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As I’m considering the options for ????? many ????? questions arise. 1. Does Hashem really want me to spend most of my day, and talents in making money? Aside from ????? and therapies, most occupations are not accomplishing anything lasting. I know I’m not being realistic, but I still have a hard time accepting the fact that after all the years of success that I’ve had ??????? ????? ????, and spending my time wisely, that I know have to spend time on ??? ?????.
2. Does anyone have any comments about the ??????? that one faces in a secular workplace? What are the situations that arise, and the solutions?
Is THAT why everyone goes into either teaching or PT/OT? lol
Don’t feel bad about going to work. Work is a wonderful thing, it is not ??? ?????. Read what Avos d’Rebbi Nasan has to say (11:1) about work:
????? ???????? ???? ??? ????? ????, ???? ?? ??????, ???? ?? ??????, ??? ?????? ?????
???? ?? ?????? ????, ???? ???? ??? ???? ?? ?????? ??? ??? ??? ???? ?? ??????
??? ?????? ???? ?????, ?? ?????? ???? ?????, ?????, (???? ?) “??? ???? ????? ????? ?? ??????, ???? ?????? ??? ?? ?????
??? ????? ????, ???? ???? ???? ????? ?????? ?? ?????, ????? ???? ??? ???? ????? ??????? ???? ?????. ????, ??? ??? ?? ????? ??? ??? ?????, ????? ??? ??? ?? ?? ????, ??? ?? ???? ?? ???? ???? ???? ???? ??? ???? ?????? ???? ?????. ??? ?? ??? ???? ????? ????? ??? ?????, ?? ?? ?? ????? ?? ???? ?? ???? ?????, ???? ??? ???? ????? ?? ?????
??? ?????? ????, ????? ??? ?? ??? ????? ?? ???, ????? ?? ????, ??? ???? ?? ???? ???? ??? ??? ?????, ????? ??? ??? ?? ?? ?????, ??? ???? ??? ???????, ??????? ????? ???? ????? ???? ?? ????? ????. ?? ??? ??? ??? ?? ???
??? ????? ?? ????? ????, ?? ??? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ?? ???? ?????. ?????, (?????? ?) “??????? ??? ??? ?????? ??????”, ???? “??? ?? ??? ???? ????
??? ????? ????, ?? ????? ???? ??? ?? ???? ?????? ?? ????? ?? ???? ?????, ?????, (???? ??) “???? ?? ???? ?????? ?????
??? ????? ?? ????? ????, ?? ???? ?? ????? ?????, ?? ????, ?? ?? ?? ??? ???? ?? ??? ????, ??? ?????? ??, ????? “??? ???? ????? ????? ?? ??????”. ??? ????? ???? ????? ?? ??????, ????? ?? ?? ??? ?? ????? ?? ???? ?????, ??? ?????? ???
? ????? ????, ??? ??? ?? ??? ???? ?????, ?????, (?????? ??) “????? ????? ?? ????”. ??? ???? ?????? ????, ??? ????? ???? ?? ???? ??? ???, ?? ???? ?? ??? ???? ?????. ??? ???? ?? ??? ??? ??? ??? ????? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ??? ???? ???? ??? – ???? ?? ??? ???? ?????
1. According to Avot 2:2, all Torah and no work will end up being worth nothing. Same with all work and no Torah. So the ideal is clearly to work part-time, enough to support yourself but to give yourself time to devote to Torah and mitzvot.
2. Some professions demand long hours, while others are more flexible and are easier to do part-time. Consider acquiring a skill that will allow you to be an independent contractor or start your own practice. I know someone who learned how to hang wallpaper in three days and then went on to be his own boss and work whatever hours he wanted for several decades, making a decent living. A lot of things probably fall into this category –web design, plumbing, doulas, etc.
3. Working with secular Jews and gentiles presents tremendous opportunities for Kiddush Hashem. Most secular Jews don’t think very highly of frum Jews, and many gentiles are especially anti-Semitic when it comes to the Orthodox. If you do a good job and smile (see Avot again!), people will begin to look more fondly on frum Jews and Torah Judaism in general. If you spend enough time with secular Jews, you may end up being the main factor influencing a secular Jew to make teshuvah.
4. Check out this quote by Rabbi Pinchas Eliyahu Horowitz of Vilna (Sefer HaBris):
Also, such a person can be confident that he will not miss even a single day of his service of G-d, since his means of support is always at hand, and his sustenance is available in his dwelling and his own city. He will not lie down at night without having eaten, because a tradesman is never without sustenance, nor will he need to travel to faraway places in other lands to seek his sustenance. For when travelling, by necessity a person must be neglectful of the service of G-d, as is well known; there is no way to turn aside and focus on Torah and prayer with concentration when one is away from his place and has set out on the road.
[work and Torah learning]
[of Torah]Sitting and learning all day is the ideal. “Talmud Torah Kneged Kulam.” Chazal say, one word of Torah is higher than an entire lifetime of doing these Mitzvos. Chazal often mention that Toroso Umnoso is the ideal, that we do nothing all day but learn. Nowadays poskim say that we cannot reach that level, but clearly the closer the better. Also, Shulchan Aruch Hilchos Talmud Torah, in the Shach, says that nowadays learning all day is the ideal, and that if someone has the ability to do it, he should. The Shach adds that regarding learning all day in general, nowadays we cannot reach our potential in learning the way the Rambam etc. did, since we are not on that level. Therefore, we should learn all day if we can.
The Rambam writes that a “working person” is someone who learns 8 hours a day and works 3. Not works 9am to 5pm.
Csar: RaMBaM does not say that. He gives such a person as an example. There is a difference.
Ibmzr: To add to what yitayningwut said, check RaMBaM Hilchos Talmud Torah 3:11-12. 11 speaks about tremendous maalos of being self-supporting, and 12 gives mussar to remind you to still put full effort into your Torah. As with everything else a Jew does, the ikkar is to do it all l’shem shamayim and if you do something l’shem shamayim it should be done well and make you proud to offer it to the ribbono shel olam.
Csar, regarding
The Rambam writes that a “working person” is someone who learns 8 hours a day and works 3. Not works 9am to 5pm.
How do you reconcile the fact that he worked for the Sultan for many hours and then saw patients at his home, exhausted by the end of the day per his letters. This seems like more than 3 hours. He might not have been able to say no to the Sultan or the sick patients waiting for him.
Do you think that in any century a typical person could possibly make a living working for 3 hours a day?
Do you know the source for the Rambam quote?
The Sultan didn’t need to see his doctor for multiple hours every day.
The workplace, even frum workplaces, is not a place for a good Jewish boy. We have to be there, granted; we have to make a living for our families – which is a Mitzvah in itself – but we need to realize the price we pay for those necessities.
There is a story in the mussar seforim, about a man who had a premonition that next year’s crops would be poisoned, so that whoever would eat it would become insane. He didn’t; know what to do — if he would eat the crops he’d become insane, but if he does not eat the crops, the whole world will be insane except him, and being the only normal one in an insane world is just as bad as being insane. Warning people about the crops is useless because nobody would believe him anyway. So he went ot the village wise man who told him, “You have to eat the crops. You’re right – that being the only normal person in an insane world is as bad as being insane. Plus it will drive you crazy anyway. But here’s what you do:
“Tie a string around your finger to remind yourself constantly that you have eaten from the crops and you are insane. Being insane is bad, but in this case you have no choice. However, for the rest of the world, much worse than being insane is the fact that they will think they’re normal. Being insane is bad, but being insane thinking you’re normal is much worse. So tie a string around your finger which will always remind you that you are insane. You’ll be insane, but at least you’ll know you’re insane. Everyone else will think they’re normal, so you’ll be much much better off than the rest.”
The nimshal is, there’s nothing wrong with going to work, and often it may even be a necessity. But to spend the gift of life that Hashem gives us for such a short time in this world selling cars or programming computers or whatever we need to do to make a living, is insane. It may be necessary, but it’s still insane. We have so little to live in this world (we should all live to 120 years, but compared to eternity in the afterlife, 120 years is nothing), and its our only chance to collect Torah and Mitzvos — how crazy is it to busy ourselves with other things??
But we have to? OK, we have to. At the very least, let us realize that we do so out of necessity and that making a living necessitates our leading a life which, when you consider what we’re on this world for and the opportunities that exist ONLY while we are here, is insane. Let’s at least realize that.
For those who learn all day, they may not need to tie strings around their fingers, but, unfortunately, in the materialistic and confused world that we live in, they need posts such as this one, to constantly remind them that their lives are very, very normal, sane, and healthy.
The hardships of Kolel are nothing compared to the pleasures. Like Rav Aharon ZT’L said – that those who support learning might get Olam Habah like those who learn, but they surely don’t get Olam Hazeh like them. Money isn’t everything – even in Olam Hazeh.
That’s why all this talk about those able to learn all day being an “exception to the rule” misses the point.
Not everyone will become Moshe Rabbeinu, to be sure, but everyone should try to come as close as they can. And everyone admits that being Moshe Rabbeinu is something to look up to, strive for, and admire. Even if most of us don’t ever make it there.
So too even if many people will not learn all day, we all must recognize that it is certainly a higher level, it is a prize and privilege and merit that we should all try to attain, since it provides us with a higher spiritual level, and reaching the highest level possible in this world is our goal.
Today, thank G-d we live in a society where many, many people can learn all day. They recognize, BH, that learning Torah is better for your soul than practicing law. Or accounting. Or writing software. No question about it.
The point is the values, not the behavior. Behavior represents Jews; the values represent Judaism. To say that not everyone will reach the high level of learning all day is acceptable. But to say that isn’t a higher level, is changing the Torah’s values. Talmud Torah Kneged Kulam. And that includes every second of learning.
Zman, the source is Hilchot Talmud Tora 1:12. He talks specifically about an artisan and says that he should work three hours and learn nine hours. However, the Netziv (Heemek Devar Devarim 10:12) says it depends on the individual’s tafkid.
Csar,
Consider the following letter the Rambam wrote to a friend which illustrates his work schedule. This was written 4 years prior to his death.
[Remember: his brother died at sea.]
I live in Fostat, and the Sultan lives Cairo. The distance between them is 4000 cubits [a mile and a half]
I get off of my donkey, wash my hands, and go out into the hall to see them. I apologize and ask that they should be kind enough to give me a few minutes to eat. That is the only meal I take in twenty-four hours. Then I go out to heal them, write them prescriptions and instructions for treating their problems.
Because of all this, no Jew can come and speak with me in wisdom or have a private audience with me because I have no time, except on Shabbat. On Shabbat, the whole congregation, or at least the majority of it, comes to my house after morning services, and I instruct the members of the community as to what they should do during the entire week. We learn together in a weak fashion until the afternoon. Then they all go home. Some of them come back and I teach more deeply between the afternoon and evening prayers.
Copy over the teshuva [written Torah response] I wrote to you and discuss it with all the scholars in your town. If, after that, you still want to come, I would happy to see you, but you should know you will not be able to learn with me here. My time is so compressed.
May your happiness, my dear pupil, increase and grow great, and may salvation be granted to our afflicted people.[1]
I know links are not allowed, feel free to google the text.
I think this is a sickness in our world. People think that any occupation besides Torah is meaningless. This simply is not true, and is not the Torah’s hashkafa.
This sort of thinking is a large part of the reason why people who should not be learning do not go out and work; they have been taught that it is worthless.
In fact, not only is it wrong, and harmful to people who end up not learning, but it is even harmful for the people who remain learning. A person should be learning because it is more valuable than all the other things he could be doing. Instead, he ends up learning because everything else is worthless. Well, it doesn’t say very much about the Torah if it is only better than worthless pursuits. It is just better than worthless.
To address the question: There is value to all sorts of jobs. ?? ????? ????, ???? ????.
I don’t work just to make money; I work because it is fulfilling to be involved in productive activity. And my field is not some touchy feely field. And on days when I’m tired in the morning, I quote chazal, ????? ????? ?????? ?? ??????.
lbmzr –
The Rashi is a good tzu shtel. And you’re right that Csar seems to be right. Why would work be a good thing?
There’s plenty to think about, but here’s what comes to mind. Work refines a person. It makes a person responsible, an invaluable trait. It forces a person to look beyond his own daled amos and see the world and empathize with other beings; to put himself in their place. Work makes one realize that he has to do in order to get – which taken from the right perspective can be the most humbling experience and a huge step in breaking one’s bad midos, and recognizing that Hashem is in charge. Sitting and learning even on the greatest levels does not always afford a person these things, and even if it does, it’s different. I am not chas veshalom putting down learning. I currently learn full-time myself. But I think that ideally one should aspire to at the same time learn as much as the day as possible for him and also be “oseik b’yishuvo shel olam,” i.e. work hard to make an honest living. There are so many other advantages too. The kids see the parent working hard and not complaining, they learn to work hard without complaining – and this carries over to their ruchniyus as well. L’mayseh if one has the opportunity to learn full-time in their younger years I certainly still say it’s a wonderful thing (unless one isn’t cut out for it), because even with all the benefits of work, you don’t want that your learning should be at a lower level your whole life than it could be, and by spending your younger years involved only in learning you can maximize your potential and thus make your learning experience throughout your entire life a thousand times more enriching. So for now I’m still a full-time learner. But iy”h I will join the work force one day, not because it is b’dieved or a necessary evil, but because it is one of the things we were created for and ought to embrace.
I don’t know THE hashkafa, but can repeated what my Rebbe told me the day before I started my first job.
Remember, you are going to work to earn a parnassa so that you can provide the necesseties for your wife and children. You are not a lowlife for leaving the beis medrash to fulfill this task. Remember though, that it is important to have fixed times for learning, both morning and night that no matter what, you will always keep. Tefilla, with a minyan, is a no brainer and should always be kept. If situation arises that might compromise either tefilla with a minyan or fixed learning schedule, call me to discuss. On days when there no work (sunday, legal holiday) increase your learning by adding an additional seder. While at work, remember while you are there. To do your job, not to become the most popular person in the office. Don’t go for drinks with the guys, or “do lunch” with them, even in a kosher restaurant. Be cordial to them, don’t become their best friends. The females in the office, if they say hellow, or if it is obvious you are purposely ignoring them, say good morning, no need to get into discussions. If working on project with females, be sure other males are always around too, preferably as part of the team. If not sure how to proceed, I am always available for you to call. Do so.
Nothing about pursuing hevel havalim, nothing about how I am low life for taking a job and leaving the kollel and nothing about how this is not what hashem wants from me.
popa: You have once again proven that anyone who knows Torah cannot buy into the nonsense which has become endemic in our communities. Another chazal I’d recommend is Rambam’s paraphrase of the mishna in avos.
????? ???? ???? ?? ???? ????? ???? ?? — ????? ????? ??? ???? ?? ????? ???
If you want to emulate Moshe Rabbeinu, then strive to be a leader, a Rabbi, a communal activist,supreme court judge and a myriad of other occupations that he did ALL while learning Torah from hashem.
buy into the nonsense which has become endemic in our communities.
What nonsense? Are you referring to what is espoused by the Gedolim?
Itche: Thank you. However, I don’t think I agree with you either. I do think that it is lechatchila for someone who wants to, to learn their whole life.
It’s lechatchila for anyone who can.
Its also lichatchila to do proper hishtadlus. For some it might be sitting in front of a sefer all day for others it is. Taking a job somewhere.if you have a Rav, he will guide you. If not you turn to the coffee room and get all sorts of crazy advice.
Ibmzr, you call working, in whatever occupation, “doing something crazy for 40+ hours a week” and an insurmountable obstacle to “proper ????? ???.” Well, you’ve narrowed the notion of “proper ????? ???” so severely as to dismiss our role in ma’aseh bereishit and empty Torah of nearly all applied value. I strongly object. Wherever we go, we do ????? ???. It’s not that we “can” do it or “might” do it, but that we “do” do it, for better or worse. Hinuch, too, is done not only in the classroom but everywhere. Again, it’s not something that *can* be done; it gets done, to whatever extent one is up for it. And guess what else: interacting with goyim is good. You can’t know yourself without having some idea about what isn’t yourself. The workplace, where yishuvo shel ‘olam takes place, is the right setting for all of these.
popa: I know you don’t agree with me. We’ve been through this one a few times. Do you want to run through the argument one last time before I go off to yeshiva in elul and won’t have time for flamewars?
No, I just wanted to go on the record, and not make a chillul Hashem by appearing to agree with you.
Your protest is duly noted. Back to our regularly scheduled leitzonus.
umalah haaretz deah es Hashem kemayim leyam mechasim – the chafetz chaim says this means that although the surface of the sea appears to be flat – the depth of the sea depends on the depth of the sea bed.
Similarly when mashiach comes the amount of deah es Hashem that will be given to each person will be toleh on the amount of hachanah they made in olam hazeh.
According to me this means that if you go to work becuase it is a mitzvah then when mashiach comes all your professional knowledge will be converted to Torah.
Thank you. Yes, back to leitzonus.
(I have a decent leitzonus I thought of over shabbos, but people are going to get mad at me, and bombmaniac would leave again if he was here.)
I tried to say some leitzonus about the story of ??? ?? ??? in Tanchuma but I couldn’t think of anything better than what the medrash already says about him.
Shlisi er al, prior to the advent of the welfare state since WW2 and unprecedented wealth of the Jewish community in the same time period, when in our history has more than 10%of all Jews sat and learned full time?
Are you kidding, lesschums? 10% of Jews aren’t even frum, let alone sit and learn full time! (Well, the frum are multiplying, kein yirbu, naturally and with baal teshuvos, and we are B”H becoming an ever increasing proportion of Jews. Especially as the irreligious reform/conservative/etc intermarry, nebech, and become 100% assimilated goyim.) There is nowhere close to 10% of Jews learning Torah full time. Not even 1% learn fulltime!! We should strive to at least quadruple the current percentage of full time learners.
Am i crazy?? It seems many people here believe that someone who learns torah all day is a better person then someone who doesnt. That is completely not true and frankly its insulting to people who dont learn as much. Obviously learning is important and its the greatest mitzvah. But the purpose of learning is not just to be learning, the purpose of learning is to know all of torah and use it to bring Hashem down to this world, not to brag about it on an online blog. If you learn torah good for you, your doing an amazing thing, but ur not more important then any other jews.
Shlishi, drei nit ken kup. Lesschumras meant more than 10% of the frum Jews.
Ibmzr- I wasnt talking to you or anyone in specific (maybe one person who shall remain anonymous to avoid machlokes). Is it possible that there is another way to understand what the rambam meant by that statement?
On another note, am i allow to disagree with something said by the rambam?
Naftush’s hashkafa is quoted more or less directly from one of the reform platforms. That says it all.
lbmzr – Note that even the Rambam said ????? ??? ??? ??????? ???? ???? ?????… and not ?? ???? ?????.
Csar -“Sitting and learning all day is the ideal. “Talmud Torah Kneged Kulam.” Chazal say, one word of Torah is higher than an entire lifetime of doing these Mitzvos.”
Site the source. I never heard this.
Loyal Jew- that’s quite an accusation. I believe you misunderstood him. Reform Judiasm says we should be like the goyim. Quite different then what naftush was saying. He simply said being exposed to goyim is not a bad thing. I’m not sure why that’s so bad to say however I do understand why some people would disagree. If you’ve ever been exposed to a non Jew, you may realize some of them are amazing human beings
PBA -Don’t you know WORK is a four -letter word?
far east – I think the point is – ein hachi nami – klal yisrael needs all sorts – but the Rambam is just coming from a perspective of ‘why me?’ – why should I be the dufus (like me) who goes to work and not learn. He is not making an empirical statement.
This is along the lines of the gemara which says ee ephshar leolam belo burseki uvelo bursi – aval ashri mi sheumnosoh bursi oy lemi sheumnosoh burseki.
Sure the world needs both, but why do you need to be the sucker if you don’t have to be?
Apologies to all in the trhead if this is a bit straightforward
Loyal Jew:
No, actually, Naftush’s haskafa is quoted more or less directly from R. Samson Raphael Hirsch. That says it all.
mdd: A Jew is a Jew, religious or not. If you’re going to run numbers, you need to look what percentage of ALL JEWS are full time learners.
Unfortunately, way too few. We need many more.
A man marrys a very fine girl and her father promises to support him while he learns full time.
The couple have 10 children, 5 boys and 5 girls. Each of the Boys marrys a girl whose father will support them and the girls marry Kollel boys on the condition that their father will support them. Each of the 5 Married daughters has 5 kids each.
How is a Kollel guy supposed to support 37 mouths (His 5 daughters and Son-In-Laws , 25 grand kids , himself and his wife)
far east and rsrh, we have to be careful not to fall victim to gobbledygook just because it’s nicely worded. Naftush ballooned the workplace into an “applied” yeshiva, defined “hinuch” in a way that qualifies everyone automatically as a 24/7 mechanech, called mingling with goyim a great way to get to know yourself, etc. That’s not Yiddishkeit, that’s the road out of Yiddishkeit r”l. Yiddishkeit is about serving Hashem, not running a self-discovery seminar. Somehow I think Harav Hirsch would agree.
Hi Ibmzr.
Whether Hashem wants YOU to spend most of your day making money, I dont know.
But I do want to add a more positive spin to your outlook on “making money”. Earning money is very important. Money can accomplish many vital, important, and holy things.
I cannot tell you the complete list of gadolim throughout history who worked in business at a trade and in a profession. One would assume they did not do so giving their occupation short shrift.
Secondly, none of us know how “lasting” a specific job is. Certainly, if someone is going to pay your for something, it has importance to them, and to the bigger picture. It is not only the quarterback who wins the game.
What IS lasting, is how one performs at their job. Any person can make any job a kiddush Hashem, or chas veshalom not.
I once read in a foreward to a book, that a “Ben Torah tries to handle EVERYTHING that comes his way better than the average person”. That, I recommend, is the hashkafa we should all bring to the workforce. Our actions are certainly lasting.
Loyal Jew: Indeed, according to R. Samson Rapahel Hirsch’s TIDE, the workplace (and the street, the grocery store, the art meuseam, the cruise vacation, the college, and anywhere else you find your self) is an “applied yeshiva.” You learn in order to know how to act properly in the world – how to participate fully in the best of human civilization within the parameters of halacha. According to R. Hirsch, our GOAL is to apply halacha in our lives in thw world – using halacha to decide what to eat, how to work, how to speak to our co-workers and clients, what are to look at and what not to look at, and how to judge the validity of the art’s message, what classes to take/not take in college, and judge the legitimacy of their messages, ect, ect, ect. Learning is a means to this end; lilmod k’dei laasos. And by living Torah, by making Torah-regulated life a reality, we show the rest of the world by our example how to live full, Godly lives. We cannot do this in the closed-off walls of the beis medrash; we can only do this by following halacha while we fully participate in and embrace all that is good and worthwhile in the world. We need the beis midrash to know how to act outside, but if we never make it outside then we are learning for our own self-indulgence, not lishmah – for the Torah’s sake.
You may not like this outlook, and that is your privilege. But please don’t denigrate a major stream of thought about what it means to be a Jew by perverting R’ Hirsch’s thought and calling it his own.
shlishi: A Jew is a Jew? So happy to hear you admit it. What if “a Jew” walks into your shtibl one day?
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