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It’s okay, though, to criticize someone for being critical?
newbee,
“My point is simple: the idea of indulging in gashmius in the name of ruchnuius is wrong. Period. End of story.”
Aside from you, nobody claimed that the purpose of the dinner was to indulge in gashmius in the name of ruchnius.
Criticism is not something people other than me are allowed to do.
newbee
In spite of asking where did I lose you twice, you still didnt answer. This isnt an abstract conversation about “the idea of indulging in gashmius in the name of ruchnuius is wrong.” This is about a very specific event which you criticized very strongly. I oulined step by step why you are wrong. With which point do you disagree
1) No issurim were involved in the dinner
2) There is a level to strive towards to avoid Gashmiyus
3) This level is dependent on the people involved.
4) The people attending this dinner are not on your lofty level. OR more to the point – you dont know if they are
5) Giving mussar to people regarding a level they arent holding by is inappropriate
6) You criticized the dinner
7) Your criticism is inappropriate
?
“you just dont like me personally,”
I dont know you, I bet in real life you are a nice rational person.
“I did not criticize anyone specifically. I did nothing inappropriate.”
This is a non-sequitor. There are times where criticizing groups can be inapropriate
A catered dinner of exotic foods is an indulgence in gashmius.
PHIL- I personally would never attend this kind of event, in part for that very reason. But that’s my personal view and I defend the choice of any Jew who wishes to attend such an event without being rebuked for it.
Great! We’re making headway here. I think I agree that people shouldn’t be rebuked about this, sure thang.
Btw being the great nephew of a big person is by no means a haskamah.
Newbee with pleasure!
1)I disagree slightly with 1 since by definition “extremely extremely exotic excessive, lavish and indulgent” is subjective but I still follow you.
2) is silly since “halachic” does not imply “related to Torah values” But I do see ow reosanble people can disagree, sos till with you.
3) I agree with, though see #1 and 2
4) Is where I lose you, since while the CONCEPT applies to every man, the practice is different. For some it is eating Meat ever, for some more than once a week etc… Without knowing the people involved how do you know what level they are on
Your turn….
Newbee
I just had another thought you are missing a step someplace just because something is a torah value doesn’t mean if someone doesn’t follow it he deserves criticism.
For example I assume you agree their is a level of learning torah every free second. That doesnt automatically mean anybody who spends anytime on ywn is automatically a batlan. It depends on their level, and without knowing the persin youd be wrong to criticize.
And along the lines of your number 3 above… dont get me started on calling “batalah world news” by the name “yeshiva world news”.
(That last line was a joke btw)
newbee: 2) this dinner was named a halachic dinner- which implies it is a dinner related to Torah values.
No, it implies it’s related to Halachah. Most (maybe all) of the foods on the menu have some sort of Sugya related to them. Maybe that’s why it’s called a Halachic dinner.
newbee,
“PS, make sure to come because there will be a shiur given! So its all good”
I’m not disagreeing that it was an elegant dinner but nobody, aside from you, ever billed it as a ruchniyus event. And ubiquitin is correct, for one person eating steak every day may be nivul birshus hatorah, while for another it may be putting butter on his bread. If we picked apart your entire menu (still waiting for it), I’m sure we could find items that would be considered nivul for some, even if you decide that they’re not nivul for you. Kedoshim Tihyu is a personal standard that individual Jews must set for themselves without criticism from others.
oyyoyyoy,
“Btw being the great nephew of a big person is by no means a haskamah”
I never claimed that R. Meir Soloveichik’s being a great nephew was a haskamah. My point was that he, a talmid chacham and yorei shamayim in his own right, would never use his great uncle to “push liberal agendas that are detrimental to authentic Jewish practice”.
newbee,
The fact is, there are many MO, OO or whatever you want to call them who have attempted to use Rov Yoseph Ber to push liberal agendas that are detrimental to authentic Jewish practice i.e the masorah.
While the dinner in question may have been pushing something (what that was seems to be the debate in this thread), given that veal and fois gras were on the menu, it certainly wasn’t a liberal agenda!
“A catered dinner of exotic foods is an indulgence in gashmius.”
Then I guess you have a problem with many weddings, organizational dinners including those for the finest yeshivos and mosdos and just about every yom tov program available to the general public.
What is liberal about animal brains, kosher lizards and some of the other unpronounceable items on the menu? How does serving it or indulging in it further a liberal agenda?
newbee
to be clear you are dead wrong on point 2 as Sam2 points out, I just see how you were led to your mistake.
Again I’m npot saying there is no level to strive towards to avoid this meal. I am questioning the Tochacha for those not on the level. (much like critiscing spending time on ywn instead of learning)
Now having explained precisely in your mistaken train of thought where I lose you, Here is mine For the 4th? 5th? time:
1) No issurim were involved in the dinner
2) There is a level to strive towards to avoid Gashmiyus
3) This level is dependent on the people involved.
4) The people attending this dinner are not on your lofty level. OR more to the point – you dont know if they are
5) Giving mussar to people regarding a level they arent holding by is inappropriate
6) You criticized the dinner
7) Your criticism is inappropriate
Where Do I lose you.
I’ll even help you analyze each step:
1) I think we agree on this, I beleive you said so explicitly.
2) We deffinitly agree
3) Do you beleive everybody is at the same level? (Obviously not)
4) Do you know the level the people at the dinner are on? (Obviously not)
5) Do you think it is appropriate to give people mussar regarding a level they arent on? (Proably not?)
6) We arent disagreeing on this one.
7) Is the only conclusion I reach following the train of thought above.
With which point do you disagree?
newbee,
So now you’re calling an entire group of Jews you never met, “gluttons”?
The words “?????? ?????? ??? ?????? ??? ???” do not refer to someone who eats a single, sumptuous meal but to someone who makes a regular practice of doing so.
Although perhaps, for someone on your high level a single, sumptuous meal would qualify as “nivul”. The panel will decide once you post what you have consumed over the past week.
So many untruths, where to begin?
Begin by pointing out that newbee did not call people gluttons, he called the menu gluttonous.
Continue by pointing out the hypocrisy of posters hypercriticizing him for being critical.
Then remind everyone that he is not so much criticizing the fact that people enjoy a good meal, but that by calling it “halachic”, they are idealizing it when it should not be idealized.
Once again, aside from newbee, nobody idealized the meal.
The promotion merely stated, “Rabbi Soloveichik will entertain and enlighten with a special lecture over dinner. We’ll learn about some far out there kosher foods, and we’ll eat a few of them too.”
It’s called a “Halakhic Dinner” because halachos are taught about what is eaten.
DY
“Continue by pointing out the hypocrisy of posters hypercriticizing him for being critical.”
Thats silly. I dont think anybody here said criticizing is wrong. In fact a thread was started as an ofshoot of this to that affect.
The only question is whether criticism is appropriate in this case.
Ubiquitin, http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/coffeeroom/topic/halachick-dinner-what-do-you-think-about-it/page/3#post-570296, for example.
Phil, calling it “halachic” makes it sound like a mitzvah.
Newbee, I haven’t been to either, but this doesn’t sound like the same thing as mesorah dinners.
DY
I dont follow, in the very post you cite, I mention Tochahcah is sometimes appropriate. My only critique is that in THIS case tochacha for a musar-ideal when you dont know the people involved or the level they are at is inappropriate.
Newbee
“No no no- you are cheating. I never referred to giving tochacha in my list. Thats not #4.”
I’m not sure what you mean. I know you never reffered to it, yet that is the main thing (only thing?) we disagree on namely: Is tochacha appropriate regarding mussar ideals when people are not on the level.
I have been saying this over and over.
Granted as DY points out, there were some posts where you indicate that your main concern was the “hypocricy” of this dinner. But that was not your inital post nor your only concern: “At first I thought it was a joke, but then I realized it was probably geared towards very wealthy MO BTs who love expensive food and Rov Joseph Ber Soloveitchik (in that order)- so then I said yea, I guess this makes sense.”
“#4 is… the concept of nuval bereshus hatorah applies to the every-man, and is not limited to the most elite of Jewish people.”
Depending on their level, what is one person’s nivul is another’s tuesday. Keep in mind this event isnt a every day event. Like it says on their website “Thank you to our sponsors and patrons whose generosity enabled us to make this UNIQUE OPPURTUNITYy as inclusive as possible:”
Seems silly to describe this as nivul bershus hatorah (depending on their level)
newbee,
“A previous dinner similar to this was titled ‘An Education with Every Bite!’ Another one was titled ‘A dinner of extreme halachic importance!'”
R. Meir Soloveichik, whom you named when you began this thread, did not promote it that way.
DY,
“calling it ‘halachic’ makes it sound like a mitzvah.”
Maybe in your mind it does but for those who read the actual promotion, it doesn’t. So this entire thread was started to criticize unknown Jews over what one word may or may not convey and what a group of people should or should not be eating?
Perhaps we all need to concentrate a bit more on judging ourselves than on judging others.
Ubiquitin, precisely which halachah in Shulchan Aruch has newbee violated by expressing his displeasure at this dinner?
Phil, I read some of the material.
Perhaps we all need to concentrate a bit more on judging ourselves than on judging others.
Go for it.
DY
Lots Being Dan lekaf zechus, lo seilech rachel beamecha, Motzi shem ra
Newbee
“Not the those people who went are wrong per-se, “
I can live with that.
DY and newbee: No. “Halachic” and “Mesorah” dinners are common terms in certain communities. They mean dinners in which Halachos relevant to foods are discussed. Foods for these need to be more exotic because everyone knows relevant Halachos to everyday food. You guys (newbee much more than DY) are willfully misinterpreting the phrase and using that misinterpretation to claim that people are going counter to Halachic values while claiming to endorse them.
RE: “completely hypocritical RIDICULOUS and BLATANTLY GLUTTONIS (sp.) dinner’ ~
as Phil stated correctly: “The promotion merely stated, “Rabbi Soloveichik will entertain and enlighten with a special lecture over dinner. We’ll learn about some far out there kosher foods, and we’ll eat a few of them too.”
It’s called a “Halakhic Dinner” because halachos are taught about what is eaten. “
I saw photos of the foods served. although not your usual fare, it all looked like regular restaurant food (except for the locusts).. of course, described in effusive language as upscale restaurants do.
the dinner was geared for a bunch of Yidden to try kosher, uncommon foods. and learn the sources for them. period.
It’s an intellectual experience.
Lots Being Dan lekaf zechus, lo seilech rachel beamecha, Motzi shem ra
Oh, please. It’s a discussion about values, using one specific event as a springboard for discussion. If you disagree with newbee, fine, but don’t forget that there’s also something called onoas devorim.
It’s called a “Halakhic Dinner” because halachos are taught about what is eaten.
The word “entertain” in this context doesn’t bother you?
DY: If there’s anyone on this thread being Over on Onaas Devarim, it’s the one calling people gluttonous.
thread title: ”Halachic Dinner” – What do you think about it?’ = discussion about a specific event. JMHO
Sam, that may or may not be true (I suppose that depends if any of the 225 or so attendees are reading), but there’s clearly worse going on here.
Always here, as I said, that’s the springboard for a discussion about values.
newbee,
To sum it up a different way:
Daas Yochid = agreed with you
Other people = didn’t agree with you
In regards to “literal fascism” and “passionate responses”, interestingly, the most glaring examples were posted by you –
on Page 1 of this thread:
“it was probably geared towards very wealthy MO BTs who love expensive food and Rov Joseph Ber Soloveitchik (in that order)”
and on this page:
“completely hypocritical RIDICULOUS and BLATANTLY GLUTTONIS”
DY
I never said I was never oiver an issur in this thread just that ” hypercriticizing him for being critical.” isn’t hypocritical since in one case it was warranted and not the other.
That said I accept your tochacha and will work on avoiding name calling in the future. Though it is very hard for me especially with some posters.
Kudos to you though, I think you disagreed with every comment I ever posted, and yet can recall few times where you resorted to name-calling (I think the last time was regarding the shiduch crises which I cant believe you buy into the “age gap”
JK)
Let me just point out the debate tactic that newbee just took.
Step 1: Make an assertion.
Step 2: Expand on that assertion and refuse to discuss claims made against said assertion.
Step 3: Continue to bait people by throwing insults then acting defensive and *still* never discussing claims.
Step 4: Call opponents fascists and use their passion to prove the point that they are wrong (somehow).
Step 5: /drops mic
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