"Harei At"

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  • #600142
    stuck
    Member

    If someone suddenly puts a ring on a girl and says Harei At, are they married?

    What if a boy and girl are playing and he does that?

    #820323
    yitayningwut
    Participant

    If there are two kosher eidim, then yes. If it is clear from the situation that it they don’t mean it, that might be a heter. I am not in the inyan.

    #820324
    stuck
    Member

    What is he meant it, but she didn’t? (i.e. he ambushed her in front of two eidem.)

    #820325
    Sam2
    Participant

    She has to have Da’as. If it’s sudden then we might be able to assume that she didn’t.

    #820326
    yitayningwut
    Participant

    A woman cannot be forced into a kiddushin. If she appeared to consent, you have a problem.

    #820327

    What “stuck” really means to say is-

    This is the thread where everyone writes about the story they once heard about some guy who did something he thought was funny and then later realized it wasn’t as funny as he thought it was originally and then they went to some rabbi and he gave some psak, but the poster cant quite accurately remember what said psak was and so he writes his own psak as fact and the story is very funny and probably not true, but it could have been true if it was.

    #820328
    Obaminator
    Member

    The famous story is of a boy and girl playing and him putting a ring on her and saying harei at. Whatever the veracity of the story is, from what I remember the conclusion being that he had to give a safek gitten in case the marriage was effective. It would seem she would then be precluded from marrying a Kohen in the future.

    #820329
    real-brisker
    Member

    stuck – Joseph?

    #820330
    bein_hasdorim
    Participant

    stuck how old is the boy?

    #820331
    gezuntheit
    Member

    How does age impact the issue?

    #820332
    nitpicker
    Participant

    what do you mean, “A famous story”.

    Many such stories have happend and each requires

    being dealt with by competent rabbonnim.

    it is unfortunate that young people (boys and girls)

    sometimes regard doing this as a great joke.

    the proper response of the girl should be to immediately

    remove and return or drop the ring; and/or she should immediately

    say, “no I am not!”. or something to that effect.

    #820333
    kapusta
    Participant

    stuck – Joseph?

    At least one more (and maybe more) on this thread.

    *kapusta*

    #820334
    mommamia22
    Participant

    How old do the children and the aidim have to be to be considered “kosher”? What if it’s clear that it’s just “pretend” play to all?

    #820335
    yitayningwut
    Participant

    Bar/bas mitzvah. If it’s clear that it’s not real there may be a heter, I’m not sure. If we’re talking really after the fact – like the girl grew up, got married, had a kid, and realized “yoish my kid might be a mamzer” – I am sure a rav would use this angle to say there is no problem whatsoever, but I don’t know the sugya well enough to be more specific.

    #820336
    deiyezooger
    Member

    There are many teshuvos including some in Igros Moshe discussing such stories. Of course it depends in many things like if it apears she agreed, if there was 2 kosher eidim (shomrei torah imitzvos)etc.

    #820337
    Dr. Seuss
    Member

    A child under Bar/Bas Mitzvah cannot halachicly get married?

    #820338
    2qwerty
    Participant

    Few people mentioned about eidim but i don’t think they are necessary at all.

    #820339
    real-brisker
    Member

    kapusta – Not hard to spot him, no?

    #820340
    blabla
    Participant

    I heard of a few creepy stories of boys saying that and it WAS a problem. Just ask your LOR if anything does happen!

    #820341
    Nechomah
    Participant

    I heard about a carnival where someone set up a “wedding booth” and kids ran this scenario. I believe it accurate when I say that gitten had to be given, at least al safek. Kids have to realize the seriousness when they say this.

    #820342
    Dr. Seuss
    Member

    2qwerty: So they are married even if there are no eidim?

    #820343
    Sam2
    Participant

    2qwerty: Of course you need Eidim. Kiddushin isn’t Chal unless there are two Kasher Eidim.

    It’s Mefurash in the Shulchan Aruch that a child under Bar Mitzvah cannot be Mekadesh a woman.

    #820344
    yungerman1
    Participant

    nitpicker- The “famous story” is probably the one that is in Igros Moshe.

    Dr. Seuss- A girl under bat mitzvah can be married off by her father min haTorah and by her mother/brother mDirabannan.

    2qwerty- As far as I know there is no kiddushin without eidim. (other than possibly a shtar written in his handwriting that she has in her possession)

    mommamia22- That is part of the question. Generally we say “D’varim Shebilev Lo Havi Devarim” loosely translated as intent which contradicts the actions that we see are not taken into consideration.

    #820345
    BTGuy
    Participant

    Well, that’s one way to get married, I guess.

    #820346
    oot for life
    Participant

    i girl i once dated told me her rabbonim had told her not to accept shalach manos from any boys as it could create a problem of sufek kiddushin.

    I had never heard of such a thing so I went and gave her a nice big basket anyway… we got married a few months later

    #820347
    gezuntheit
    Member

    yungerman1: So I can marry off my 11 year old sister?

    #820348
    Sam2
    Participant

    OOT: It’s brought down in some Poskim that the reason boys don’t send Shalach Manos to girls is because there is a Chashash Kiddushin. That might still apply in many communities today but there are also plenty of places where it would be normal for boys to send girls gifts and therefore there is no Chashash Kiddushin.

    Her Rabbonim could have told her to explicitly state before taking any of the Shalach Manos that she is not accepting Kiddushin by taking these. That would also work.

    #820349
    gezuntheit
    Member

    Sam: Uh, in which communities is it “normal for boys to send girls gifts”?

    #820350
    Sam2
    Participant

    Plenty of out-of-town places as well as in a lot of places when people are dating it’s normal, even though you know you’re not being Mekadesh or even getting engaged yet.

    #820351
    gezuntheit
    Member

    You learn something new everyday.

    #820352
    nitpicker
    Participant

    There is at least one in igros moshe that required a get

    and at least one that did not.

    #820353
    Dr. Seuss
    Member

    That’s like saying there was at least one kashrus shaila in the IM that was determined kosher and there was at least one kashrus shaila in the IM that was determined non-kosher.

    #820354
    nitpicker
    Participant

    To Dr. Seuss:

    Yes indeed, that was the point.

    As I wrote in earlier post, such a situation requires the attention of competent rabbonnim, not to be trifled with by

    coffee addicts.

    #820355
    oomis
    Participant

    I personally know someone to whom this happened, and it was a very sticky wicket until the rabbanim decided she did not need a GET. It ALMOST came to it, though, because there were lots of eidim, and they were going out together for a while, when he said it playfully and she did not object.

    #820356
    shein
    Member

    Coffee addicts can’t have a halachic discussion?

    #820357
    nitpicker
    Participant

    to shein: it depends what you mean. most rabbonnim wouldnt touch a question like this and would refer it to someone of gadol or near gadol status.

    I can’t think why, all they need do is post and wait for an answer. (sneer)

    This public discussion is dangerous and can lead to being machshil people.

    mods, what do you think?

    This is my last word on this topic

    #820358
    shein
    Member

    So any halachic discussion should be verboten by that logic, since someone might act upon it. So should forums ban all halachic discussion, in your opinion?

Viewing 37 posts - 1 through 37 (of 37 total)
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