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Mentsch1: Do you really believe the rishonnim would argue against tanaaim (this is an explicit Mishna is Sotah)? Also, I never said mixed. I said they can be in the army.
mdd1: Actually, I believe that is incorrect. According to the Rambam (perek 5), he needs to ask permission from the Sanhedrin if he takes the “people” to a discretionary war. But I do not believe this applies to his own army. He can wage war using his army without permission of the Sanhedrin. In addition, even the rambam agrees that fighting for the survival of Israel and Jews would fall under a Milchemes Mitzvah which does not require the Sanhedrin’s approval .
Regardless of the halacha, in hindsight, if our kings actually listened to the Sanhedrin we would not be in today’s galus and our history wouldn’t have been so bloody.
AY, the fact of the matter is that more and more Chareidim are joining the IDF and even becoming officers. This is the reason why the extremists are rioting and assaulting Chareidi soldiers. They realize that they are becoming irrelevant.
Mentsch,
1. In fact, relying on miracles was one of BG’s sins. He famously said that a Jew must believe in them in order to be realistic. Thus, he declared the State and enacted the Law of Return against the advice of the Americans and British who said that the Arabs would overrun it in a few days and the advice of his advisors who said that Israel was too poor to take in all Jewish comers. However, the terutz is that sheluchei mitzva are not endangered and anyway, that applies to individuals not the klal. Moreover, one only has to take reasonable precautions, as did Smuel when he anointed David.
2. Who says that the world is black and white.
Can any one pull up a single reference of a battalion of women fighting anywhere ?
When the chashmonaim battled the yevanim to defend religion and freedom, did women fight? Were they even permitted? !
In Dovid Hamelech’s army, did women fight? Were they even permitted? !
In kibush ha’aretz under Yehoshua and later,did women fight?Were they even permitted? !When Amale, attacked the benei yisroel did women fight?Were they even allowed!?
Even those will pull out a tshuva that women who live in dangerous, unsettled communities AFTER THE FACT are allowed in those circumstances to carry a weapon, is there a single posek who ever allowed a woman to don a uniform?!
Has someone written anything about what an halachicly ideal Jewish army looks like? i.e., is there any sefer out there that describes a Jewish army al pi halacha?
a bit late
This actually was the bread and butter of Mizrachi and Pa”i Journals from the ’50s through the’ 70sTime,
1. What about Yael and Devora? Rav Arye Levine spoke about them when he went to visit the Lehi women imprisoned in Bet Lehem by the British (BTW, Geula Cohen, was technically imprisoned for carrying a gun but she commented that her real weapon was her radio transmitter).
2. I posted the title of a sefer on military ethics at the beginning of this thread.
Avi K,
Reread my words “battalion of women’
individual women fighting as irregulars is completely irrelevant .Lo Yarbeh
is to adjure the Monarch against having a large private force.anon1m0us,etc.
“please show me ONE instance throughout the torah where the King says do A, and then Sanhedrin says do B, the army listened to the Sanhedrin???!!!! All I need is ONE instance! ”
Sanhedrin disapproved of Aleander yannai’s annexation of Edom
( unfortunately, in that instance, his army was mercenaries so he ignored them)Sanhedrin declared that it had to the Right to try
Herod ,Hycarnus’s officer on reckless murderDovid had to ask Them permission to end the economic crisis through and invade Syria
Even Eminent Non Jews e.g.
Selden
Understood the Check and Balances (e.g. The King
nominated a Kohen Mishu’ach Milchama from the Kohanim but it had to be approved)And based their systems upon it.
anon1m0us,
‘If Dovid or Saul wanted them to enforce the torah, like Yehoshaya, then they did, but that was not their job!”
Really?
Show us please just one single source that says that or anything a shred like it!“Jewish Army follows the halacha, not because a King tell them to follow the halacha or because of the Sanhedrin. They follow it because each individual in that army follows the halacha. As stated, the Army follows the king, not Sanhedrin. If a soldier decides to follow Sanhedrin and not the king, he is killed for Mored B’Malchus.”
False
So Nov Ir Hakohanim deserved death for disobeying shaul?If a soldier followed the urim V’tumim which was ignored by the Ruler
he is chayav?“So to summarize, a Jewish Army Al Pi Halacha is an army that each individual upholds the halacha. Al Pi Halacha, this army can contain Men and Women. This Army can fight on Shabbos and when moshiach comes, will also ask Sanhedrin regarding halachic issues and since the king will be Moshiach, there will be no issues. Until then, the army follows the Prime Minister and asks all halachic questions to the chief rabbi.’
False
Judaism WAS a national public religion primarilyEven In the hashgafa of Rav Kook and the Religious Zionists founders, israel
was and is all supposed to be about the
whole Klal, Galut was of by default about the individual. That is why we had centralized control, while in the Galut, individual rabbis would make individual decisions about individuals.‘Twas obvious before you were trying to force the suited Agenda.Now you openly came out and said it!
“Until then, the army follows the Prime Minister and asks all halachic questions to the chief rabbi.”
So you desire to abrogate political control from the representatives of the klal, the Sanhedrin, and transfer it to the Monarch. And then you’ll transfer the role of the monarch to the
“people’s representatives”, the knesset and the gov’t.Very Well Done!!
Avi K,
Let”s hear what Rabbi Melamed has said:
The IDF’s Eroding Attitude towards Jewish Tradition
It was recently reported that further erosion has occurred in the rules of ‘Appropriate Integration’ (‘Ha’Shiluv Ha’Ra’ui’) in the IDF; not only are religious soldiers forced to listen to female singers, but commanders are now allowed to force them to serve in mixed-gender units
And/Or
Military Rabbi is Not the Mara d’Atra
As a result of the steady erosion of the status of the Military Rabbinate, which also reflects a dismissive attitude towards Jewish tradition, I wrote a number of times that unfortunately, the IDF Chief Rabbi no longer has the authority of mara d’atra (the local rabbinic authority), whose instructions and halakhic rulings are binding, seeing as he does not have the independence required to be a mara d’atra.
.
What is a Mara d’ Atra?The literal meaning of mara d’atra is ‘master of the place’; in other words, the person who everyone listens to. In the past, the intention was a rabbi who was listened to in all matters of religious law and morality, including wage agreements and strikes. When the status of the rabbinate became weakened, the authority of the rabbi was reduced to the field of halakha alone. Nevertheless, when a community chose a rabbi, they undertook to abide by his halachic rulings. The Chief IDF Rabbi, however, is dependent on his superiors; it is forbidden for him to publish any halachic decision that has public implications without express approval of his superiors and the IDF spokesman. If he publishes a halakha in contradiction to the position of his superiors – he is discharged. In such a situation, he clearly lacks the authority of mara d’atra, rather, that of a senior officer and advisor of religious affairs to the Chief of Staff, as defined in the IDF commands. Moreover, a mara d’atra has to be chosen by God-fearing people with the purpose of strengthening Torah and observance of mitzvot, and not by secular officers whose interests are vastly different..
The Selection Process of Rabbi Krim
To our shame, this also happened in the election process of the next Chief IDF Rabbi, Rabbi Eyal Krim, shlita, who is a great Torah scholar and an outstanding combat officer, who served as a commander in the Sayeret Matkal (Special IDF Forces), and commander in the Sayeret Tzanchanim (Special Paratrooper Forces). For many generations the Jewish nation has waited for rabbis who combine safra and seifa (book and sword) as wonderfully as he does. However, the manner in which he was appointed shows just how subordinate he is to military leaders, and not free to express the position of Jewish law…
The Obligation to Rise in Opposition
For the sake of the Israeli army, which is obligated to honor Jewish tradition, it is our duty to rise up in opposition against these orders. This obligation is imposed on public officials, first and foremost, the Defense Minister and his deputy, and upon every soldier and officer.
This article appears in ‘Besheva’ ,, and was translated from Hebrew
Anon…, kings are not supposed to have their own private armies? What are you talking about? Also, I don’t know what you mean by “the bloody history”.
Gadolhadorah,
So we could have closed shop by the crusades, Tach V’Tat or the pogroms?
We should give up on our raison d’etre??We are building toward a Halachic Messianic Utopia through our blood and tears
Read what HaRav Elya Meir Bloch wrote on the day he heard his family had been wiped out
Sorry, I meant it in the affirmative: the kings are not supposed to have their own private armies.
Time,
1.Rav Shlomo Aviner disagrees strongly with rav Melamed on this. With all due respect to REM (and he deserves a great deal), it is impossible for every soldier to have a personal rav who decides whether or not he should obey an order.
2. Since that article was written rabbis did indeed “rise up” and the order was changed to exempt any soldier who does not want to serve in a mixed unit.
Mdd, please cite your source and define what you mean by a “private army”. A kingship is by definition the rule of an individual. Thus, his army is the people’s army (Rav Kook, in fact, says that a king is, or at least should be, the embodiment of Am yisrael in an individual)
Mdd1: Where did you get your source that a king cannot have a private army. Please provisde.
Bloody History??? Please read Nach again.
Anon that is not a source. That is your personal opinion. In fact, David had professional soldiers (the Gibborim) and Yoav was a relative of his. When he was running away from Shaul he definitely had a private army. See
“מבנה צבא דוד” by נסים מזוז on the website “דעת”.Avi : what are you referring too? I am saying that Dovid DID have a private army. We are saying the same.
Please try to keep your posts shorter. Thank you
anon1m0us,avi K,
Would Dovid violate Devarim 17;16-17??
The mishna based upon it states a monarch is permitted to have כדי מרכבתו
which we could presume to mean an honor guard, as most monarchs and emperors had in the past.
We can further presume that they were also his cadre of officers for when the nation commonwealth were mobilized.The armed forces were citizen-soldiers serving together with their own shevet/provincial regimental colors..
“There is no country on the face of the earth to which the principle of citizen-soldiership is so well adapted as our own, for the freedom possessed by Britons is of so general and real a character as to cause the humblest in the land to feel deeply the neccessity of preserving the safety and independence of the nation of which he is a part”
The Volunteer’s book of facts 1863
anon1m0us,
Jews are proponents of hierarchical representative socio-political ordered commonwealth.
Might we assume you to be of the crowd that erratically will lurch from desire/need for an dictatorial autocratic Ruler only to emotionally lurch later to the other political extreme of demanding a leveling chaotic mass democracy (‘the tyranny of the majority is worse than the majority of tyranny’) that philosophers have warned us about for eons?
It is time: What does Devorim have to do with anything? It has nothing to do with an Army, but with horses, wives and gold. Also, after Saul, Israel had a regular standing army in addition to citizen solders were required to serve to fill the ranks. In Malachim 1, Perek 10 has Shlomo Hamelech have 1400 chariots and 12,000 horsemen. The pasuk says he stationed them in certain cities to show that this is a REGULAR STANDING ARMY who were stationed throughout Israel and not just Citizen solders who are called into battle..
It is time: Who knows what will be when Moshiach comes. He may well be just like Queen Elizabeth or he may be like a real king. I do not presume to know what will be when Moshiach comes. All I am stating is the halachic requirements of what a Jewish Army can be comprised of. Will we have Korbanous? Who knows and I do not worry about it. My job is to make sure I do my part for him to come. What Moshiach decides after, it is up to him.
It is time” So Nov Ir Hakohanim deserved death for disobeying shaul?” Yes. According to the meforshim, they were Mored B’ma;chus. Please see the Chida (pesach einaim) on this where the mere fact they allowed Dovid to use the Urim Vtmim, King Shaul ruled they were Mored Bmalchs and deserved to die.
it is time: “When the chashmonaim battled the yevanim to defend religion and freedom, did women fight? Were they even permitted? !
In Dovid Hamelech’s army, did women fight? Were they even permitted? !
In kibush ha’aretz under Yehoshua and later,did women fight?Were they even permitted? !”That is two separate questions: Did they fight? No. Were they permitted? Yes. Again, please see the mishna.
Yael and Devora did their bits.
Anon, Chazal fault Doeg for saying LH and Shaul for believing it (Vayikra Rabba 25,7 and Tanhuma Metzora 14,1). I cannot understand how the cohanim of Nove were mordim b’malchut. Shaul was pursuing David unjustly. Shaul may have thought that but he was wrong (and thus David allowed the Givonim, who lost their parnassa, to name their revenge). Please cite the exact place in the sefer where the Chida discusses this.
Avi: Source is The chida in pesach einaim Erivin, Daf Peh heh
anon1m0us
Irrespective of what the Chida [Drush]may possibly say,
it is generally accepted as per GEMara one of the
Shaul and his family were killed ,was because of the destruction of nov Ir haCohanim.
And Doeg was lost his Olam Haba toomishna?Which?
‘Yael and Devora did their bits.”
But they did not carry or use swords because of Lo Silbash‘What does Devorim have to do with anything? It has nothing to do with an Army, but with horses, wives and gold. Also, after Saul, Israel had a regular standing army in addition to citizen solders were required to serve to fill the ranks. ”
Foolish. One of rare times the gemara is darush Ta’amei D’kra.
It is obvious to avoid amassing a standing army and the like
Shaul actually at first did zero. He was in a de facto war
and since for defense it was allowed and incumbent upon him
Shlomo, arguably violated this Lo Yarbeh as he violated the all the Lo Yarbehs
For which the Kingdom was wrested from his son.“He may well be just like Queen Elizabeth or he may be like a real king. I do not presume to know what will be when Moshiach comes.”
Really? It is clear for those who however care. Start with Yeshaya Chapter 11
” All I am stating is the halachic requirements of what a Jewish Army can be comprised of.”
Without prejudice or bias based upon what suits the zeitgeist??“I do not presume to know what will be when Moshiach comes.”
But we do have some idea
e.g.( Hilchos Parah Adumah 3:4 )
the tenth (para adumah) will be brought by the king Mashiach
the Rambam writes Moshiach will do Shemita and Yovlos. “My job is to make sure I do my part for him to come.”
We are in this world for the purpose of bringing moshiach
That is all
We have few working in whatever endeavor towards that goal
The problem is there are many (mouthing piousness ) whose goals are .. different” I do not presume to know what will be when Moshiach comes. ”
So what’s the point of any halachic discussion?
“All I am stating is the halachic requirements of what a Jewish Army can be comprised of”
How else?
Isn’t Halacha is written in halachic [messianic] ideal from which our sources are derived??Rav Kook Orot b’mhalach chapter 2
[loosely and roughly translated]
The goal of Am Yisrael is to remove humanity from their yoke of their spiritual and physical troubles, and bring them a life of freedom, glory ‘Hod v’eden’, in light of the Godly ideal and bring success to all humanity.In order to fulfill thisl, the tzibbur needs to have a commonwealth, a national sovereignty at the very height of human socio-culture”Am chacham v’navon v’hagoy hagadol (Ve’eschanan)’
And for the commonwealth to be run by the laws of God..It is time: “Foolish. One of rare times the gemara is darush Ta’amei D’kra.” —Again, you are distorting the torah. The torah clearly says not to have a lot of horses because “”You are not to go back that way again” Nothing about war chariots. The end result, Shlomo probably married the Egyptian princess on one of his trips down to Egypt and she caused shlomo a lot of problems. The posek also says HE cannot own, but nothing about war chariots or army. If you believe otherwise, please provide a SOURCE, not mere words. And again, Shlomo’s son lost the kingdom NOT because of Lo Yarbeh, but because of high taxes. Again, please see Malachim 1 for details.
Have you learned Yeshaya Chapter 11??? It has nothing to do with Moshiachs political or military responsibilities. It discusses how he will be a tzadik and he will gather the jews. Again- HOW will moshiach rule? Will he be a true monarch or will there be a democracy? Please provide a source.
It is time: You are contracting the navi as it says in Shmuel 1 that Hashem tore the kingdom from Shual and gave it to Dovid because he did not kill the Amalek king. In addition, you are contradicting the gemara in Eiruvin 53b that clearly says hashem forgave him for the massacre of Nov. The chida explains why they deserved to be killed. Can you please provide a gemara that you are quoting that contradicts this gemara?
As I also stated before, the Mosha in Sotah perek 8 misha 8 clearly states a bride can even go to war. Is there an opposing mishna?
You are also distorting the posek of Lo Silbash to your own needs. There is no lo silbosh for women to own or even carry a gun. A gun is not a men’s attire that is designed for men.It is time: But we do have some idea e.g.( Hilchos Parah Adumah 3:4 ): We are talking about how he will run the government and it’s army. Not bring korbabos etc.
According to the yerushalmi
the King also has to ask a navi before going to war .According to Ri Migash 21b The Monarchy is entitled to have funding for intelligence,deception,espionage
As for Lo Yarbeh of treasureRambam forbids a king to even keep money and possesions which came to him via conquest
The Ramah and Ran however permit .it is only forbidden to levy excessive taxes
There are commentaries based upon Tosefos 21a
that it is forbidden for a sovereign to promulgate a law
that only benefits him/them personally.According to Ramban Sanhedrin 15b , the king must confer with the sanhedrin and get permission before launching an offensive war. However Meiri does say that he only needs sanhedrin to mobilize conscription, implying that he may have a his own volunteer forces.
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