guys its normal for girls to go to seminary

Ad kan? The kid went to school for like 13-14 years already, 9 to 6 every day. B’H she is going to be married in a couple of years. Maybe parents want to spend some quality time with the kid for a couple of years in between instead of sending her away to learn something else from some other people they (parents) do not know well?

I’ve ears there are some seminaries that the girls learn Gemara

Ejmr, you are following Rehoboam preferring young advisors to older ones with disaster to follow. If you aren’t sure what I mean, ask your wife to locate this gemora for you

I disagree. I don’t think a blanket statement can be made that people invest more in their boys. Are there families where that is the case? For sure! But the whole baby-making-machine argument is balogna!

EJM > Everyone all of a sudden gets suprised when girls start watching tv behind their husband’s back.

I just do not agree that Torah study’s main application is substitute for the desire to watch TV whether for boys or girls. When used like that, you are not moving towards emes.

EJM, I think the disparity was bigger 100 years ago. From some lady’s story in Poland: father and brothers went to Rebbe’s tisch for yom tov, and mother and us were sitting at home, not knowing what to do…

As to the younger Rav, I would never vote to fire an old one and hire a new one without a cause just because “we need to attract younger people” or something like that. I also haven’t been to tristate for more than a quick visit for the last decade.

It’s very difficult to weigh the increasingly outlandish costs of seminaries in Eretz Yisroel against the need for the best shidduch.

Do we really want a world split between those who can afford to spend $30,000 on their daughters to go to sem and those who send somewhere in America?

YS, the cost factor seem to be the “keep up with Joneses” phenomenon.

For those who go into chinuch, seminary is, of course, a prudent investment into future profession.

For people with more income, $30K/year is higher than BY but comparable/lower to college, and they can go to places where classes will be transferred for college credit.

Now for those in between, who are getting substantial discounts in schools and who plan to have grants/loans for college or do not plan to go there, the $30K is a shocking number.

AAQ: Many parents are not yet comfortable with their yinglach going off on their own overseas while in their early teens. This would include seminary in EY or any other “year abroad”

GH, I understand. Still, it may depend on a teen and on parents. If the experience is so transformational and inspiring (and I think for many it is), then why delay it. Maybe send a responsible older teen with younger ones to learn in the same place.

Again, I understand that this is an obviously right choice for those who will become chinuch/ community professionals, my question is for those who will go into professions. How many years are required to form a responsible Jewish person, who will continue to be shomer Torah and mitzvos and continue learning and participating in the community? We are often creating a hard step off – the kid learns, learns, and then suddenly he is responsible for family, work, college, all at the same time. I’d rather see kids gradually becoming responsible – go to work or college under parental supervision to make sure they continue mitzvos and learning in that environment, and do not acquire bad ideas, and then know how they’ll support family before getting married. Rambam writes along similar lines – get a job, house, get married.

Also, I don’t know anywhere that they can get a degree for less than the cost of seminary (which I think is more like 21k than 30k)

“You can go to a local college and sleep at home, pay in-state tuition costs, and get a full 4 year degree for less than half of one year in seminary.”

“one years tuition at Queens College is $18,700”

???
at 18.7 a year, 4 years would be $74,000. Which is not half of one year of seminary. I’m assuming there’s a typo in here?

Syag > i haven’t seen that line of motivation for seminary attendance anywhere except from people on the outside

My daughters were told, repeatedly, by their primary teacher that their lives will be ruined without a seminary, they’ll have no friends, possibly something about shidduch also that they did not pass to us.

Yserbius – you made a statement that I was trying to understand so I asked you to clarify. You responded with info that didn’t match and now you are saying it isn’t actually the info you were referencing. So seriously, I have no interest in arguing, I was really curious if that was true or if you just meant it loosely to make the point that sem is costly.

At first I was going to say that there is a good chance that your daughters are misrepresenting their teacher’s words, as most children of all ages will do, especially when wanting to plead their case. But after all our conversations here I have seen you take 90% of the things I say and turn them into other things, which i thought was intentional but then came to the conclusion it is how you receive/interpret it. So when you are in defense mode, which you definitely are with those schools, and your child says something in the name of the teacher that you disagree with, no doubt it sounds louder and more aggressive in your ears. You should seriously consider a mediator to hear out what you think the school says and find out from the schools what they really say.

I think that you have displayed a fair amount of skepticism about the lifestyle they were learning about and I would have to question your ability to fairly interpret anything you hear coming from them. I also know that that is a very difficult position for your girls to be in. The catch 22 now is that you have spent all your posting years feigning innocence over all the derogatory comments about the bais yaakov life and system, claiming you don’t even know what I am referring to when I point it out. So now you won’t be able to tell me you held your tongue in front of your girls because that would be an admission that you are actually aware. And trust me, there aint no way they didn’t pick up on it whether you “meant it” or not.

Can we at very least agree that for the amount of money seminary costs, the sem should at very least supply three full meals a day and a full Shabbos? I know this was the case in 2021 when sems were forced to make girls stay in all the time, but did it continue?

There is a google doc flowing around internet that people edit with school costs. When I find it again, I’ll quote.

Syag > and find out from the schools what they really say.

I did go and talk to that teacher during PTA, (and to other teachers, and to the principal whom I knew for years). Her focus was on asking me when is the time to apply for seminary. I was politely evasive about it, she then paternalistically (maternalistically?) said – if you can’t afford, I can help you find one that is free/affordable (I am glad that the school is not sharing financial info with teachers :). In her defense, I do not wear a hat like her husband, and our kids transferred from another school that the teacher considers inferior (“I know less chazal than others” cried one for several first months), so the teacher seemingly was in “kiruv” mode. School concern for the kids had a limit though: when we decided to leave, two of the girls made an awesome offer that I could not refuse – they would do secular subjects in a different place and go for some of the Jewish classes at BY. I was very proud of them. But it was a non-starter for the school – “what if others ask for the same”.

I think we zeroed on the reason for our different perception (in addition to possibly better schools in your big city): many schools work if you are satisfied with the product – either you fit into their worldview exactly or/and you are not aware of what you are missing. I don’t think it is an issue only in small communities. I know of a couple of families that moved to a too-“frum” NY satellite cities and were politely told by numerous schools that “you will not be happy here”. Maybe it is a by-product of spectacular growth of our communities in recent decades.

Syag,
I also tried a mediator, I asked shailos, etc.
I appreciate your help trying to manage my affairs over the newsgroup. I am fine, thanks. I am trying to discuss general issues here, using my experiences as an illustration. you are questioning my every word, pushing me for more illustrations, and then you don’t believe those.

Syag, I am very interested in your or others’ challenges, but please talk to the substance rather than just saying that you disagree.