Ascending Har Habayis?!

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  • #591698
    emoticon613
    Member

    how can they do that? going up to there is an issur of massive proportions, and they’re planning on leading more and more people up there?! isn’t there something about choteh u’machati es harabim…

    #686208
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    going up to there is an issur of massive porportions

    Without getting into arguments about whose rav is bigger than the other guy’s rav, there *are* opinions that *certain portions* of the Har HaBayis *are* permitted provided that they are not tamei from tumos other than tumas meis. Obviously there are also dissenting opinions.

    The Wolf

    #686209
    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Emoticon, there are rabbonim who permit ascending the temple mount. When I was in high school, I had a Rabbi as a teacher who held that the fact we control Har Habayis, we should 100% be bringing karbanos.

    I know some people who have had the pleasure of going on Har Habayis. The spoke about what an amazing, spiritual journey it was. They went to the mikvah before hand and prayed really well.

    Perhaps this is the start of Moshiach. Showing Hashem we WANT it.

    #686210
    d a
    Member

    emoticon613, why don’t you tell everyone what you are talking about?

    Taken from the main YWN page

    VIDEO & PHOTOS: Chareidi Jews Defy Gedolei Yisroel & Ascend Har HaBayis

    (Tuesday, May 25th, 2010)

    A group of Chareidi Jews ascended the Har Habayis today, with one man fully prostrating himself in prayer (as can be seen in the attached photos).

    According to reports, the group was led by Rabbi Yitzchak Brand of the city of Emanuel and Rabbi Yisrael Ariel of the Temple Institute in Jerusalem. The group say they intend to bring ever-larger groups of Jews to the Mount with the purpose of eventually holding a Korban Pesach (Passover sacrifice) there.

    It must be noted that according to the Poskei Hador one is absolutely forbidden to visit the Temple Mount.

    This past Sukkos, Israeli President Shimon Peres paid a visit to the Sukkah of Maran Hagon Rav Elyashiv Shlita, where Rav Elyashiv called on the President to prevent Jews from visiting Har HaBayis, stating it is an act that that is viewed as extremely provocative by the goyim. Maran stated everything possible must be done to avoid a religious war, and the provocateurs are playing with fire.

    Maran is quoted as explaining to the president that Halacha forbids going onto Har HaBayis but today, it is more than this, it is an act that may lead to a religious war and bloodshed.

    In the summer of 2008, Rabbi Moshe Tendler visited Har HaBayis and caused a firestorm amongst Gedolei Eretz Yisroel.

    CLICK HERE FOR VIDEO: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/General+News/59394/VIDEO-%26-PHOTOS:-Chareidi-Jews-Defy-Gedolei-Yisroel-%26-Ascend-Har-HaBayis.html

    CLICK HERE FOR PHOTOS: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/photos.php?albumid=5475321797258635137

    #686211
    d a
    Member

    And here are some of the Comments left on the above story:

    1. d a says: May 25, 2010 at 5:39 pm

    2. AMCHU says: May 25, 2010 at 5:46 pm

    #686212
    dvorak
    Member

    The problem isn’t that it’s totally issur. There is no question that there are parts of Har HaBayis that one can go to even nowadays. However, we are not entirely sure of the boundaries. Dealing with issurei kares, you don’t want to play with those fuzzy boundaries…

    #686213
    Kingcup
    Member

    Can anyone explain why theses men dont need to toivel in “MAYON” mikve that is required for a zov or somtimes even seven days waiting before going to a “MAYON” mikve?

    #686214
    hereorthere
    Member

    Well, if they are not allowed at all because of questions about where the boundries are, if all the rabbonim agree that because of such concerns, no one may go at all, then it would seem to me that Toiveling in a Mikveh, no matter where, or how properly, would not help.

    #686215
    emoticon613
    Member

    i didn’t say that there aren’t rabbanim that permit it – but you can’t argue with rav elyashiv and rav kanievsky among others. and even though people already said it – i know there are places one is allowed to go, but “fuzzy” was a good way to put it – and i don’t know about you, but if there was a slight chance i was gonna be kareis-ed, i wouldn’t play with it.

    #686217
    mt mehdi
    Member

    The people going are following their Daas Torah and we have no right to object.

    #686218
    Feif Un
    Participant

    emoticon613: Why can’t you argue with R’ Elyashiv and R’ Chaim Kanievsky? There are big Rabbonim who say it’s ok to go up.

    #686219
    WolfishMusings
    Participant

    but you can’t argue with rav elyashiv and rav kanievsky among others.

    Right. As I said earlier … “Without getting into arguments about whose rav is bigger than the other guy’s rav…” 🙂

    The Wolf

    #686220
    dvorak
    Member

    emoticon613- that’s exactly my point. I also don’t want to play around with issurei kares. But we can still be melamed zchus knowing that there are parts that are ok and maybe they think they know where they can go and where they can’t. As for you and I, do we have to trust that they got it right (seeing as they’re NOT R’ Elyashiv or R’ Kanievsky etc)? NO! I certainly won’t be taking my chances relying on these people. I just think that before howling our condemnation, we need to be aware that the issue is not as clear cut as it seems.

    #686221
    hereorthere
    Member

    Have Rav R’ Elyashiv or R’ Kanievsky said they ‘know’ where the boundaries are?

    To put it another way; Have they or would they: Map out a path for people to follow, where they pasken; “If you stay within the path we mapped out, you are fully permitted to go there.”?

    #686222
    webster
    Member

    If you read carefully what Rav Elyashav was reported as saying,then the whole debate discussed above of whether or not it’s Halachically permitted to enter Har Ha’Bayis is irrelevant.He clearly sressed that beyond the Halachic issues involved,that it is extremely provocative and liable to cause religous war and bloodshed.The group that ascended Har Ha’Bayis recently acted in a totally irresponsible manner with complete disregard to Jewish lives.It’s quite possible that they have the din of “Rodef” with all the significance of the term.

    #686223
    emoticon613
    Member

    wolf, these are the poskei hador. i don’t think that anyone can argue with them, i really don’t. it’s not a question of my rav or your rav…unless we involve the sphardim – anyone know what rav amar or rav ovadia yosef say on the subject?

    🙂

    #686224
    Feif Un
    Participant

    emoticon, read what I posted in the Daas Torah thread. There are no poskim that any other posek is not allowed to argue with. There are Rabbi’s who hold it’s allowed to go up on the Har Habayis.

    #686225
    yentish
    Participant

    um, all halacha aside for a minute- is anybody wondering what i’m wondering…..? WHO TOOK THE PICTURES? 🙂 (see YWN photo album)

    #686227
    emoticon613
    Member

    certainly not i!!!! 🙂

    #686228
    mosherose
    Member

    Theres no excuse to go up to the har habayis. Anyone that does is oiver a lav and is chayiv kares aside from the lav of lo sasuru.

    #686229
    Feif Un
    Participant

    mosherose: Are you a posek? I doubt it. Many knowledgeable Rabbonim have said that it’s ok to go up as long as you know where the off-limits areas are. Who are you to argue with them?

    #686230
    emoticon613
    Member

    let me just ask you a question, feif un! if you had a bowl of cereal on the table, which legitimately may or may not be poisonous – 50/50 – WOULD YOU EAT IT?! no! (i hope not) any place on har habayis (and NO ONE knows FOR SURE – including poskei hador) is a 50/50 percent chance of issur kareis…

    #686231
    Feif Un
    Participant

    emoticon: this isn’t a bowl of cereal that nobody knows for sure. There’s a rule of Torah lo Bashamayim he. If it’s paskened that the areas are ok, then they’re ok! There are big poskim to rely on. There’s no question of right or wrong when in comes to a psak halachah – the psak is, by definition, right!

    #686232
    emoticon613
    Member

    feif un – i’m asking my rav (who’s hard to get hold of, so sit tight!).

    #686233
    mosherose
    Member

    “Who are you to argue with them? “

    Im not arguing with them. Every single gadol in the world is.

    #686234
    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Mosherose, clearly not if there is more than one person who says yes. I know of at least 2 rabbonim who say its ok.

    #686235
    emoticon613
    Member

    may i ask which ones, or wouldn’t i know them?

    #686236
    mosherose
    Member

    “Mosherose, clearly not if there is more than one person who says yes. I know of at least 2 rabbonim who say its ok. “

    If their telling you to be oiver a lav of going on the harhabayis then tehir clearly not gedolim.

    #686237
    Feif Un
    Participant

    mosherose, who are you to make such a judgment? They clearly hold that it’s not a lav. Are you a posek that you can argue with them?

    #686238
    SJSinNYC
    Member

    Rabbi Moshe David Tendler

    Rabbi Chaim Wasserman

    #686239
    emoticon613
    Member

    sjs – you must be joking.

    #686241
    Feif Un
    Participant

    emoticon, why must it be a joke?

    #686242
    rt
    Participant

    interestingly, Korach v’chal adaso thought it was proper to be maktir ketores (the aida meant it l’shaim shamayim according to the Shlah haKadosh) and that it was ok to be cholek on the gadol haDoros Moshe Rabbeinu–seems like they were mistaken…

    #686243
    emoticon613
    Member

    sorry, i posted a whole long post that seems to have been edited out (as i thought it may be) so i’m going to have to formulate something that won’t be. but not now. no time.

    #686244
    mosherose
    Member

    “mosherose, who are you to make such a judgment? They clearly hold that it’s not a lav. Are you a posek that you can argue with them? “

    Im not arguing with them, the gedolim who said its assur are. Im just following the gedolim like your supposed too.

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