:
ח”ח פתיחה, עשין אות ו, בהגהה
וכל שגן לפי מה שמצוי בעוונותינו הרבים בשבת קודש אחר סעודה שלישית, שיש כמה כיתות אנשים, הלומדי תורה מסתמא משיחין בדברי אלקים חיים –ושארי אנשים” מסתמא!!” משיחין בענין הבלי העולם. ובוודאי מתגנדר על לשונם דברי לשה”ר והוללות וליצנות. אם כן מי שפורש מהבעלי תורה והוללות ומטה אזנו לחברה הרעה הזאת כדי לשמור מהם סיפוריהם ההבלים עובר על מצוות עשה זו לבד מה שכובר על לא תהיה אחרי רבים לראות… ע”ש

Joseph said, “People rationalize all sorts of aveiros; so expect a litany of excuses here why this aveira is okay and why this aveira (pritzus and whole list of worse things) “really” isn’t such an aveira. Or that one day a year is okay to take a break from not doing aveiros.”

There is a world of difference between the two. The Chofetz Chaim was saying לתועלת that a person must be aware of what goes on in the various groups so that he will know how important it is to steer clear of the wrong crowd.

Joseph’s comment appears to be a cynical indictment of any number of people with no apparent תועלת.

Of course there’s a תועלת. To forewarn the uninitiated reader who may have arrived here by happenstance (i.e. via Google) or is an infrequent guest here unaware of the dynamics, that there are regulars who frequent here as posters expressing views and rationalizations that are Keneged HaTorah.

Being forewarned is being forearmed. Without being so aware one may r”l mistakenly assume that notable number of frum Yidden may hold such values antithetical to the Torah; especially given the brand name of this site.