Halachos of Eruv – Disqualifications

The point?

If I’m not mistaken, the 600k requirement for RHR is the daas yachid of Rashi, and most eruvin rely on this. Today, in my old age teshuva, I rely on nobody’s eruv, after being a checker and sometimes repairer for many years,and having developed certain sensitivities. Where I live, many places are tel hamislaket.

The 600k according to Rav Moshe’s chiddush is the number of people living in the city. Most people understand it as the number of people traveling through the street in question.

I think the language seems to be difficult according to Reb Moshe. Shishim Ribu bokekin bo seems to imply movement.

One other question I have in general is why the requirement for lechis on utility poles. Why does the pole itself not serve as the lechi? The nailing of lechis to the poles is what causes all the eruv fights among the non-religious, etc. Any mevinim here who can explain? I know the wire must be directly over the lechi, but doesn’t that usually happen with the pole itself?

there’s always been a huge machlokes here with the Flatbush eruv!

gavra_at_work,

L’Hagdil Torah.

Because the RBSO said “learn my Torah”.

And this way the Olam knows the issues involved, whether they use it or not.

I appreciate your opening this thread, and your reasons for doing so.

Unfortunately, some people seem to feel that if someone expresses an opinion in halacha, it’s just to degrade anyone who disagrees or follows a different opinion.

@ Pashuteh Yid

Often the wire does go directly over the top of the pole. Sometimes, however it does not; instead, it goes on the side of the pole or on the crossbar. Therefore, in order to create tzuros ha’pesach, you need to have a lechi that comes directly underneath the wire. An excellent sefer on this is Rabbi Yosef Gavriel Bechhoffer’s “The Contemporary Eruv: Eruvin in Major Metropolitan Areas”.

Daas Yochid; We have to thank GAW for opening this thread and thereby showing (Indirectly) what a Talmid Chacham he really is.

Good point.

Some people (especially the ladies) can’t keep up with the terminology. (It almost prompted me to open another (Sub)-thread.).

You’re right, but in fairness, I can’t follow the makeup and hair threads either 🙂

Actually, I think it’s good that people should know (both men and ladies) that many of the issues in which we get so caught up in the “politics” are actually complicated halachic issues.

But there is one point in your post that we should all strive to follow. Namely. That if I follow the Daas Torah of one particular Godol, I should still respect the opinions of the other Torah Scholars. Same goes for Chassidus. Everyone can follow any Chassidic Rebbi at the same time respecting all of the others. This would be a major contribution towards Shalom and would, hopefully bring Moshiach closer.

!???

Charlie,

Thanks for your post; I see I had a typo; according to M.B. a slight majority hold that 600k is not necessary for a rh”r.

Unfortunately, I can’t follow your link (filter glitch). Does Chacham Ovadiah agree or disagree with the M.B.?

Daas Yochid,

He counted 7 who do not require 600,000; 12 who do.

Charlie,

Thanks.

R’ Menachem Ziemba Zt”l H”yd?

gavra-at-work,thanks for the mature thread !!

May I say at the outset that ,in past times in cities throughout europe, there was never a problem because there was not one street that was sixteen amos wide. If you ever visit Europe and go to the old centers, you will see that the streets were always narrow- never wide (like the Old city in Yerushalaim).Also, not one street was ever “mefulosh”-going straigth across the city -or at least having both entrance and exit lined up. The problem arose in the large squares and in the new cities. This is where the hetter of the 600,000 arose- if the other freeing details were absent. The later Poskin througout Europe took the view that we need “shshim ribui” to make a full reshus horabim and every city in europe had an eiruv,including vilna, i think! until the twentieth century, there was barely a city in the world that had six hundred thousand together- (remember, they must pass in one day!)and so ,virtually every city had an eiruv. Today, in cities like new york and london, this problem has arisen. By and large,however, it seems that the majority of later poskim held the view that you need six hundred thousand. BTW- there were many,many rabbonim in Warsaw-not only R’menachen Zembe HYD who, by the way, did not occupy a pulpit.

Today, of course,

charliehall- you (almost) prove my point. The vast majority of cities (and villages) were small. Only very few cities had a population large enough to bring this question into play. And remember that those 600,000 had to be in ONE place during that day. That clearly would be the requisite condition. It is highly unlikely that even in Warsaw, ALL the population passed through one city fare during one day. Today, of course, it is more prevalent in the world’s largest cities and this is why in New York, London and others, the eiruv is problematic and relies upon other kulos.

AviE, are you a talmid of Rabbi Bechhofer? What is his background in these inyanim?

gavra_at_work:

See http://eruvonline.blogspot.com/2009/11/rashi-and-criterion-of-shishim-ribo.html

rabbiofberlin:

Actually the machlokas between the Bais Ephraim and the Mishkenos Yaakov (which was about two hundred years ago) was regarding this fact, most city streets were over 16 amos wide so they had to rely on shishim ribo. There were cities prior to the 20th century that contained shishim ribo such as London and Paris (if you want a list I can look it up).

“And remember that those 600,000 had to be in ONE place during that day. That clearly would be the requisite condition. It is highly unlikely that even in Warsaw, ALL the population passed through one city fare during one day. Today, of course, it is more prevalent in the world’s largest cities and this is why in New York, London and others, the eiruv is problematic and relies upon other kulos.”

This is not true. The ONLY place in New York City that has 600,000 people in one day is Penn Station, which is indoors. And even that is misleading, because that is the passenger count: Most of those passengers actually are double counted because they arrive in the morning and return home in the evening. 600,000 people is an enormous number.

More on the George Washington Bridge: It has fourteen lanes and still isn’t anywhere close to having 600,000 people. Ordinary surface streets simply don’t have the capacity to have 600,000, even theoretically.

“There were cities prior to the 20th century that contained

shishim ribo such as London and Paris “

Manhattan had > 600,000 people before 1860; Brooklyn (still an independent city) around 1880; Chicago by 1890.

Charlie: Do you know how many people drive on the major roads in NY, like the FDR or the BQE. It may be more than the GWB even though the GWB is denser, because they are longer and most people don’t drive the entire length.

I tried googling, but I’m not good enough at it.

charliehall: “Manhattan had > 600,000 people before 1860; Brooklyn (still an independent city) around 1880; Chicago by 1890.”

I know that there are other cities as well. I believe that Bombay had more than shishim ribo and I remember that some say Rome had in the time of the Mishnah at least shishim ribo, but I have to look it up.

popa,

The NY State Department of Transportation has a new traffic data viewer! Formerly you had to page through volumes of numbers to get the information you wanted, and to know the unpublished route numbers for some major roads. The busiest part of the BQE (between the Brooklyn Battery Tunnel and the Prospect Expressway) gets about 170,000 vehicles/day and the busiest part of the FDR Drive (Upper East Side) about 180,000 vehicles/day. Neither have much bus traffic. Those two roads just don’t have enough lanes to handle enough traffic to get up to 600,000.

The Lincoln Tunnel gets about 115,000 vehicles a day, and unlike every other major highway, many of them are buses. But remembering that most of those are commuters who are double counted it is doubtful that even it would have 600,000. And it is really three separate roads, not one. (Three tunnels, each with its own approach roads on the Manhattan side.)

The busiest section of the Long Island Expressway is right near Kew Gardens Hills, just east of the Van Wyck Expressway, with about 185,000 vehicles a day. And you can carry across it on Shabat!

For the sake of the OP

The oilam has left out 50% of the disucssion i.e. Asi Rabbim umivatli mehcitzta.

In discussion on the topic of the halachic feasability of city wide eruvin the two central questions are

1. Definition of R”H

2. Asi Rabim on a tzuras Hapesach