Home › Forums › Bais Medrash › Halocha Question – Violating a Website's Terms of Service
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April 11, 2013 12:29 am at 12:29 am #608937I can only tryMember
If someone deliberately violates a website’s terms of service, is he or she actually committing an avaira or issur (e.g. g’zaila)?
I don’t mean things that are clearly not allowed, whether written on a website or spoken aloud, such as nivul peh, loshon hora, sheker and the like. I’m specifically referring to TOS violations, such as creating multiple screen names. I’m also not referring to possibly legitimate reasons for creating additional screen names – for privacy’s sake, because the original password was forgotten, or just because someone wanted a “better” SN – but rather someone just doing it for their own amusement and/or to bother others.
Furthermore, I assume there’s an “I agree to abide by the conditions…” button that must be clicked – does clicking that button with the intention of not abiding by the rules constitute sheker? Do subsequent violations constitute additional “sheker” tallies?
Yes, obviously there is one specific poster who inspired this question, but it is a serious question, not just a “shtuch” at that poster.
Please post your halachic opinions and nothing else.
April 11, 2013 12:37 am at 12:37 am #944008☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantI assume there’s an “I agree to abide by the conditions…” button
1) Where?
2) I’ve never heard of “kinyan clickiya”.
April 11, 2013 12:39 am at 12:39 am #944009YW Moderator-73Moderatornow let’s see if he makes a new screen name to post on this thread
April 11, 2013 12:42 am at 12:42 am #944010☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantHe’s been quite busy. The mods were asleep for a bit, but seem right on top of it now.
April 11, 2013 12:43 am at 12:43 am #944011ubiquitinParticipantgezeila?
what was stolen?
April 11, 2013 12:44 am at 12:44 am #944012rationalfrummieMemberwell i dont know what the status of a website is, but the minhag hamakom on ywn is not to engage in such behaviors. If people do, then they are violating the minhag of this ‘makom,’ Perhaps a website’s terms and conditions are applicable to the dinim of a particular country. in that case, dina d’malchusah dinah.
April 11, 2013 12:48 am at 12:48 am #944013I can only tryMemberDaasYochid–
1) Where?
It’s been a while since I signed up, so I don’t recall where, how and if it exists. I assume it does, perhaps as a check box. Certainly, the site owner posts this rule clearly.
2) I’ve never heard of “kinyan clickiya”.
Sefer Ahavas Kessef, siman shin koof raish.
April 11, 2013 12:51 am at 12:51 am #944014☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantThe minhag hamakom is to violate every single rule in the “[sticky] [closed] ****RULES OF THE YWN COFFEE ROOM – PLEASE READ**** thread.
April 11, 2013 12:51 am at 12:51 am #944015I can only tryMemberubiquitin-
“what was stolen?“
That’s my question. Is using this site in a way its owner prohibits g’zaila?
April 11, 2013 12:54 am at 12:54 am #944016☕ DaasYochid ☕ParticipantICOT,
1) Maybe I’ll try it. The thread I referred to is not required to be clicked on before signing on.
2) 🙂
April 11, 2013 12:59 am at 12:59 am #944017YW Moderator-73Moderatorwe haven’t been sleeping, he’s just been making it easier by not masking his ip.
April 11, 2013 1:01 am at 1:01 am #944018I can only tryMemberDaasYochid-
“The minhag hamakom is to violate every single rule in the “[sticky] [closed] ****RULES OF THE YWN COFFEE ROOM – PLEASE READ**** thread.“
A valid point. As far as this particular policy too, there seems to be some flexibility.
The difference I see here is similar to the difference between jaywalking and running a red light at a busy intersection – they’re both on the books, but one is clearly intended to be enforced while the other isn’t (which is also a teretz I saw to a “dina d’malchusa” question about jaywalking and other similarly unenforced laws).
April 11, 2013 1:10 am at 1:10 am #944019I can only tryMemberA more direct/coherent way of putting the question(s) might be:
1) Is a hezek being done by this behavior?
2) If the answer to “1” is “yes”, is compensation owed?
3) If the answer to “1” is “no”, which (if any) lavim are being violated?
4) In a similar vein, if I allow people to cut thru my property as long as they don’t make too much noise and disturb me or my neighbors while doing so, what (if anything) are they oiver on if they deliberately make a racket while on my property?
April 11, 2013 1:21 am at 1:21 am #944020☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant73, yes, but as he points out, he has a signature style.
April 11, 2013 1:50 am at 1:50 am #944021YW Moderator-73Moderatortrue true
April 11, 2013 2:42 am at 2:42 am #944022Ðash®ParticipantFurthermore, I assume there’s an “I agree to abide by the conditions…” button that must be clicked
Not on this site. It asks for a username, email address and a CAPTCHA, and then emails a password to the email address.
Also the Terms Of Use are located at http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/policy.php.
April 11, 2013 2:49 am at 2:49 am #944023yytzParticipantI’ve wondered about the related question: what about when you’re downloading software, and to complete the download it says, click here to agree you’ve read the 20 pages of rules, when of course you’ve never read the rules and neither has anyone else except the person who wrote them. It basically forces everyone to lie. We are supposed to distance ourselves from falsehood. But is it really halachically wrong?
April 11, 2013 2:55 am at 2:55 am #944024DY2MemberICOT, I opened this new username, and never agreed to any terms.
April 11, 2013 2:57 am at 2:57 am #944025☕ DaasYochid ☕Participant(Yes, that was me.)
April 11, 2013 3:43 am at 3:43 am #944026I can only tryMemberrationalfrummie-
I missed your post earlier.
Hmmmm, that’s an interesting way of looking at it. I think that is an accurate way of describing how it looks to us, but not necessarily how it is halachikly.
April 11, 2013 11:14 am at 11:14 am #944027I can only tryMemberDY2-
DaasYochid-
Thank you for pointing out that during the registration process there is no “I agree to abide by the rules” button, checkbox or the like required when getting a SN for this site.
I had assumed there was, and I stand corrected.
There is no explicit “al tnai” to abide by the rules upon registration and therefore (at least as far as I can see), there is no sheker when signing up with the intention of violating the site’s rules.
yytz–
I don’t think it’s a problem, because there’s no real expectation that people read thru hundreds of lines containing dense legalities. It’s simply verbiage the company’s legal department came up with to protect themselves.
I recently saw a news article about a company deliberately burying and hiding onerous changes to their TOS within the legal mumbo-jumbo. IMO this is actually somewhat dishonest on the companies’ part. (I’m not 100% positive I correctly remember which company it was, so I won’t name it, but I believe it was a cell phone service provider.)
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