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“Netanyahu today banned politicians from ascending to the HH”B. Is Netanyahu a raging leftist who sees a violent outcome when Jewish politicians ascend?”
Possibly he did so as the arab mk’s would also be blocked from further incitement which indeed happened, and arab mks still complained. Besides netanyahu does not act according to his beliefs, which he has written about, but whatever is best for his polls.
This is why we should vote for the most right wing party possible even if you don’t agree with half of what they say, just so that there will be tension pulling to the right forcing the PM’s decisions to at least be appropriately tough and not too pacifist. This is pikuach nefesh.
There is an argument not really dealt with here and that is the danger of giving an inch in response to terror. It may be assur to go up, it may anger the arabs and even in the short term cause more casualties, (maybe not), but if you give in anything when hammas demand it all just encourages more terror. And at least 40 to 50% arabs support them. This is the “salami” tactic. First get one slice not essential to us then another till they have it all. Today its har habais tomorrow its the kosel.
We find similar ideas with the din of sha’as shmad when they want us to abandon the entire torah we don’t give in even on chumros.
Also the din is we do not free captives in certain circumstances even if they will die in order to save future captives. We find these results today with isis, those countries who don’t negotiate have sacrificed a few unfortunate cases but their citizens are now safe. It’s not worth their bother to capture them if they’ll get no money.
DaasYochid: your assertion is pure fantasy. Every action we do in Eretz,every position we take inEretz Yisroel brings danger with it. Living in Kiryat sefer is more dangerous than going up the Hat Habayis. Have you forgotten all the korbanos in attacks in Emanuel. Jerushalaim, Chevron and many more. Just living in Eretz Yisroel encompasses some danger. If we believe that Har Habayis is ours and Jewish, then that interest should be supported, even at the risk of some danger.
Your hashkafos are not only wrong, they’re dangerous.
…and nonsensical. The fact that danger exists is not a rational reason to disregard every and all other dangers.
#JewishLivesMatter
DaasYochid and mw13: your attitude leads to hundreds of thousands of jews going to their death without lifting a hand to defend themselves…
No. That’s ridiculous.
Nobody here has said a word about a situation where one is trying to protect themselves. I believe that that is blatantly obvious.
In an apparent nationalist motivated revenge attack, a Jewish Israeli with a history of mental illness stabbed four Arabs in the town of Dimona. The 17-year old man admitted to police that he stabbed the three Arabs and a Bedouin in two separate incidents on Friday morning because he believes all Arabs are terrorists. Two of the wounded were taken to hospital and their conditions listed as medium to serious.
Shall we blame your attitude for this recent event? Or for the Duma arson attack?
DaasYochid: not by much.
Rob: very ridiculous and very dangerous. And danger is something defined by halachah.
Chareidi dont feel bad it doesnt make sense is not fact based.
Their is a video of a knife wielding terrorist getting shot that is being circulated to show how the Israelis shoot “innocent” women. I’m guessing in the view of DY, Joseph, Mw13 et al those who shoot terrorist are responsible for any further blood shed since this “provokes” them
The fact that you’re guessing completely wrong should indicate how faulty your thinking is.
DY
either that or how irrational and inconsistent your approach is…
I suppose that if you don’t know the difference between self-defense and provocation, my approach is inconsistent.
Not taking any sides here, just writing my experience.
I was caught in the cross-fire last time around. It was on a Friday before Rosh Hashana. We were Davening at the Kosel peacefully, when suddenly rocks were raining down on us. It was such a scary moment. Police ran in and told us, erroneously to move away from the base of the wall, towards the back and hide in the tunnel. Which was a big mistake, because rocks cannot fall directly down at the base. I ran right alongside the Kosel into the tunnel, we all emptied out from the Kosel proper, we had there quite a number of people, terrified. There was so much screaming, shrieking from the women’s section, so much commotion, as they attempted to all fit in the small room on their side, tend to the children, carriages… Police / soldiers then locked the gates to the tunnel, and then ran up to respond to the rioting arabs.
The noise of gunfire was deafening, so terrifying, I never heard anything like it before, perhaps because of the echoing effect of the Kosel plaza outside. It sounded like a hundred thunderstorms. That’s when we said Tehillim 142 the first time, with a literal sense, ?????? ?????, with such a likeness to the urgency of David Hamelech. It was so hard not to cry. Literally, for real.
chareidmolim:
I do not understand all this about “provoking” the Arabs. We are in the midst of a war with them. In a war does every bullet fired at the enemy constitute “provocation”; or must we wait until the enemy has their gun aimed at us before “provoking” him?
If we were in a full-fledged war with them, then your logic would be correct. But we are not.
Not every Arab is currently trying to kill every Jew in Israel. Abbas and his cronies are not calling for violence, much less declaring war. So provocations can still make things worse.
(Obviously, this not does not apply to measure taken in self-defense, or to eliminate a possible threat. But ascending HHB is neither of those.)
ubiquitin, I am disappointed. Until now, your comments have contained logical arguments. I believe that the logic was flawed, but it was still there. But your last two comment are nothing more than petty demagoguery. Of course we do not believe that shooting is terrorists is wrong. I find it difficult to believe that you would actually doubt that.
Ash : you made the most preposterous statement yet”. “danger is defined by halocho”. HUH?? I have to consult the shulchan aruch to know that when enemies wield a knife at me or shoot at me that this is a danger? Give me break!
Of course halachah defines sakanah, and your example in no way disproves that.
I don’t need to consult Shulchan Aruch to know that I need to eat a k’zayis of matzah on Pesach, but the shiur achilah is still defined by halachah.
mw13
Dont be disapointed. i’ll explain it to you. Though my postion is not based on logic it is strictly fact based.
There are two separate arguments going on tangentially.
1) Does Jews walking on har habayis incite more violence, thus making them responsible for it.
2) Does that make it wrong
(There is a third discussion regarding the halachic issue of walkign on har habyis, but i usualy avoid strictly halachic discussions on this forum because they usually turn into comparing R’ x to R’ Y)
some have argued that going on har habyis even if would lead to more violence is neccesary to show shlita over it or something to that affect. In other words they either concede or just dont discuss argument 1. I’m not sure I agree with that. The thrust of my argument was limited to argument 1.
Now according to your (and Joseph’s, DY’s argument) if I do an act X and you say oh you did X I’m going to do Y. Even if youve done Y multiple times without my X, even if you had planned to do Y anyway, even if I have done X multiple times without you doing Y. I am responsible for any outcomes of Y.
Again note: this doesnt automatically make X wrong.
Please correct me if I’ve misstated your position.
Following the above “logic”. If Soldiers shooting terrorists is used to incite more terror that makes them responsible. Granted it may be necessary and not wrong.
Please explain why soldiers killing terrorists doesnt make them responsible for more terror (again not why the action is justified)?
Also I asked earlier if in your view Yosef Lipshutz was responsible for the death of Yankel Rosenbaum (even inadvertently) is he?
Now according to your (and Joseph’s, DY’s argument) if I do an act X and you say oh you did X I’m going to do Y. Even if youve done Y multiple times without my X, even if you had planned to do Y anyway, even if I have done X multiple times without you doing Y. I am responsible for any outcomes of Y. Again note: this doesnt automatically make X wrong. Please correct me if I’ve misstated your position.
You have slightly, although I’m sure unintentionally, distorted my opinion. I shall try, yet again, to clarify it.
The first step is try to take a more nuanced view. Every Arab doesn’t always attack every Jew they see. As a matter of fact, its a rather small percentage (considering that there are several million Arabs, and nowhere near that amount of terrorist attacks). But some do. And no doubt, some are on the fence; they are considering becoming terrorists, but not completely sure about it. There are various factors that can cause that on-the-fence Arab to go one way or the other. One such factor (although certainly not the only one) is if Jews provoke him/her. And if indeed Jewish provocation is what pushed this OTF Arab to become a terrorist, the Jews behind that provocation do bear some of the responsibility.
mw13
“… One such factor (although certainly not the only one) is if Jews provoke him/her….”
another such factor is the perceived injustice of how the Israelis treated the terrorist in Afula (that i mentioned above). Even if they were justified in our view and in reality.
If not why not?
Listen, if you honestly believe that killing a terrorist can be compared to ascending HHB, this conversation may have hit a dead end.
It took that long to realize?
mw13
“Listen, if you honestly believe that killing a terrorist can be compared to ascending HHB”
whoa hold up
I don’t in the slightest!
(fyoo no dead end, maybe someone will finnaly answer my simple question regarding Yankel Rosenbaum)
Do you not think there are arabs who view them the same?
Is that really a crazy question?
charedimodim
Number 1 can be proven with actual facts as I have repeatedly in many many posts.
Jews have ascended Har habyais without violence – fact
violence has occured without har habayis – fact
Kids have played in traffic without being killed – fact
People have been killed without playing in traffic – fact
DY
thats interesting is do you mean their isnt an increase in mortality when kids play in traffic historically?
otherwise what shaychus?
BTW
I’d be remiss if I didnt mention another point that is being overlooked.
People are responsible for their own actions. Being “provoked” is not an excuse to stab random people. And it in no way shifts responsibility
even if walking on har habayis led to more violence (which historically it hasnt)The full responsibility for the deaths are by the perpetrators. Walking on har habyais isnt an excuse to kill people, neither is visiting the kosel neither is being Jewish.
And for those who seem to have trouble answering a simple question regarding Yankel Rosenbaum. The Full responsibility for his death lies with Lemrick Nelson. Not the driver who killed Gavin Cato, even IF he ran a red, nor with the hatzalah people even if they did neglect to treat Cato (they didnt but that rumor was spread)
To give some more exmples, since some people are having trouble with this. The Charlie Hebdo authors are not repsonsible for their own deaths. Zero Nada. They may not have been smart people or very nice ones for that matter. But “being provoked” is not an excuse.
I reall dont know why this is difficult. If I smack some guy named Joseph, because I feel Jospeh is obnoxious. Is he (at all) responsible for my smacking Joseph?
Even if I warn and say hey Joseph youre not nice If you make a snide comment again Im smacking my neighbor Jospeh Smith.
And keep in mind, I dont usually hit Jospeh smith, so the Arab terror example, which unfortunately has occurred in the past is even MORE removed from the “provocation”
Ubiquitin, where’s you double blind control study for that?
I don’t think anyone claims that the terrorists are not responsible, but someone who incites also bears some responsibility, obviously not nearly as much.
Haga atzmicha – if there were double blind control studies demonstrating the increase in violence due to ascension to HH”B, would it be okay since the blame is anyhow solely on the terrorists?
To give some more exmples, since some people are having trouble with this. The Charlie Hebdo authors are not repsonsible for their own deaths. Zero Nada. They may not have been smart people or very nice ones for that matter. But “being provoked” is not an excuse.
Forget who is “responsible”. Can we agree that if the editors hadn’t published the cartoons, they would still be alive?
Translating this into our sugya, can we agree that there are people who have been killed that would still be alive if no Jews ascending HHB (again, regardless of who is actually “responsible” for those deaths)?
Who is blind to see Hashems’s wrath on those who play with the Holy Har Habayis. 10 day of attacks are not enough? It’s time to repent and listen to the torah as it was passed down from generation to generation, WITHOUT making our own changes!!
Not only do all the Chereidi gedolim say it is asur to go to Har Habayis, but all the Mizrachli also said so including Rav Kook. It is just the young Mizrachi rabonnim of our times who say it’s okay. Who gave them the right to override Rav Kook?
Saying that ascending to Har Habayis is wrong because it incites muslim wrath and is “provoking” them to anger and therefore endangers Jewish lives, is the same twisted logic that says that it’s wrong to move to Israel because that also provokes their anger and makes them violent.
Who is blind to see Hashems’s wrath on those who play with the Holy Har Habayis. 10 day of attacks are not enough
And do you have a direct line to hashem to know this for a fact?
Truthfully, going and removing the Ark from it’s hiding place (having been seen inside by multiple wittnesses in 1982 along with other gold objects but now burried behind 6 ft of concrete) inside of Har Habayis is more important than ascending. It would cause several things:
1. Establish the precise location of the kodosh kodoshim
2. Reinstill national pride and mass tshuvah in Israel
3. Establish a mishkan on HHB eventually a temple building
the people who say things are “coincident” are the cruel ones. (Rambam Hl’ Taanis). We have to open our eyes to Hashem’s messages.
What if the message is “Since you dont appreciate har Habayis and visit it, I will take it away from you”
daasTR: I imagine that your initials TR mean Daas Torah. You are right in saying that there are no coincidences but you totally miss the point. You have no idea whether the point is to avoid Har Habayis or,to the contrary, to go to Har Habayis -as zahavasdad says. The most recent korbanos in Jerushalaim have never gone up to the Har Habayis-yet they get murdered. What is the lesson in this?
DY
“if there were double blind control studies demonstrating the increase in violence due to ascension to HH”B, would it be okay since the blame is anyhow solely on the terrorists?”
I do think so. But I can see two tzedadim. so that isnt what I was focusing this discussion on.
mw13
“Forget who is “responsible”. Can we agree that if the editors hadn’t published the cartoons, they would still be alive?”
Most probably. Unlike terrorism in ISrael simply becasue we are there, attacks on tabloids in France have not hapened in the past. But that makes my point stronger! They would most proabbly be alive if not for the cartoons. They still have zero blood on their hands. Cartoons as offfesive as they are do not justify terror. Walking on har habayis does not justify terror. Even if the only time there was ever violence in Eretz Yisorel was when people walked on har habayis. The terrosists and only the terroists are fully to blame.
“Translating this into our sugya, can we agree that there are people who have been killed that would still be alive if no Jews ascending HHB (again, regardless of who is actually “responsible” for those deaths)?”
I’m not sure, probably not
Though you lost me “regardless of who is actually “responsible””
What do you mean “regardless” Isnt that the exact point we are discussing? whether those who asscen har habayis are responsible (to whatever degree) to the current terror.
BTW I had a very naive coworker who honestly wanted to know why didnt just embrace oso hoish. she said by not accepting him obviously this would upset the church so of course they persecuted us what should we expect.
Now leaving aside the halachic aspect (as I have for har habayis) do you think she raises a good point, that by rejecting oso hoish we incited violence against ourselves over the centuries and are partly responsible or as DY put it “have blood on our hands”?
The evil in the world is the great deceiver. Black is white, white is black. Whenever a Jew is doing what G-d asks of Him her…it’s going to resist and fight him. The more important the task, the harder the fight. It doesn’t take more than a brief look in the Tanach, to see that whenever great people did great things, great evil was there to resist them, even to the point of death. If someone says it’s a crime for a Jew to just walk on a small part of HHB they are saying it’s a crime to be a Jew. If they throw rocks and attack a Goy who says “am Israel Chai” while walking on HHB, then it’s a crime to be a Jew in Israel. Laying down and being comfortable with such intolerance is against principals of Torah. When the Jews came back from Bavel and with the niviim started rebuilding the 2nd Bays Hamigdash, guess what, they faced huge obstacles even attacks back in that day as well. Being comfortable to lay down and give up 30% of the mitzvot in the Torah because some arab thugs tell Israel what to do with their own land is wrong.
I love how the moderators of this site deleted my post of Rav Moshe Tendler ascending HHB, the full video with him even giving a halachic ruling about where one can go. Trying to hide the truth is just as dishonorable as a lie. If anyone wants to view it, just google Rav Moshe Tendler of Monsey ascends HHB.
Thanks for the attitude and stereotypical assumptions. We don’t post outside links.. I deleted your post without even reading it.
ubiquitin:
What do you mean “regardless” Isnt that the exact point we are discussing? whether those who asscen har habayis are responsible (to whatever degree) to the current terror.
Not really. What we’re discussing is whether or not it is a good idea to ascend HHB. (Aside from the Halachic prohibition, which has been discussed at length).
What the geder of “responsibility” is is somewhat of a side point.
MM,
1. If one holds that it is prohibited to walk on an part of HHB because of tumat met then walking there is not behaving like a Jew. In any case, IMHO before we can ask to go up on HHB we have to learn how to act in shul, the mikdash me’at.
2. I would shake hands with (male) goy who says “Am Yisrael Chai” even not on HHB.
mw13
I am only discussing responsibility and blame.
BTW
Regarding my comparing the “provokation” for ascending har habayis t the “provocation” of killing terorists (again not in my mind, bu tin the terrorist’s)
Here is a quote from The Independent describing the motives of one of the terrorists:
If someone knowingly does something which is likely to lead to harm to others, of course they take some blame and culpability when it happens.
DY: That’s absurd. Your being alive (as a Jew) harms all of us here because it incites people by our existence. If you actually believed that claim, you would never leave your house (at least, not with a Kippah or Tzitzis or anything that makes you look Jewish) so no possible antisemite could know you exist.
DY
You are making an assumption many dont hold by, that visting that har Habyis is causing this terrorism, others hold that Arabs with knives are causing terrorism, not visiting the Har Habayis
Sam, so you would have us all kill ourselves?
ZD, no I’m not. This is at least the third time here you have expressed a different view in my name than I actually hold.
Just curious, all those who say that since it’s the terrorists’ fault, there’s no culpability for incitement: do you hold the muslim clerics who get up in public, waving a knife screaming to kill the Jews, responsible, or are they entirely blameless if they do no actual stabbing?
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