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If someone suddenly puts a ring on a girl and says Harei At, are they married?
What if a boy and girl are playing and he does that?
If there are two kosher eidim, then yes. If it is clear from the situation that it they don’t mean it, that might be a heter. I am not in the inyan.
She has to have Da’as. If it’s sudden then we might be able to assume that she didn’t.
A woman cannot be forced into a kiddushin. If she appeared to consent, you have a problem.
What “stuck” really means to say is-
This is the thread where everyone writes about the story they once heard about some guy who did something he thought was funny and then later realized it wasn’t as funny as he thought it was originally and then they went to some rabbi and he gave some psak, but the poster cant quite accurately remember what said psak was and so he writes his own psak as fact and the story is very funny and probably not true, but it could have been true if it was.
The famous story is of a boy and girl playing and him putting a ring on her and saying harei at. Whatever the veracity of the story is, from what I remember the conclusion being that he had to give a safek gitten in case the marriage was effective. It would seem she would then be precluded from marrying a Kohen in the future.
stuck – Joseph?
stuck how old is the boy?
How does age impact the issue?
what do you mean, “A famous story”.
Many such stories have happend and each requires
being dealt with by competent rabbonnim.
it is unfortunate that young people (boys and girls)
sometimes regard doing this as a great joke.
the proper response of the girl should be to immediately
remove and return or drop the ring; and/or she should immediately
say, “no I am not!”. or something to that effect.
How old do the children and the aidim have to be to be considered “kosher”? What if it’s clear that it’s just “pretend” play to all?
Bar/bas mitzvah. If it’s clear that it’s not real there may be a heter, I’m not sure. If we’re talking really after the fact – like the girl grew up, got married, had a kid, and realized “yoish my kid might be a mamzer” – I am sure a rav would use this angle to say there is no problem whatsoever, but I don’t know the sugya well enough to be more specific.
There are many teshuvos including some in Igros Moshe discussing such stories. Of course it depends in many things like if it apears she agreed, if there was 2 kosher eidim (shomrei torah imitzvos)etc.
A child under Bar/Bas Mitzvah cannot halachicly get married?
Few people mentioned about eidim but i don’t think they are necessary at all.
kapusta – Not hard to spot him, no?
I heard of a few creepy stories of boys saying that and it WAS a problem. Just ask your LOR if anything does happen!
I heard about a carnival where someone set up a “wedding booth” and kids ran this scenario. I believe it accurate when I say that gitten had to be given, at least al safek. Kids have to realize the seriousness when they say this.
2qwerty: So they are married even if there are no eidim?
2qwerty: Of course you need Eidim. Kiddushin isn’t Chal unless there are two Kasher Eidim.
It’s Mefurash in the Shulchan Aruch that a child under Bar Mitzvah cannot be Mekadesh a woman.
nitpicker- The “famous story” is probably the one that is in Igros Moshe.
Dr. Seuss- A girl under bat mitzvah can be married off by her father min haTorah and by her mother/brother mDirabannan.
2qwerty- As far as I know there is no kiddushin without eidim. (other than possibly a shtar written in his handwriting that she has in her possession)
mommamia22- That is part of the question. Generally we say “D’varim Shebilev Lo Havi Devarim” loosely translated as intent which contradicts the actions that we see are not taken into consideration.
Well, that’s one way to get married, I guess.
i girl i once dated told me her rabbonim had told her not to accept shalach manos from any boys as it could create a problem of sufek kiddushin.
I had never heard of such a thing so I went and gave her a nice big basket anyway… we got married a few months later
yungerman1: So I can marry off my 11 year old sister?
OOT: It’s brought down in some Poskim that the reason boys don’t send Shalach Manos to girls is because there is a Chashash Kiddushin. That might still apply in many communities today but there are also plenty of places where it would be normal for boys to send girls gifts and therefore there is no Chashash Kiddushin.
Her Rabbonim could have told her to explicitly state before taking any of the Shalach Manos that she is not accepting Kiddushin by taking these. That would also work.
Sam: Uh, in which communities is it “normal for boys to send girls gifts”?
Plenty of out-of-town places as well as in a lot of places when people are dating it’s normal, even though you know you’re not being Mekadesh or even getting engaged yet.
You learn something new everyday.
There is at least one in igros moshe that required a get
and at least one that did not.
That’s like saying there was at least one kashrus shaila in the IM that was determined kosher and there was at least one kashrus shaila in the IM that was determined non-kosher.
To Dr. Seuss:
Yes indeed, that was the point.
As I wrote in earlier post, such a situation requires the attention of competent rabbonnim, not to be trifled with by
coffee addicts.
I personally know someone to whom this happened, and it was a very sticky wicket until the rabbanim decided she did not need a GET. It ALMOST came to it, though, because there were lots of eidim, and they were going out together for a while, when he said it playfully and she did not object.
Coffee addicts can’t have a halachic discussion?
to shein: it depends what you mean. most rabbonnim wouldnt touch a question like this and would refer it to someone of gadol or near gadol status.
I can’t think why, all they need do is post and wait for an answer. (sneer)
This public discussion is dangerous and can lead to being machshil people.
mods, what do you think?
This is my last word on this topic
So any halachic discussion should be verboten by that logic, since someone might act upon it. So should forums ban all halachic discussion, in your opinion?
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