- This topic has 40 replies, 12 voices, and was last updated 13 years, 11 months ago by .
-
Posts
-
We’re all fairly familiar with the fact that the penalty for murder under halacha is death. This, of course, assumes that the perpetrator had the proper warnings, etc.
This is all predicated on the fact that he actually succeeds in the murder. So, what happens if he doesn’t? Consider the following scenario:
Joe decides he wants to kill Sam. So he loads his gun, goes over to Sam’s house and is ready to kill him. Two kosher witnesses are there, give Joe the requisite warning and he acknowledges as required. He then fires…. and completely misses. The bullet flies out an open window and falls harmlessly in a field somewhere. He’s then knocked to the ground and dragged to bais din.
So, what does bais din do? Let him go to try again? They can’t kill him. They can’t give him malkus for striking someone. They can’t even assess him for damages if he didn’t wound him or damage his property.
So, what does Bais Din do?
The Wolf
They shoot at him and also miss?
Beis Din has extra-judicial powers to enforce the public welfare. In your case they’d probably lock him up until they felt society was safe with his freedom.
don’t we say Habah L’Hargecha Haskeim V’Hargo (if someone’s coming to kill you take the initiative and kill him) so I would assume that sam can now buy a gun and kill joe.
I hope this isn’t halacha L’maaseh
Did they keep and maintain prisons? Not that I’ve learned all of Shas (far from it), but I don’t recall a single mention of a prison being maintained.
They must have had prisons. In the case where Beis Din starved someone to death, for certain crimes that were lacking in the strict judicial proof required, they did so by locking him up.
They did have small overnight prisons where they kept the guy while they decide his fate.
mbachur, I don’t think that someone remains a Rodef forever after. I wonder if he is called a Rodef during planning stages; probably it only applies to actual heading to murder.
An answer to the Wolf’s question would be that there is no Halachic action on this person, but there are societal actions to be done. Just as setting up traffic rules and patterns are the responsibility of any government, it is not a Halacha per se (besides for Vinishmartem, Lo Saamod, Vechay Achicha Imach…).
Wolf as a Baal Kriah you should remember ??????? ?????
????? ?? ;??
They must have had prisons. In the case where Beis Din starved someone to death, as in ??????? ???? ?????
??????? ??;?
If you look up ??????? ???? ?????
??????? ?? you will see that that was not long term either.
If I remember correctly Beis Din used extra-judicial powers such as ??????? ???? ????? for economic crimes such as price gouging. Another possibility he was dealt with by the ??? if there was one. a ??? operated under a different set of ????? .
not only in cases of national security (from memory, correct me)
nothing? (possibly)
does anyone have a mekor?
Wolf
What did they do with a ???? who killed someone who turned out to be a ????? ? there is no ???? ???? but he still is a danger to society. If you find an answer to this question yours is answered as well.
RR wrote;
An answer to the Wolf’s question would be that there is no Halachic action on this person, but there are societal actions to be done. Just as setting up traffic rules and patterns are the responsibility of any government, it is not a Halacha per se (besides for Vinishmartem, Lo Saamod, Vechay Achicha Imach…).
perhaps that was the function of ???
Rav Belsky was once asked about circumstantial evidence (DNA, Video surveillance, etc.)in a beis din murder trial when the beis din will be reinstated, and he answered that we would probably lock him up for life. I would assume that this means that beis din had long term prisons and that they will when Moshiach comes and beis din is reinstated.
JustHold: Post-Moshiach, I’m not sure Yidden will be sinning anymore.
Wolf- It is valid. Maybe the case of Shimon ben Shetach was that there wasn’t even circumstantial evidence, but somehow he knew this guy was a murderer.
Wolf,
Batei Din that are either made up of dayanim mumchim (which we do not have in present times), or that are appointed and accepted by the community over which they exert jurisdiction, have extra-legal authority to do as they see fit to maintain social order. (See Tur and Shulchan Aruch, Choshen Mishpat, Siman 3).
When acting on such authority, a beis din can punish crimes not punishable at all under Torah law, or impose punishments not sanctioned by the Torah for violations of Torah laws in accordance with their understanding of the needs of the community. Additionally, batei din acting in this extra-legal capacity are not bound by the ordinary rules of evidence; they may accept testimony from otherwise invalid witnesses or circumstantial evidence.
The important point here is that the extra-legal rulings of batei din acting under “Siman 3” authority are not halachik decisions, and have no precedential value. They apply only to the particular circumstances in which they are issued. Also, the members of the beis din are strongly cautioned to use this great power with the utmost care – every precarious step must be taken with a mind towards their obligations to God and the community, and the kavod habrios due any defendant must never leave their mind.
Also, importantly, this extraordinary authority is limited by the need to maintain communal support. In modern times a beis din only has “Siman 3” authority if it acts with the consent of the community over which it exerts jurisdiction. It must temper its rulings to meet the approval of the community – it cannot be too strict or too lenient – because as soon as the court no longer enjoys popular assent, it no longer has any authority to act in an extra-legal capacity.
That extra-Halachic stuff is for extra circumstances. Chazal say that when murder was rampant, they’d kill even when it didn’t fit the bill. You can’t make a rule out of that.
Wolf – (Sanhedrin) ??, ? ???? ????? ??? ??? ????? ??????? ???? ????? ???????? ???? (?????? ?) ??? ?? ???? ???:
?? ??, ? ???? ??? ?????? ??? ?? ????? ?????? ?????? ??? ??? ?????? ??? ???? ??? ????? ???? ???????? ??????? ??? ??????? ??????? ????? ???? ???? ?? ???? ?????? ?????: ???????? ???? ??? ?? ???? ???: ??? ??? ??? ????? ?????? ?? ??? ?? ???? ??? ???? ??? ??? ????? ??????? ???? ?????? ?? ?????? ?????? ??? ?? ??? ???? ????? ?????? ?? ??? ?? ???? ??? ?? ?????? ?????? ???? ??????? ???? ?????? ?? ?????? ??????:
Shimon ben Shetach didn’t hold like this Taana, but we pasken like this Mishna, not like SbS!
Wolf – You answered you own question – Of course they would. It’s just in our generation, due to the prevelance of mental illness, that most poskim hold that suicide & attempted suicide are Putter – that they have a Din of Shoitah!
Wolf – Actually, I don’t agree with you on this one, because psych
plays a part even back then. If a mentally competent Jew wanted to commit suicide, he would try to make sure noone saw him. Why? Why not let Bais Din finish the job, if he doesn’t succeed? Because even though he wants to commit suicide, most humans want to do it with the least amount of pain. If he isn’t successful, he wants to try it again himself; he doesn’t want Bais Din to do it for him, because their method of death was extremely Painful!
interesting this story of shimon ben shotach
cos recently i learned in makos that shimon ben shotach swore (ereh benechomo) that he didn’t take an innocent life by killing one eid zomiffied alone.
Wolf – Why do you always repeat the post? Why not just address the poster by name, like I do? As far as suicide by cop or by themselves. The person would prefer the cop because it’s the same bullet which is the same pain as shooting yourself, but you don’t have to go through that emotion of firing a gun at yourself. Bais Din killing the guy is severe pain. You can just imagine the pain of the person’s belly exploding!
Wolf -Of course I can because any normal person who wants to commit suicide looks for the most pain free way possible. I don’t know if hanging is pain free or not, I never tried it, but if it’s painful, then only the abnormal would want to die this way!
If he really wants to die, why doesn’t he just not breathe?
Maybe a dog like Ruffruff can, but us humans can’t hold our breath till we die!
no normal person wants to commit suicide.
Furthermore, there ae well documented of people who commited suicide by fire, for example, like some indian priests who burned themselves in the street publicly as a form of protest.
dear RuffRuff: Though we have some voluntary control over it, breathing is involuntary. it is surprisingly hard to die by not breathing. After a while you would pass out and begin to breathe again.
Try it! you’ll see. make sure you are lying down when you try this because it is easy to hurt yourself when you fall after passing out.
Are you sure, or should I be “safe” and write a will, first?
- You must be logged in to reply to this topic.