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zahavasdad
There is a famous vort from Rabbi Frand about why the torah lists all the gifts given by the nisiam in parshas Naso
Why repeat the identical series of korbonos 12 times?
The answer is that each subsequent nasi could have said “the last one threw a party with xyz, I’m going to do one better!”
They didn’t, and each one resisted that urge to stand out and showed tznius and mentschlikiet by doing the exact same thing as his predecessor, the torah rewards them by singling out each and repeating the gift of each to show how beloved it was to Hashem
Your philosophy is not compatible with this.
There are norms of society. whether it’s weddings or cars or houses. When someone “one ups” his friend and the societal norms for any reason, he invokes all sorts of problems, from ayin hora to being responsible for setting an atmosphere of “keeping up with the jonse’s”,
such a person is not a baal mussar.
I can easily afford a lexus, but I dont. Not because I don’t appreciate the luxury, rather its because its not what Hashem wants and because its good chinuch for my children. So says the mussar seforim.
I have never encountered a statement in all my learning that says what you said “that some said you should live well” Just the opposite
Especially amongst the goyim, A jew is supposed to not stand out.
See the Yaalot devash by Rav Eybeshutz and what he says about drawing attention to ourselves with fancy houses etc.
DY
Thanks, maybe you are right though he said “”if the main reason you look forward to shabbos is that you get to stuff your face with stuffed chicken and meat” not the only reason, and Your explanation adds a lot to his words.
You ask “Is that a perversion of the Torah?”
No, I’m sorrry Newbee if I misunderstood what you said.
That being said while not a perversion it still isnt a level that you cna demand of other people. Mussar by definition is level-dependednt.
Bottom line is if a person eats cheescake on Shavuos and enjoys it there is a literal mitzvah deoraysa that he is beign mekayem (in addition to a minhag yisroel). As should be well known, shelo lishma is ok too and one day it will lead to lishma
mentsch1
“I have never encountered a statement in all my learning that says what you said “that some said you should live well””
Well in the spirit of matan Torah here is one i provided earlier in the thread:
“asid liten din vecheshbon al kol sheraasa eino velo achal”
Roughly translated: In the future [you will have to] answer for any [mutar] item [that you] saw and did not eat”
It is a yerushalmi at the end of Kidushin:
http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14142&st=&pgnum=475
We have a broad agadata, and there are quotes that can be brought up to justify many approaches. Just because this approach is not yours doesnt automaticly make it wrong.
Tochacha should be reserved for halacha, “vos shteit in shulchan aruch” not to lofty mussar levels. IF you want to avoid it beautiful! I hope it brings you closer to Hashem .
If they want to enjoy it, that is perfectly fine! And that it is enhanced with limud Hatorah is a wonderful thing.
Mentsch1, since you claim to have direct knowledge’s of what Hashem wants, can you find out if He wants the Rangers to beat Tampa Bay in tonight’s hockey game? On a more serious note, how do you explain all the ads for luxury goods, cars, sheitels and trips in newspapers targeted at the yeshivish community? As far as standing out, our modes of dress accomplishes that
sam2 who said ” Real veal (and at a meal this fancy it will be real veal) is made from specially-fattened calf that have only ever been fed Tarfus, which is Assur to eat according to the Rama.”
The is not what “veal” is defined as in the United States. You can check any of the standard dictionaries, not to meantion the meat section in your local kosher market. Real veal means meat of a young member of the cattle family (often the males produced by dairy cattle – their sisters are used for milk production and then low grade beef).
Whatever you are referring to, there may not be an English word for. In American practice, the calves that are being turned into veal are fed milk and or grain, There is almost nothing a cow can digest that is treff unless you are using the banned animal feeds made from rendering other animals and are very rare now since they cause a fatal brain disease in humans – cows stomachs are not designed to digest meat.
lesschumras
you are absolutely correct
I personally don’t open these circulars because my heart breaks.
It is devastating to me to see countless ads geared toward making your kitchen “Exquisite” for $100K, or any other of the many ads geared toward making us feel we need to spend a small fortune on something gashmiusdik. Even the fact that people think it is normal to spend $150 on a skirt for a teenager has me scratching my head.
The frum velt has some serious issues in this regard.
newbee
“”Just by eating cheesecake and baked ziti, and enjoying it you get schar!”
oy vey”
(as an aside DY, Note I did not complelty misunderstand newbee)
what level source do you prefer?
Passuk? Gemara? Rambam? Shulchan aruch? Mishna Berurua?
I’d be happy to provide all.
But it you have preference I’d like to save some time.
Thank you for the penei moshe, of course it doesnt change anything I said by one iota
Ubiquitin
That comment of the gemarah of answering for not partaking of mutar items can be used to rationalize a lot.
Clearly it’s not meant to contradict all the mussar seforim and to allow indulgence. It certainly can not be used to allow the building of mansions and driving fancy cars.
All the seforim are clear that Indulgence and pursuit of gashmiuos is bad.
So how do you explain that Gemorrah?
Rav Hirsch went to switzerland to see the Alps because of that Yerushalmi. Would he say that you could use that Aggadata to rationalize yearly ski trips to switzerland. Of course not. Moderation and minimalization is the key.
Notice the gemorrah mentions partaking with an implication of ONE TIME not continued indulgence.
When it comes to food the gemorrah is clear, if you see something good save it for shabbos. That’s how you indulge properly, but it still needs moderation and should never stray to gluttony.
A person needs to be continuously working on himself whether its to be more stringent in halacha or to teach himself to minimize his gashmious. Unfortunately we are a society that is growing more and more toward gluttony and indulgence.
I never expected for these comments to be popular. For every fancy house and car out there (and there are a lot) There is a person rationalizing. Learn the mesillas yeshorim. Learn the yarot devash. We are in galus and should live accordingly.
Hatzlocho and gut yom tov.
mentsch- so then this exoctic halachic dinner was absolutely appropriate as many of these foods are probably a one time thing.
mensch1
“Clearly it’s not meant to contradict all the mussar seforim and to allow indulgence.”
Clear to whom?
“It certainly can not be used to allow the building of mansions and driving fancy cars.”
IT probably can. Though lets limit it to food.
“but it still needs moderation and should never stray to gluttony.”
I made that clear, “not invloving achila gasa”
“So how do you explain that Gemorrah?”
Do you mean “How do they explain the Gemorrah?” You have to ask them. I have ideas though, some alluded in my post
“Moderation and minimalization is the key.”
Maskim. So can we limit the criticism to those who attend these dinners annually, and allow for a one time trial?
“A person needs to be continuously working on himself…”
maskim again. But here is the key word: “HIMSELF” there is no need to work on minimizing other peoples gashmiyus. In fact there is a well known lne from R” Yisroel Salanter saying the opposite.
“For every fancy house and car out there (and there are a lot) There is a person rationalizing”
Yes, and there is kinnah too
“Learn the mesillas yeshorim. Learn the yarot devash.”
Do any of these seforim endorse criticisng others lack of your lofty spiritual level?
“Hatzlocho and gut yom tov.”
Thank you, You too!
Newbee
I never said there is only one valid approach in fact I said the opposite. There are several approaches. If abstaining from “halachik dinner” brings you closer to Hashem then abstain. If it doesnt then enjoy. Inever said every one here should go in keeping with the yerushalmi. There are other valid approaches.
“”I want this $100 per pound steak to make my ruchnius better” “
That isnt quite what was said. a better example would be “”I want this $100 per pound steak and learn the halachos involved in this fancy steak”
(This isnt a perfect analogy either, but better than yours”
As for refrences.
Sorry I cant provide exact at the moment but start with Devarim 16:15 and bavli, Shulchan aruch and Rambam on Hilchos yom tov both mention simcha on yom tov specifically with regard to eating. Also see Beitzah 15b regarding Shavuos everybody holds need “Lachem” ie time dedicated to physical yes physical! enjoyment in of itself is a mitzvah on yom tov!!
Is this really news to you?
So, where was the halachic in this dinner?
Minuval birshus Torah. A concept discussed by the Ramban at the beginning of parshas kedoshim.
apushtayid- dan lechaf zechus is a concept discussed in Pirkei Avos. Don’t forget about loshon hara, motzi shem ra, and disparaging the rabim in public. Unless you somehow think that this is tochachah and that the people you are targeting will actually benefit from your criticisms, it’s pretty clear that denigrating them in this public forum is probably far more assur than what you condemn them of.
Ubiquitin
“Sorry I cant provide exact at the moment but start with Devarim 16:15 and bavli, Shulchan aruch and Rambam on Hilchos yom tov both mention simcha on yom tov specifically with regard to eating. Also see Beitzah 15b regarding Shavuos everybody holds need “Lachem” ie time dedicated to physical yes physical! enjoyment in of itself is a mitzvah on yom tov!!”
You have simply repeated what i said
The mussar seforim / gemorah allows indulgence on shabbos and yom tov, but discourages it all other times
On shavuos I came across several references to this VERY basic mussar idea. (even though i wasn’t researching it) This is truly basic mussar. For example, In igros moshe concerning the yisssacher zevulan relationship he writes that though a rich man is not doing assur by surrounding himself with fancy stuff, it’s a problem al pi mussar. In megillas rus the gra writes that we should apply hashems middah of din to ourself in the area of gashmius and limit what we own etc.
This is really basic mussar
And thats what this thread has always been about
I never commented on the halachic dinner
But I did defend newbee who took a mussar approach against it, and then was jumped on by the commentators here. Neewbee’s approach is by far the more valid one. It fits with all the gemorrah’s and all the mussar seforim. If others (including yourself) don’t want to live that way of life, thats fine, you aren’t doing anything assur (as long as you are giving maaser)
However
at least be modeh to the emes
Simcha613
I’m just curious
according to your point
How does the Rav of a shul get up and give any mussar
isn’t he running into all the problems you have stated here?
Throughout the years many gedolim have used the public forum to have halachic debates / give tochocha
most recently publications such as “dialogue” take strong positions against a whole host of issues.
These publications have been produced and used by gedolim since the advent of the printing press
whats the difference here?
mench1
That comment wasnt directed to you, I think we are pretty much in agreement.
The only thing we may disagree on is whether it is appropriate to give “tochacha” regarding mussar type things in a generalized way without knowing the individuals involved.
My comments were directed at Newbee’s anti-Torah approach. There is a mitzva of Enjoyment on Shabbos. there is a mitzvah of Simcha on Yom Tov. This clearly refers to physical enjoyment “ein Simcha elah basar veyayin” Yes some hold it is lav davka but it clearly means physical enjoyment. This is brought lehalacha by all commentators. Granted it cant be taken to extreme. But in response to this “”Just by eating cheesecake and baked ziti, and enjoying it you get schar!” Newbee replied “oy vey” I never said the ikkar is cheescake or that it comes close to other mitzvahs. But there is a very real schar for enjoying yom tov. I find it worrisome that some have trouble with this point
Simcha:
“denigrating them in this public forum is probably far more assur than what you condemn them of.”
You are probably correct. However, you violated your own comment by assuming I am condemning this dinner and/or its participants in some way. My comment was directed towards the most recent discussions regarding eating and enjoying Hashems world. I was pointing out that this is not a new discussion and provided the Ramban as a Mareh Makom. My attitude towards the dinner itself? Ambivalence.
1) we aren’t gedolim or rabbis of communities that have reshus to give tochachah to entire communities, and certainly not to do it publicly.
2) the people we are referring to aren’t on this site, so the tochahcha is not addressing the intended recipients
3) and I think we can discuss the halachic issues of such a dinner, but the impression I’m getting (and I hope I misunderstood) is very disparaging at those who did partake in this meal.
I mean, with your logic, any public loshon hara can be rationalized.
mentsch1- Do you have semicha? Did we appoint you as our rav?
Simch613
Again
when a publication in any public format comes out that draws an opinion that some might take issue with does that make it lashon hora?
No, it’s a philosophical / halachic debate.
I don’t need semicha to reiterate obvious concepts of mussar that have been published for eons
If people are taking offense it’s not because there is anything wrong with the message or the forum, its because they don’t like the conclusions (or have a guilty conscience)
Its a very American liberal attitude that you cant say anything that might make someone feel “judged”
This is yeshivaworld right?
Yeshiva implies growth through learning and mussar
In addition, a public forum is the right place for this. The rampant gashmius in Brooklyn affects us all.
For example
those that can’t afford brand name labels, have to deal with teenage kids coming home from certain schools asking for the latest in expensive fashion. If you are raising your kids one way, its hard to keep that tznius attitude once your kids hit high school and are exposed to other kids
Even anti-semitism is increased by blatant shows of wealth (so says rav eyebshutz and others)
If only one reader of this takes a more tznius/more mussardik approach than there is a to-elis
mentsch1
“In addition, a public forum is the right place for this. The rampant gashmius in Brooklyn affects us all.”
Work on yoursef! Dont let it affect you.
Fargin, be happy for them! while working on yourself to a) not be affected by their gashmiyus and b) not to want it in keeping with the mussar sforim you quoted
newbee,
The purpose of learning Mesilas Yesharim and other musar works is not to improve others, it’s to improve yourself. If you want to go through life “pas bamelech”, that’s your business. While it may make you feel holy and superior, you are not a Rav or a Manhig and have no right whatsoever to criticize others, especially if they are not violating any Torah or Rabbinic laws. As the musar giants have noted, one should worry about improving their own ruchnius while improving the gashmius of others.
mentsch1,
Rabbi Frand’s point is very timely and relevant but it’s meant for each person to internalize on their level, not as a platform to rebuke others. Rabbi Frand himself will be leading a luxury tour of Europe this summer, just as he has done previously. The itinerary will not include musar sessions on why the participants are wrong to be on such a luxurious tour. In regards to chinuch, one cannot influence their children’s choices by criticizing the choices other people make. One can only do so by showing their children through example how rich their lives are regardless of designer labels.
Ubiqutin
That is disingenuous and doesn’t address either example
I mentioned affecting teenagers not me
I’m pretty sure that if I used smoking as an example, you would relate. You would certainly understand if i said, “50% of my sons high school class smokes and I’m afraid it might affect him”
I also mentioned the klal and anti-semitism, which you didn’t address.
Again
this is not about jealousy. I can B”H afford all these things, it’s about making people think twice before indulging and maybe bringing a little more sanity and modesty into our community.
Phil
There is a vast difference between a luxury tour and a mansion
A mansion is a permanent and blatant statement of wealth. It is not tznius and, as per my previous statements, it is “pas nisht” for golus.
A luxury tour doesn’t have people/goyim pointing fingers
mentsch1
There is no comparison to smoking. This is something we all agree isnt assur, but is a level to strive for.
Anti-semitsm is pure foolishness. Surprise: when we were dirt poor in a shtetl there was antisemitism too. probably more so!
“I mentioned affecting teenagers not me”
No you said “affects us all”
mentsch1,
Then don’t live in a mansion. You still have no right to point your own fingers at anyone else, nor will you impart the proper chinuch to your children by doing so.
You’ll simply teach them to point fingers, just like tatty did.
newbee,
I have no problem with your saying whatever you want, nor am I trying to silence you. Please continue, it’s quite entertaining!
Since you are so keen to judge others for what they eat, please include a detailed accounting of everything you have eaten in the past week, so that we can judge you. I’m sure you’ve been keeping this list, as all good baalei mussar do.
Ubiqutin
By “us all” I meant even you (though clearly you disagree)
and peer pressure amongst teenagers is real (and clearly is even real among adults-hence the takonos)
and all peer pressure fits the example, whether fashion, smoking, cell phones etc.
The anti-semitism comment is the position of numerous gedolim, so I don’t have to defend it
and
Phil
I don’t point fingers
I educate my children, about why I behave differently than others. I teach them mussar, I teach them that pursuing gashmiuos is wrong and bad for their soul. And when they ask about the neighbors mansions I tell them not to judge, maybe they didnt have a yeshiva background like me.
If you feel that’s “pointing fingers” than I can’t help that.
mencth1
Of course we are affected by peer pressure. Our avoda is to overcome that. Not to tell the others to stop doing it (teenagers are an exception since they are immature)
But for grownups look at his nice house and work on yourself (ourselves) not to let it affect you. Or better yet to be genuinely happy for him
mentsch1,
That’s beautiful!
But what do you tell them about the neighbors living in mansions who did have a yeshiva background like you?
My point is, you’re not going to change anyone by criticizing their choices on YWN or any other forum. You also won’t teach your children the proper lessons by doing so.
Phil
What should I tell them about the guy with a yeshiva background?
Should I say something nice and liberal, like “everyone is entitled to their own philosophy”?
As to not changing minds and choices
I think better of the readers than you. I believe that anyone who goes to a website named yeshivaworld, is looking to improve themselves through learning and mussar
newbee,
A profound point, but not really relevant to this discussion.
Please include a comprehensive list of everything you have eaten over the past week in your next post. We’re still waiting.
mentsch1,
As ubiquitin wrote, you should show your children that you are genuinely happy for others and teach them your derech which emphasizes the spiritual over the physical wherever possible.
Learning and musar are not about improving others, they’re about improving ourselves. Learning and musar help us improve our own ruchnius while improving the gashmius of others.
Phil
I have no requirement to improve the gashmius of others. If they need tzedakah yes, even to go to the degree that if someone who had a lexus and lost his money, and needs a lexus to “feel ok” then I have a requirement “al pi tzedakah” to provide him with it.
But otherwise why would I provide gashmius to a rich person?
as to your response to newbee, it’s not worthy
to imply he is hyptocritical and therefore his point is not valid, well, thats not being intellectually honest
mentsch1
There is a saying attributed to R” Yisroel Salanter “”Yenem’s gashmius iz dein ruchnius “
“This is yeshivaworld right?”
In name only.
mentsch1,
Here’s a simple example of how one is supposed to worry more about the gashmius of others than their ruchnius: When inviting guests, one should not say, “It would be wrong of me to serve them a sumptuous meal because that would encourage teivah and physical pleasure”. One can limit the foods he or she eats and thereby minimize their own physical pleasure but one should not do so to others.
A true baal musar works on himself and isn’t so focused on giving tochacha to others, especially in matters where he is weak.
Hass veshalom someone who has been working on his or her self-righteousness reads this discussion and gets misguided and undoes all the hard work.
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