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The heteirim of the MO are no different. Their halachic process is the same as ours, they are simply sometimes presented with different extenuating circumstances than we normally are, and so they pasken just as any legitimate Yeshivishe rav would pasken if he were in the same shoes. True, MO ideology differs from Chareidi ideology, but in mehalech hapsak they are exactly the same. Sure, in the MO world you will find a few extreme liberals who will take every obscure kula in the book, but at the same time you will have in the Chareidi world a few radicals who will take every obscure chumra in the book, but these are the ameratzim from both sides. The true Talmidei Chachamim in both groups do not have any major differences in their mehalech hapsak.
The problem becomes when folks shop for the most lenient heteirim amalgamated from all unrelated sources to find the easiest lifestyle.
Yitayningwut: The issue is the motivation. MO aren’t too motivated to be ‘mihadar’ in mitzvas bain adam l’makom, therefore they will usually follow the more lenient view; whereas Chareidim are motivated to be ‘mihadar’ with mitzvas bain adam l’makom, therefore they will generally want to follow the more stringent view.
Most posters here know nothing about MO. They only know what they heard from other ignorant people, who have it drilled into their heads that MO is bad. Do some real research, spend some time in a MO community, and you’ll see that MO people don’t look for every kulah and heter out there.
Yitaningwut: I’m discussing mitzvos bain adam l’makom which are not hard at all to be mihadar in them, like Daled Minim on Sukkos, Matzos on Pesach etc. Charedim are eager and motivated to seek out the mihudar ones, and MO don’t seem to really care much for hidurim. They look at hidurim as a funny concept.
the company manager in los angeles hired a trucker to bring a very important shipment from new york
four days later the trucker arrived
the manager asked him how it went
he said great!
i drove very carefully, never once going over the speed limit
i made sure to sleep the amount required by law
i always kept on the alert
i did everything i was told to
good, so wheres the merchandise?
oh i forgot to bring it.
we were not given the wondrous opportunity to come to this world merely to obey all the laws (though that is of course necessary)
we are here to come closer to Hashem, to praise and thank him in our words and in our actions, in what we do and where we go and how we live and what we are interested in. we are told over and over in the Chumash, Csuvim, Neviim, the Gemorrah, we are an Am Kodesh. we are a SEPARATE people, a people alone, a singular nation dedicated to Hashem alone.
we are in golus, scattered among the nations to see, will we remain an Am Kodesh, a separate Nation, or will we let the interests and values of the goyim become ours. will we let the Yetzer Hora tell us whats the harm? whats the big deal? you can dress and act and do the same things the goyim do and still deliver the merchandise. will we listen?
80 – Wow!! Well said.
I think the reason they are meikel is not because they have a different mehalach halimud. It is an attitude to try and get out of and get away with it the most you can.
If you have a true understanding that you are in this world for avodas hashem it is much easier to be machmir. You understand that avodas hashem is important enough to do lfnim mshuras hadin.
as the gemara in bm 30b says
???? ?’ ????? ?? ???? ??????? ??? ?? ???? ?? ??? ???? ??? ???? ??????? ?????? ??? ???? ??????? ?????? ?? ??? ???? ??? ???? ????? ????? ????:
Chacham, why do you talk like that? There are quite a few MO members of this CR, and you can easily tell that they are full of Yir’as Shamayim.
Why is it even given different names. When you look at the big picture, we are one and the same. We Daven in each other’s Shuls, we eat each other’s Hechsheirim (more often than we realize), we dance together at Simchos and we care and Daven for each other. We keep the same Torah and Mitzvos. Yes, there is a different approach toward modernity and dress, but calm down.
Thanks 80. I greatly appreciate your sensible post.
Lomed, stop it already, we get it,MO’s are a bunch of Yids just looking for an easy way out… And you have all the answers…the MO world values the goyish culture and does everything to appear as if they are goyim. They wear goyish clothes and for those few MO who wear kippas, they wear the smallest ones so no one will notice… you figured it out…
True – but I think people confuse violations of halacha with heteirim. No one has any obligation to be machmir ever, but there are times when people violate halacha and call it a kulah or say they found a heter. In addition, being maikil can lead to violations of halacha so one must be careful.
Why when something is described as a “modern orthodox bungalow colony” you know that is a colloquialism for mixed swimming?
Yitayningwut; Just an addendum to your (original) post. The theory of electricity (similar, in a way to Talmudic discussions and derivatives.) contains a lot of abstract elements (Now I’m being redundant.) that are not evident to the eye, and may, sometimes sound incredulous.
SuperJews: Yep, that sounds very familiar. I have two rebbeim muvhakim, one charedi one MO. I’ll quote both of them.
The charedi one: Anyone two the right of me is a chnyock. Anyone to the left of me is a goy. Really? Come on! Are we 5 years old here? (IIRC, he was talking about golus during parshas b’chukosai)
The MO one: I don’t trifle with such nonsense. You want to talk lashon hara, do it at kiddush. (Someone in the chabura brought up some 100-year-old politics about Rav Weiss’s grandfather and Rav Kook.)
This is one of the most disguting, vile and hate filled threads to appear in the CR in quite some time. Enough bashing other jews. In less than 24 hours is tisha bav, have we learned ANYTHING in 2000+ years?
SuperJew613
Hashem gave us 613 mitzvos, even were we to take care of the issue of not enough Ahavas Yisroel, we would still have the issues of peoples observance level not being up to snuff. To be worthy of Moshiach one has to be keeping the Torah according to the best of ones abilities. I don’t want to scare you or anyone else, but not everyone is going to make the cut vehamayvin yavin…
Mods, how many MO bashing threads is enough for this zman, two, three, four? Feh!
80:
Respectfully, the only way to be Davuk to Hashem is through Limud HaTorah (either personally or vicariously), as per the Gemorah Kesubos that I brought in the other thread.
It is why Limud HaTorah plays such a central role in Yiddishkeit, and (IMHO, but it is probably quoted) why Talmud Torah K’neged Kulam.
Mikehall: I sincerly apologize. I had no intention to hurt your feelings ch”v. I would never in any way equate MO Jews who are shomer Torah U’mitzvos with Goyim ch”v. I was merely discussing philosophy, and I was expressing how I disagree with MO philosophy which I believe made changes to the traditional Orthodox Jewish philosophy. My philosophical opinions do not at all translate into a negative attitude towards any particular Jew who follows MO philosophy. I hope you are mochel me.
WIY –
I am not arguing any points. I am simply stating facts. Threads like these bring out people’s true thoughts and feelings, as being online, one can create a name for his or her self and no one knows who he or she really is. I just wish that everyone would stop with the labels. And just because it may not seem that someone’s “observance level is up to snuff”, you don’t know what Hashem sees. Maybe that guy does not wear a streimel and bekesha and davens in a Young Israel style shul, but he could be the biggest baal middos, the biggest baal chesed. Maybe that woman doesnt cover her hair and is not dressed tziusdikly, but she is always doing for others, runs 3 outstanding chessed organizations and says tehillim daily. MY original point is, if we stop judging the “they” from the outside and the generalizing, WE would be in a better place. It takes baby steps for addicts to recover and return to normal life, maybe we should be taking those baby steps too!
Mikehall: I apologize again. I definitely have no heart to make rifts between our communities. Yes, we all need to perfect ourselves; there are definitely real problems in the Chareidi community. I hope Moshiach will come soon and we will all merit to see the true Geula. I just wish that MO community would look more positively at the Chareidi community, and not perceive them as being backward and Old Shtetl type.
Thank you for the apology and I hope you can forgive me If I offended as well…As for looking at the Chareidi community as “backward” I can assure you that I don’t…
The Chareidi way of life is how it was done for time millennia in Europe before the war.
I read about the Young Israel of New Lots. In its time it was one of the only religious shuls in Brooklyn. Many people became frum because of it
gavra_at_work, Do you actually think that pre-war Brisk, Telz, Mir, Volozhin, were akin to modern orthodox?? Yes, I know there were incidents were some outcasts were caught with kefira in the dorm, but the reason it is mentioned is as the exception.
the company manager in los angeles hired a trucker to bring a very important shipment from new york
recognizing the importance of the package, the driver spent hours ensuring that it was in perfect condition
when a single item was found to be slightly damaged, he waited days for a replacement
unsure if the company manager wanted a sign on the side of the truck advertising the business, he painted his own based on what previous drivers had had, but made it the finest sign on the side of a truck the world had ever seen
he checked and rechecked the equipment on the truck to make sure that the ride would be absolutely smooth
four months later he gets an angry phone call “where is my merchandise?”
“You mean you wanted me on the dangerous road with all that precious cargo?”
Mashalim work both ways. Hashem also created the world that He wants us to be separate from.
Were Sura and Pumpedisa also “recent innovations”? Brisk, Telz, Mir, Volozhin, etc. were all spiritual successors of Sura and Pumpedisa.
The most famous person to come out of Volozhin was Chaim Nathan Bialik
Famous to who? I have no idea who that is.
The most famous person to come out of Northwestern Law School is Jerry Springer, but he hardly carries their banner.
Famous to who? I have no idea who that is.
Google it
zahavasdad: He also left because they weren’t frum enough for him. So what? I thought we were trying to get away from sectarian politics?
A lot more Chareidi men today work than are in Yeshiva, so the similarity to times of yore is more similar than being admitted. I doubt even 10% of Chareidi males over 18 years old are currently in Yeshiva. The derech they practice is the continuation of the derech of Klal Yisroel, with some changes throughout the generations (as golus inevitably does to us) but nevertheless much more similarities.
A lot more Chareidi men today work than are in Yeshiva, so the similarity to times of yore is more similar than being admitted.
Depends on the community and what you define as “Charaidi”. It does not seem to be the case in EY, or even many “Charaidi” towns in America once you take into account “Klei Kodesh”. Also look at ages 18-35 instead of before when full time learning became the norm instead of the exception.
And that in of itself proves the shift. We don’t even do what we did 30 years ago, let alone 100 years!
Now, if you want to define Chareidi without the Kollel vs. working aspect, then I will agree with you, to a large extent. But since full time Kollel has so strongly redefined society, I see it difficult to discuss without it.
I apologize for the typos, the computer automatically changes the words to what is in its dictionary. The correct word was “ANUV” obviously. Please see the humor in this.
Now, if you want to define Chareidi without the Kollel vs. working aspect, then I will agree with you, to a large extent.
Can you please elaborate on that point?
(BTW, I still don’t agree with you on the Kollel aspect. Even in Eretz Yisroel the proportion of Chareidi men in Kollel is a small portion of the number of Chareidi men working. Two points you should consider when analyzing my point is that 1) Chasidim are a large part of the Chareidi population and they generally do not stay in Kollel long (if at all) [but even the non-Chasidic Chareidim are much more working than learning full-time] and 2) Official working figures for Chareidim are very very underreported in Eretz Yisroel due to the draft situation.)
Hacham: “Charaidi” without the learning full time aspect jsu makes for Frum Yidden who work for a living. Hashkafic differences aside, since they have no practical outcome (as everyone follows Hashem, has Bitachon, and does Hishtadlus).
As I have said before, Chossid is not the same as Charaidi.
You are using non-standard definitions of Chareidi. Even the Eida HaChareidis is called that not by coincidence.
Anyways, you still haven’t elaborated on how you said you agree with me, to a large extent, on the definition of Chareidi — sans the Kollel issue.
“Halacha Discussions, Obscure Heteirim, and the Modern Orthodox.”
In this thread I have not seen any halachic discussions, no discussion of hetterim, obscure or well known, only bashing of a segment of jewry that some label “MO” (I suspect that the definition of “MO” even varies among the bashers). Have all moderators taken vacation at the same time?
apushatayid…well said…it seems like the bashing has taken on a feverish pitch…
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