Halacha: Process

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  • #618478

    ” That is not what Rav Moshe said. He was asked by a secular reporter how he became accepted as a gadol and he replied that people asked him questions and liked his answers. They asked more questions “

    This comment was from Avi K on different thread

    This is, of course, based upon response that he told a NYTimes reporter in 1971 that has become mythologized

    Firstly ,it was a response to posek,

    rather than gadol

    Does anyone really believe that is how comes about?!

    Most of us would have an pretty way to become popular!And some of us do!

    For the record , when the alte mirrers came to these shores they were suspicious originally of him due to some of his kulos (e.g. chalav stam)

    Only when those who were they perceived considered higher on the hierarchy told them that he was within bounds ,did they then come around..

    #1185607

    3. While often a pesak is purely halachic (e.g. opening bottles on Shabbat) it is often the result of hashkafa.

    This, as well,was stated by Avi K

    Heaven Forbid.

    This says more about the writer,than…

    Halacha is a search for Objective Truth

    That doesn’t mean it stakes place in a vacuum or an

    Ivory Tower, but it would be subverted

    #1185608
    Meno
    Participant

    I’m confused. What is this thread all about? It looks like just a bunch of incomplete sentences to me. It’s like one of those things where they get a computer to write an essay.

    #1185609
    Avi K
    Participant

    Time,

    The key word is “search”. The Maharal says that the difference between emet and emet l’amituta is that being that the bet din has permission to pasken it’s pesak is truth. What is seen in Shemayim is emet l’amituta. As the dayanim only have what their eyes see it may be different.

    I hate to burst your bubble but poskim are human, not computers and not demigods. They have hashkafot and these hashkafot will affect the pesak. This is not a difficulty if it follows logically from the hashkafa, On the contrary, the Gemara in many places explains the opinion of a Tanna or Amora based on a general rule by which he holds (e.g. does a person put himself into a doubt, does a person care if his wife is dragged into court, etc.). You yourself immediately backtrack and say “That doesn’t mean it stakes place in a vacuum or an Ivory Tower”. The pesak is not subverted. It follows logically from the posek’s sheeta. Thus eilu v’eilu divrei Elokim chaim.

    Regarding how one becomes a gadol, that is simply being on the first tier of poskim. This comes about when the posek is recognized by the Torah world as a gadol. It is a matter of consensus not applying for a position or being elected.

    As for your statement “This says more about the writer,than…”, to whom are you referring? If to me regarding what I posted I thank you for complimenting me on my insights.

    #1185610
    benignuman
    Participant

    The best halachic process is to learn shas and poskim yourself, to learn through sugyos thoroughly and logically and come to your own conclusions about what the halacha is.

    Issues of who is a posek, who is a gadol, and who is greater, only come about when we unfortunately cannot answer for ourselves.

    #1185611
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    Hashkafa is not necessarily a stira to Emes, unless the hashkafa did not come from the Torah in the first place, which is obviously not the case with Gedolim.

    #1185612

    1) The Rif and the Rashba seem to disagree with that of Tosafos.

    4) One could counter the main argument with the Meiri, the Teshuvos HaRosh, and a Mordechai. Examination shows that they are all address related, but slightly different issues. They therefore have little or no impact upon the main argument.

    5) The argument based on Tosafos, therefore, is the strongest and should be accepted as dispositive.

    This is of course with much oversimplifiction

    #1185613

    This is Open [Un]orthodox/Conservative method:

    1) Decide what conclusion you want to arrive at. This will often be based on predicting what the Jewish ethical response must be in a world that has changed so significantly from the early legal texts of Judaism, that the modern author is given much leeway.

    4) Find a medrash as a springboard to show how quintessentially Jewish, how much in the spirit of Jewish law your own conclusion is.

    5) Accept your original argument.

    This would be The Center-left orthodox method:

    A stylized version goes somewhat like this:

    1) According to the Rambam, the Rosh, and the Kol Bo, activity X is proscribed. The Mordechai takes an even stricter view than the others, seeing multiple issurim involved.

    2) No one explicitly permits it. However, a responsum by the Nodah Be-Yehudah includes an argument by his interlocutor which presents a lenient line of reasoning. The Nodah Be-Yehudah himself rejects it, with cause.

    5) Therefore accept the lenient opinion.

    #1185614

    (With credits to R’ Yitzchok Adlerstein,esq. of crosscurrents.com)

    #1185615

    Regarding how one becomes a gadol, that is simply being on the first tier of poskim. This comes about when the posek is recognized by the Torah world as a gadol. It is a matter of consensus not applying for a position or being elected.

    It is ,and ought to be ,neither

    Who the masses choose to crown means little, as does a Stalinist “but how many tanks does he have?”

    Judaism

    is [supposed to be ]

    an aristocracy

    [a la Plato] philosopher-kings

    #1185616

    addendum :

    In the Conservative methodology, there is step 4.5

    #1185617
    Sparkly
    Member

    what happened to my halacha thread?

    #1185618
    Lilmod Ulelamaid
    Participant

    This is a different topic, and it doesn’t belong in your halacha thread.

    #1185620

    lilmod ul’lameid

    “Hashkafa is not necessarily a stira to Emes, unless the hashkafa did not come from the Torah in the first place, which is obviously not the case with Gedolim.”

    Firstly,

    The problem alluded to in this article is that there are other general values which, in fact, originate from the broader society and not from Torah. These other values can lead them to introduce undesirable elements into a halachic process.

    #1185621

    In short, while there is room for

    Hashkafa,

    it’s a slippery slope

    #1185622
    benignuman
    Participant

    It is Time,

    I agree with much of what you wrote but Judaism is not supposed to be an aristocracy unless you mean that everyone is supposed to be an aristocrat. That which most of us are incapable of answering questions and require others to pasken for us is a sad thing.

    Whether Hashkafa should be used depends on what you mean by “Hashkafa.” For example, the Bais Yosef held that Acharonim (like himself) could not decide among a machlokes Rishonim based on their own reasoning and proofs from the Gemara. Therefore, where issues have been clearly discussed by the Rishonim, the Bais Yosef paskens like the majority of the major poskim (as he defined them). The Maharshal held that Acharonim (like himself) could decide among a machlokis Rishonim based on their own reasoning and did so on many issues.

    Arguably, this machlokis between the Bais Yosef and the Maharshal is a hashkafic one that will determine the psak halacha in many cases.

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