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Is someone allowed to go to a bar for a work meeting? What are the halochos of kashurus for alcohol and the glasses it is served in
Reputable business is rarely conducted at a “bar” (unless you are a lawyer, and that sort of “bar” doesn’t serve food and drinks). So your question is really about going to a treff restaurant.
People vary over glass utensils. You can always ask for disposables, or bring your own, or drink directly from a can or bottle.
Most frum people accept most beer and some stronger drinks with a hecksher. If you want, feel free to ask for a specifically kosher brand. Cans of coke are probably available everywhere (they are also used for mixed drinks, as well as those who drink them straight).
Doing business at a bar probably raises serious questions of reasonable accomodation if you have any Muslim, Mormon, and conservative Protestant co-workers, all of whom don’t hold by drinking alcohol (most of our gedolim only object to alcohol in mixed, meaning with goyim, company). Asking for a soft drink projects an image of being a sober resonsible employee. Feel free to bemoan that you can’t join in getting soused (so you get a reputation for piety, but being a nice guy – they might order a Sam Adams for your next office party).
If the bar features underdressed women or other nefarious behavior, that raises other shailohs under halacha (as well as the goyim’s anti-discrimination laws).
There is nothing inherently halachically objectionable about going into a bar.
Obviously if going in means that you are required to bow down to an idol or commit other issurim, the halacha will not allow it. But we are talking about just a bar.
Drinking is not a problem, though Sephardim have to deal with the fact that the Mechaber rules (contrary to the minhag accepted by the Rema) that one may not drink at a non-Jewish establishment.
Obviously when I say drinking is not a problem, I am not referring to non-kosher wine or anything else one would not drink outside of the bar. I am talking about a beer, a coke, a shot of Bourbon, etc.
The glasses are all kosher.
There is a serious Issur D’rabannan of going to a bar to drink with non-Jews.
Source?
I think this is some kind of modern idea. Back in the old days, people would have drinks and do business all the time. I think the idea of meeting at a tavern is just fine. In fact, I just read a couple of books about stories of famous rabbis and I recall several instances that occurred in taverns.
“Reputable business is rarely conducted at a ‘bar’ (unless you are a lawyer, and that sort of ‘bar’ doesn’t serve food and drinks). So your question is really about going to a treff [sic] restaurant.”
This is not true. Many people hold business meetings in bars, or sometimes a firm will hold a social get-together which is technically not mandatory, but it will look bad if you don’t come. The most common example I can think of would be a journalist who takes his/her interview subject to a bar (a more casual atmosphere to make the interviewee feel at ease and open up to the questions).
If you recall, the Water Cafe, a swanky nonkosher restaurant, was described in the media as a place where lots of frum people went on shidduch dates (they’d get drinks at the bar).
Granted, a bar atmosphere probably isn’t appropriate for a religious person. But, beer, whiskey, vodka, etc. are all kosher.
there is a pischei teshuva in yoreh deah about this
Outsider: In the old days, there were no restaurants. Restaurants are a mid-19th century creation. Taverns in the past were similar to restaurants today. And until the 19th century, non-alcoholic drinks tended to be fatal (this is pre-pasteurization). Safe drinking water and soft drinks (which are made from water) only came about in the late 19th century or 20th century (and in some countries, have yet to occur). In the USA, drinks such as low alcohol beer and slightly alcoholic cider were common.
jewishfeminist02: A journalist taking a source to a bar to get them drunk, or to have a clandestine meeting, is NOT a reputable business meeting. A meeting typically involves multiple people, which requires a table, and once you have a table (as opposed to bar stools), it’s a restaurant, meaning your question becomes, how to act in a treiff (non-kosher) restaurant.
@Sam2, the op said going for a work meeting, not going to drink with goyim.
heretohelp: If the work meeting involved getting alcoholic drinks with non-Jews then the issue still exists.
woman.
Tosafot here, DH V’Tarvehu, say that we never find that sheichar is assur anywhere in the mishna, or in the beraisa, but that this gezeira may have only started in the days of the amoraim.
The gemara says that Rav Papa and Rav Achai would drink beer from a goy on the porch or somewhere away from the goyim. Tosfos says that this issur wouldn’t apply if you rented space from the goyim, since that is them considered the Jew’s home. Thus, Tosafot hold that the problem here is chatnut. If there is no issue of chatnut, you can take a drink in a bar. Likewise, the Rosh, AZ perek beit, siman tet vav, says that taking a drink among goyim in a way that is not be keviut, but in a way that’s k’derech arai, happenstance, is acceptable. The Mechaber writes (YD siman kuf yud daled, seif aleph) that all beer of goyim, whether of dates, or tevua, or honey, etc. is asur mishum chatnut, ve eina assur ela be makom micharoso. But if you bring it back home and drink it there, it’s mutar. He says it’s assur to drink the beer in a place where goyim fraternize. There’s certainly a chashash of chatnut in drinking out in a bar. The ShA says that there can be exceptions to drinking with goyim, such as if the place where you’re drinking isn’t kevua to social drinking, or if it’s done k’derech arai, you avoid problems. But social drinking among goyim is assur mishum chatnut.
Likewise, the Rosh discusses drinking a honey-based beverage made by goyim (non-alcoholic) among goyim, and he says it’s forbidden due to chatnut. Therefore, fraternizing in a coffee house would be problematic, according to this understanding. The gist of this Rosh is that there is a serious chashash for socializing with goyim over drinks, which has an intimacy and certain social element to it. ShA says that this non-alcoholic honey beer is also forbidden, due to chatnut.
However, the Rema says that people in Poland/Ashkenaz were decidedly lenient on this matter. They’d drink non-alcoholic beer among goyim, and if we thus accept the Rema, then social activities involving drinks (such as coffee, etc.) should be ok.
The Yad Ephraim, however, speaks within a more relevant context, I feel. He quotes R’ Yaakov Emden, who forbids Jews from drinking coffee with goyim. Granted, in Europe, especially places like Vienna, the 17th and 18th century was the height of haute coffee house culture. People socialized, read, organized, and did all kinds of things in the coffee houses, which were the center of social life. Drinking coffee k’derech keva, he says is an issue. Pri Megadim holds like the Rema. The Chayei Adam says drinking coffee among goyim is a bad idea, and someone should avoid these situations, and Aruch haShulchan says it’s commendable to avoid social drinking. R’ Herschel Schachter holds le ma’aseh that it’s assur to also socially drink (even coffee) in a place like Starbuck’s, kal ve chomer, a bar.
If one drinks k’derech keva, that seems problematic, but if one grabs a drink on the run, that’s seemingly acceptable. In the case of a person on a shidduch date, or doing business, I don’t see how chatnut would apply, since the person is in a bar not to socialize, but to either date a Jew, or talk business, or to complete an interview. Going to a bar on a Saturday night where there are a bunch of singles and a lot of pritzut is a scene that Jews should avoid, for sure.
I am pretty sure there is a difference in Halacha between wine and other alchoholic drinks.
However, the Rema says that people in Poland/Ashkenaz were decidedly lenient on this matter. They’d drink non-alcoholic beer among goyim, and if we thus accept the Rema, then social activities involving drinks (such as coffee, etc.) should be ok.
That is misleading. The Rema does not distinguish between alcoholic beverages and non-alcoholic beverages; he distinguishes between date beer and everything else.
According to the Rema, everything that is kosher is okay, except for date beer.
If someone were to claim l’halacha that a bar is assur, but hide the fact that according to the same reasoning Starbucks is assur, they would be arguing disingenuously, since they know full well that it is likely their audience would not accept their argument knowing it pertains to coffee shops as well.
“A journalist taking a source to a bar to get them drunk, or to have a clandestine meeting, is NOT a reputable business meeting. A meeting typically involves multiple people, which requires a table, and once you have a table (as opposed to bar stools), it’s a restaurant, meaning your question becomes, how to act in a treiff (non-kosher) restaurant.”
I didn’t say it was to get them drunk or to have a clandestine meeting. Let’s say I am writing an article about Sudoku and other puzzles, and I want to interview some people who are geniuses and do these difficult puzzles all the time. The trouble is that these people are somewhat reticent, and they don’t have much to say to me. So am I going to invite them to come into my office to talk? No, I won’t get anything out of them that way. I’ll probably suggest that we meet somewhere public, somewhere casual. Perhaps a bar. And I’ll probably want to meet with them individually so that they don’t intimidate each other. Perfectly reputable, perfectly businesslike (remember, I am getting paid for this article). I’m not trying to hide what I’m doing or to get the guy to drink so he’ll talk; I just want him to feel comfortable, and this atmosphere itself makes him comfortable even before he has a drink at all.
Incidentally, a “meeting” can consist of two people, and three or more people can congregate in a bar sitting on bar stools and have a meeting.
He mentions honey beer, IIRC (ShA mentions sheichar shel temarim and sheichar shel dvash, and I’m pretty sure he’s talking about sheichar shel dvash). The Rema mentions this davka, and indicates that it is mutar for Jews to drink this among gentiles. The Mechaber says all kinds of beer are asur to drink with goyim, and the Rema says that people in his country were lenient on drinking alcoholic beevrages of honey and grains. And I did say that going to a coffee house, per this logic, is asur, since that would pose a problem of chatnut, as well. The Rema says explicitly that people would drink sheichar akum shel dvash, and even barley beer, also.
And Rav Schachter actually does forbid hanging out in Starbucks. However, very few people converse in Starbucks. Most are on their phones or on their computers, and in NYC, there’s very little socializing going on.
Need to be careful with “new” variations. Was at a diiner by a hotel restarunt/bar drinking my bottle of beer and looked at the cocktail menu…..”Bacon infused rye whiskey”!! so if I would have asked for a rye whiskey at the bar……
Also bartenders seem generally interested when I ask to see the bottle and show them the hechsher….
New bar games
1) guess which bottles have hechshers
2) use your yamulkah on the twist off bottle caps – the bartenders crack up especially when set up correctly 🙂
You mean like how to melt it down into a lump of metal?!?! I didnt know there were halachos on metal bars….you learn something new every day…
How about a drink with cut lemon in a bar?
Once, on a date with a bachur who is brilliant in halacha, the bartender put a cut lemon in our sodas. He asked them to make it again without the lemon.
The Mechaber says all kinds of beer are asur to drink with goyim, and the Rema says that people in his country were lenient on drinking alcoholic beevrages of honey and grains.
If you look up the source of this opinion and how they understand the Gemara in Avodah Zarah you will see that they hold the only thing that was assered was date beer. And possibly fig beer.
Torah613Torah –
Mistama there were oisvorfs who told the bachur that it is completely mutar, but he was machmir anyway because of his great yiras shomayim.
Interesting topic for a sefer.
Once, on a date with a bachur who is brilliant in halacha, the bartender put a cut lemon in our sodas. He asked them to make it again without the lemon.
What kind of sheigetz takes a date to a bar?
PBA: Lounges can have bartenders too. A bartender just means that the place has a bar, not that the place was a bar.
Besides, Torah seems relatively progressive. Maybe she took her date to the bar.
has a bar, was a bar. If a place has a nazi with a gun, does it matter if the place itself is a nazi with a gun?
I also cannot understand how it is a Yeshivish thing to take a girl to a lounge on a date. I cannot think of too many places that are more inappropriate to do so. A lounge is a fancy bar. THAT IS ALL. I am NOT yeshivish, and I still disapprove of such a venue for a frum couple to go on a date. A lot of schmutz and arayos-dikeh things go on in such places, with men picking up women (married or not). THAT’S a place to send our frum kids to get to know each other????????
Popa
Puff puff pass?
Lemon Wedge in a drink….
Someone mentioned that they dated a Bochur who was “brilliant” in halacha and he reordered the drink without a lemon. With all due respect to his brilliance one is allowed to have a drink with a lemon wedge in a non-kosher bar without any issue whatsoever. A lemon is considered a “Dovor Charif” (sharp item) and when a non-kosher knife is used to cut the lemons the first lemon attains the status of non-kosher from the knife thereby rendering all other lemons cut as having being “kosher” with regards to the first lemon they are generally placed in a bucket to be used during the entire day and the first lemon would most prob be “botul beshisshim” taking it a little further most reputable bars for health reason are required to use specific utensils for specific tasks i.e the knife used for cutting the lemon is the same every day, and generally speaking those utensils dont leave the bar area ever. So the brilliant halachic bochur you dated was not so brillaint rather just being foolishly stringent over nothing and didnt learn even the most basic concepts in yoreh deah.
Oomis
I guess the idea is to start exposing them to the world in this way. In all seriousness you are so right. The pritzus in some of these places is pretty bad and its a bad idea. Not sure why we do it.
Funny thing that, everyone talking about ordering a Coke. I was recently in a country where kosher food was completely unavailable, so drinking the beer (which was brewed at the restaurant) was actually halachically more permissible than drinking the Coke, as beer brewing relies on a very specific set of ingredients.
The lengths some people go to get a date…
Yserbius123: Which country?
oomis: +1
Lubliner: You couldn’t be more incorrect. 1) You are making a whole host of assumptions to assume everything is kosher 2) the same knife could be used for other non-kosher food items 3) even if there are some local municipal board of health requirements on utensil usage, they are infrequently enforced, and when they are the penalties are extremely light, and the bar can and will get away with whatever they do and consider a $75 ticket a business expense 4) the first lemon is not batul bshishim if that’s the lemon you get.
nossb: <REDACTED FOR FEAR OF REVEALING MY IDENTITY> Let’s just say it was a moderate sized Asian country where the entire Jewish population consists of a Chabad Shaliach and a Morrocan guy who runs a cigar store.
oomis:
I think you are misjudging the nature of these lounges. I invite you to visit any of the popular NY dating lounges with your husband, order a couple of seltzers, watch the yeshivish dates, and judge for yourself if the venue is inappropriate.
Try the Marriott Marque, it is very popular. Sit both in the area up the escalators, and in the revolving lounge on top. (I know much better places to go, but I shan’t be spilling my secrets here.)
With all due respect to his brilliance one is allowed to have a drink with a lemon wedge in a non-kosher bar without any issue whatsoever. A lemon is considered a “Dovor Charif” (sharp item) and when a non-kosher knife is used to cut the lemons the first lemon attains the status of non-kosher from the knife thereby rendering all other lemons cut as having being “kosher” with regards to the first lemon they are generally placed in a bucket to be used during the entire day and the first lemon would most prob be “botul beshisshim”
Sorry, that makes no sense. You aren’t even using terms correctly. You mean batul b’rov.
I know someone who has a nasty habit of hanging out in popular frum dating lounges to take in how many dates he can spot.
I know this is an old thread, but I’m wondering if RebDaniel or someone else can clarify why the assumption is that shechar shel devash in Sh.A. is non-alcoholic, and therefore raises a question regarding other non-alcoholic drinks, such as coffee.
The Rosh indeed says that the mishna that permits “honey” is referring to a honey-based beverage, since the gemara implies that it is boiled. However, in Tosfot Harosh, he refers to said beverage as ????, which I presume is mead, which is made with fermented honey and is alcoholic.
The Radvaz, Chida and others also appear to prohibit drinking coffee in coffee houses. However, it isn’t clear what the source for this is as the gemara seems to prohibit alcoholic drinks.
I have a question on a Shach I hope someone can help me with
in 123:6 in hilchos yayin Nesech on the Mechaber who says Yayin mevushal is mutar the Shach in 6 says “Even drinking and even lechatchila it is mutar to drink with goyim” (my translation)
The halachos of drinking with Goyim are in 114 because of chasnus, I do not recall Yayin mevushal being allowed there. The issur of DRINKING stam yaynam is also becasue of chasnus so the two arent completely separate. But there even beer is assur with Goyim, seems strange that yayin mevushal is more kuladig than beer and also I didnt see nayone there mention it.
Am I reading the shach wrong?
Thank you
http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=9146&st=&pgnum=54I think the Shach just means it’s muttar even though you are l’chatchilah you are getting yourself in a situation where a goy will touch it. He refers to the gemara with Shmuel and Avlet, which doesn’t seem to be dealing with a case of b’makom m’chiraso.
thank you!
However the issur of drinking wine with goyim isnt limited to makom michiraso per se, even social drinking is assur eg see bach 112 in goy’s house always assur in Jew’s house muttar only if Rov Yisroel
Though you are still right.
I did some research over Shabbos
Rambam Machalos issurus 17:10 says beferish that the issur to drink at Goy’s party applies even to yayin mevushal
The beis yosef in 112 says Rambam who goes on to say if Rov yisroel muttar, B”Y says his source is that Gemara where we see their are instances where social drinking with goyim is muttar, namely if rov yisroel. But he makes no mention of it being allowed becasue of yayin mevushal.bottom line though is as youve said, Yayin mevushal has nothing to do with drinking with Goyim. The shach must mean exactly what you say.
thanks again.
The mods took down 2 great jokes about Jews and bars that I posted. They – the jokes, not the mods – didn’t address the difficult halachic issues, but they were funny and appropriate.
So these 2 moderators from YWN walked into a bar ….
ouch!
Maybe try posting them in the joke thread.
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