Guns

1
nice
nailed it!

There are a few others you forgot see here for some classic “talking points”

ooh ooh pick me pick me!

“People don’t live in states per se, ”
interesting. Thats something I didint know, I’m not quite sure how to respond to that

anon

“For over 200 hundred years that was exactly how it was understood”

Um no. In fact I never even heard any one make that argument. conservatives say it was misinterpreted for 200 years until it was finally correctly interpreted in 2008. (See an excellent few pages on the subject in the annotated constitution available on the library of congress’s website)

In 1990 Warren Burger labeled the idea that the Second Amendment gives an unfettered individual right to a gun a”fraud on the American public.” This comment was not met by much opposition outside of some fringe groups way back in 1990. can you find any source arguing that the 2nd amendment is not limited to a militia from before say, the 70’s when the NRA shifted their focus from lobbying for gun safety to lobbying against it?

Also I can’t help but notice you havent answered my question: suppose the constitution said ” A healthy breakfast being critical to start the day, the right of the people to eat cereal shall not be infringed”
would this guarantee the right to eat fruity pebbles?

“You seriously brought an example of Missouri, a STATE to make an argument why a CITY has the highest gun violence?”

sure, why not? A City is smaller than a state the more data you look at the more accurate your findinngs.
For super accurate findings look at the trend among all 50 states comparing gun restrictions vs deaths.
On second thought you may not want to, as it may force you to reevaluate your position .

“USA has a second amendment. Israel does not. Period. ”
You made this argument. I just dont understand it. I am not comparing the US to ISrael, that was 2scents. I replied why the comparison was wrong.
And again if the second amendment is stupid why should we be stuck with it no matter what? This is one of the strangest arguments coming from the pro-gun side. and if it isnt stuid, argue why it is good plicy, but to just say well it is the law so too bad no matter how bad it is, just doesnt make sense.

“Israel has a mandatory draft, should USA have it too? ”
No, why ?

“Israel is a socialist country”
Is it? ,

” should USA be too? Don’t answer that!”
[redacted at asker’s request]

“Can you tell me how long it too for the Pittsburgh police to enter the shul? ”

so I had to look it up it took 40 minutes. Just so I have your argument right, you are saying that while it took trained armed SWAT team members called in to take him down, over 30 hour to subdue the gunman. It would’ve been faster for elderly untrained individuals surprised by the gunman. Is that really your argument?

and even if true. This argument is like my patient who takes both colace and Imodium.
And in no way discredits the main part of my argument, namely that gun ownership should be tightly regulated

“When you get your response, you’ll know why citizens should own guns.”
Nope, I got the response and I still dont know why they “should”. and I never said they shouldn’t. so I’m not even sure where this line of “reasoning” was going

uniq:
so I had to look it up it took 40 minutes. Just so I have your argument right, you are saying that while it took trained armed SWAT team members called in to take him down, over 30 hour to subdue the gunman. It would’ve been faster for elderly untrained individuals surprised by the gunman. Is that really your argument?

And it took over 90 minutes for the Pulse Night club shooting. My argument is for TRAINED citizens to bear arms. As you can see, it is more effective than police. In all the cases, the standard procedure for the police is to wait for SWAT, and after 10 minutes, most of the shootings are over. So yes, my argument is that trained people should own guns and at least have a fighting chance.

The problem is that not enough good people have guns.

Ubiq: Police only need to re-certify once a year. You are not safer with police having guns than someone who is more interested in his own welfare. Please youtube those sad but funny videos showing they can’t shoot for their life!

You do know that in order to obtain a license there are background checks, training with the sheriff department on the laws, and treatment on how to handle a gun. That is only for a sporting license. New York city does not give concealed weapons permits unless you prove that you are a target.

” A healthy breakfast being critical to start the day, the right of the children to eat cereal shall not be infringed”
would this guarantee the right of the children to eat fruity pebbles?
If cereal equates to fruity pebbles, then YES. The same way Arms is equated to guns.

Whoa hold up! Earlier yo u said we cant compare USA to Israel and that if we do it somehow meant we had to have a draft and socialism
and besides I’m not sure where you get your stats from, with the exception of Switzerland all the countries you lsit have far fewer guns, and of course far fewer homicides than the US

Actually, the states came from a research website that listed the countries gun laws versus homicide.

“While Israel has standards for gun ownership, every 18 year old carries one”
This is false.
Sorry-This is true! Have you been there? Regardless of who OWNS the gun, every 18 year old is drafted into the army and handles a gun. So in essence, you have a bunch of 18 year old handling long guns.

“The guns are registered, psychological profiles must be passed and reassesed.”
Regardless who it is registered, you still have 18 year olds handling guns. Their psychological exam is only a 30 minutes to determine your cognitive skills to see how long you can be in combat. The more deeper you are, the better combat unit you can go into. It is not about can they issue you a gun.

” Look yo ucant have it both ways”- same her….either way it is an argument for guns. But Israel does not have a second amendment that guarantees that right, so yes, they can add additional requirements.

“Um yeah, and some scientists are now saying death by suicide is just as dead as homicide”- So you worried about people killing themselves or killing others? If it is themselves, then remove knives, cars, and bridges and people use them to kill themselves too.

Are you serious? I’m happy to explain the difference if you really need it explained. But for the record, d you not see the difference?
per the FBI report in 2016, 374 people were killed in mass shootings, versus 1604 for knives. So why legislate against the weapon of choice versus knives?

“Yep, though some studies are showing that black people are people too. I know I know thats pretty liberal of me.”- Yes, and that is why Chicago has a high homicide rate. So it has nothing to do with the laws, but the people.

“Do I have the right to own grenades? “that is the same gibberish has asking you should own nukes. There are great papers on that.

” Just becasue other people will abuse this priverlage means I shouldnt be allowed to run reds?” I guess that is why people outside NYC is allowed to turn right on red, because people don’t abuse it. So yes!

Anon1 -““Yep, though some studies are showing that black people are people too. I know I know thats pretty liberal of me.”- Yes, and that is why Chicago has a high homicide rate. So it has nothing to do with the laws, but the people.”

You’re wrong! Most inner cities have liberal laws, therefore they have high crime rates.

“The arguments that are being made is like trying to stop drunk drivers from killing sober drivers?”

Nope its like minnimizing drunk drivers by not allowing even an open drink in a car.

” Ban all sober drivers from driving.”
Thats going to far, but ok lets follow YOUR lead …

If we treated guns like cars that would be great:
– mandatory safety features
– they have to be registered
– need to buy insurance
– need to pass test to know how to safely use it
– need to pass a test to make sure you can see
– need to get a license, and reaaply every decade
– above license can be revoked for certain infarctions

I knew you would come around you are more pro-life than I am

I have no idea where that other user name came from

anon
NONE of these measure exist in the US. Definitely not routinely, and most dont exist at all.
I can imagine your outrage

(Though I’m a bit confused since earlier you said these measures would only work in Israel because they have a draft, and we have second amendment, of course you then said they dont exist in Israel. now you are saying they do exist in America your position and information is wildly all over the place

Uniq:
Unfortunately, the Mods did not approve my other post, but in short, please educate yourself prior to posting nonsense like “NONE of these measure exist in the US. Definitely not routinely, and most dont exist at all”
In Chicago, it is virtually impossible to own a handgun, yet, it has the highest crime rate. New York requires a psych background check, criminal background check etc. I cannot google all of it, but please do some research prior to posting garbage. Yes, I already know you will find an example that is “poresh min hatzibur”, but you need to look at the riov.

Health: We can agree if you commit a crime, there should be tougher punishments. But that’s the catch 22, in liberal states they are soft on crime because they feel criminals can be reformed.

Maybe we should make the country less big by dividing it into 50 more manageable pieces.

Ubiq, come back and talk to us about your virtue-signaling, righteous high-horse, brain-dead liberal mishugas once masked thugs kick your door in at 3AM with your wife and
young kids at home. Until then, you’re entitled to wear whatever rose-colored glasses you want, but just realize that to those of us who understand the need for gun ownership, the opinion you preach from that omniscient throne of yours is complacent, brainless, and outright dangerous. Please leave my right for self perseveration alone. Thank you.

curiosity

“once masked thugs kick your door in at 3AM with your wife and”

Wow
1. that isnt a nice thing to wish
2. I don’t follow your “logic” Are you saying people can only make arguments once they have faced an emotional trauma? Are you saying dumb arguments become better when spoken by people faced with emotianl trauma? with Are you saying that you dont have any logical defense of guns that you are forced to fall back on some mean spirited emotional retort?
you remind me of anti-vaxers who when faced with overwhelming evidence as to the stupidty o their position respond with “Oh yeah tell that to my sister whose child became autistic from vaccines” How does that contribute to the conversation
3. any such masked thug might be faced with the barrel of my Glock. you say ” but just realize that to those of us who understand the need for gun ownership” Ive said several times I understand the need for gun ownership, for all you know I have one (or several in case my buddies show up to help defend my hjome against 10 masked thugs I guess?) . I just want to try to prevent said masked intruder from being armed by requiring universal background checks, gun registries etc is that really a “complacent, brainless, and outright dangerous” position ? Does that really warrant wisihing for masked intruders?

“Please leave my right for self perseveration alone.”

no can do. Here’s hoping the next president recognizes a real national emergency and finally does some thing about guns. frankly you seem a bit unhinged and I’m more afraid of the thought of you having access to a gun than I am of “masked thugs kicking in my door”

anon
“I illustrated numerous times that background checks and gun registries are mandatory”

You didnt illustrate it once , and it is demonstrably false. Look up the (poorly named) “gunshow loophole”

as for registries:
A national registry is actually illegal see 18 U.S.C. § 926(a)
and I quote :”No such rule or regulation prescribed after the date of the enactment of the Firearms Owners’ Protection Act may require that records required to be maintained under this chapter or any portion of the contents of such records, be recorded at or transferred to a facility owned, managed, or controlled by the United States or any State or any political subdivision thereof, nor that any system of registration of firearms, firearms owners, or firearms transactions or dispositions be established”

and 28 C.F.R. § 25.9(b)(3)
“Limitation on use. The NICS, including the NICS Audit Log, may not be used by any Department, agency, officer, or employee of the United States to establish any system for the registration of firearms, firearm owners, or firearm transactions or dispositions, except with respect to persons prohibited from receiving a firearm by 18 U.S.C. 922(g) or (n) or by state law. The NICS Audit Log will be monitored and reviewed on a regular basis to detect any possible misuse of NICS data.”

As for states, only Hawaii requires all guns to be registered (and DC), NY has registry for handguns only (and large caliber rifle) .
some states such as FLA, DE, GA, ID, PA, RI, SD and Vt, like in the Federal Govt registries are illega.

I’d be happy to cite all the above but out of mercy for the mods I’ll limit to PA since its the closest
from PA gen assembly title 18 .
Ҥ 6111.4. Registration of firearms.

Notwithstanding any section of this chapter to the contrary, nothing in this chapter shall be construed to allow any government or law enforcement agency or any agent thereof to create, maintain or operate any registry of firearm ownership within this Commonwealth. For the purposes of this section only, the term “firearm” shall include any weapon that is designed to or may readily be converted to expel any projectile by the action of an explosive or the frame or receiver of any such weapon.”l

“What else would you like?”

i’ll settle for these two. Now that IVe shown you that your information was wrong. will you a. apologize and/or b. agree that reform is needed
(i’ll settle for b)

BTW
curiosity
Using your” logic” are only those (not you r”l) who have had a loved one shot in say, a school shooting allowed to have an opinion? So in order to avoid “irtue-signaling, righteous high-horse, brain-dead liberal mishugas” They would have to have been both attacked by masked intruders AND had a child shot in school THEN they could tell us which is more importtant. do I have this right?

“Pray tell how a national gun registry would reduce illegal guns?”

Gladly!
but first ,
where do we stand on this, you said ” I illustrated numerous times that background checks and gun registries are mandatory” Did you really?

Also, You indicated in a few posts, (though perhaps never said it outright) that you support background checks/gun registries, now that you are realizing how mistaken you are, (and how little you know on the subjec)t, are you changing your mind ?

anon
“please read up on U.S. v. Haynes (1968) why a national gun registration is unconstitutional.”

I have and I know. Please stop changing the subject.
youve brought up “constituional” several times.
It is an absurd argument
1. The constitution isnt absolute. Even in haynes there was a dissenter (and Marshal abstained) . Maybe today 5 justices would find it constitutional. “Separate but equal” was deemed constitutional until it wasn’t. The constitution isnt absolute
2. We arent discussing whether a registry can feasibly be created. IThe question is whether it is a good idea. If you concede ” yes it might be a good idea, but what can we do the constitution doesn’t allow it” then we can move on to discussing whether it can fit with the constitution . In other words, say we are arguing whether regarding football players kneeling. I’m arguing its disrespectful and creates bad vibes at what shouldn’t be a political event , and youre arguing that it is bringing attention to an important problem. It is silly for you to bring up “oh but the constituion allows it…” Yes it may, but we are discussing the appropriateness of the act. the constitution is a dodge.

3. Please read up on U.S. v. Freed (1971)

“However, as I stated and you correctly pointed out, it is only mandatory at state level, and only some of them do it.”

Exactly! and practically speaking there isnt much difference between states. Often when driving, you may not even know what state you are in . Thus strict gun laws in , say NY are hampered by the fact that a few hours drive will get you to Pennsylvania where you DO NOT need to pass a background check to buy from a private seller (except handguns, for handguns Youd have to drive a bit further to say Ohio).
Abdul can show up at a gunshow say “Hi I’m on the no-fly list but I need to buy 20 unregistered guns preferably with large magazines, but I cant pass a background check, please direct me to the private sellers where I can stock up on the 20 guns I need to protect my home from “masked thugs” ”

Do you really think that wanting to prevent that from legally occuring is a “complacent, brainless, and outright dangerous position ”

Or perhaps is the reverse true ….

“However, backgorund checks IS mandatory on a federal level.”

Nope, see 18 U.S.C § 921(a)(21)(C) only if purchased from a “dealer” this is the so-called “gunshow loophole” Ive been telling you about

Replace guns with Jews.

Why? Maybe we should replace guns with cocaine.

“the court has to ruled otherwise!”

Yes obviously, I’m not saying my opinion (nor the lone dissenter’s) Trumps the court (Is that what you thought I meant?)
though it can be done in ways that fit the constituion. see U.S. v. Freed (1971) that I mentioned.

“No, the constitutions protects individuals from corrupt governments that want to impose their tyrannical ideology on the masses.”

So opposing abortions is “corrupt governments that want to impose their tyrannical ideology on the masses.”
After all the supreme court ruled that it was protected. So according to you that now defines opposing it as a “tyrannical ideology”

Do I have this right?

“Would you have any objection for the government to require all the Jews to register themselves in a national database?”

I don’t follow, are Jews dangerous?

” which will NOT prevent gun violence,”
Why not? (probably) helps in Israel

“No, the loophole is private sellers”
I’m not sure what “no” refers to, that is what IVe been saying

“Abdul can show up at a gunshow say “Hi I’m on the no-fly list but I need to buy 20 unregistered guns preferably with large magazines, but I cant pass a background check, please direct me to the private sellers where I can stock up on the 20 guns I need to protect my home from “masked thugs” ””

do you think that is something we should stop or a neccesary evil (or good !?) to avoid penalizing law abiding citizens. by having them register guns (Though for soem reason car registration is not a penalty)

“If there was an amendment that everyone can own a car,”

you keep making the same silly mistake. The constitution and the supreme court are not torah Misiani lehavdil.
If you oppose abortion it doesn’t become “right” just because the supreme court says it is or even if an amendment gets added enshrining abortion as a “right”.

If unrestricted access to guns is a bad idea, then even if the constitution DID grant that, (though as mentioned it doesn’t) it STILL would not become a good idea.

“However, since this is the law, there is nothing that can be done besides protesting.”
That is absurd. you have no idea how government works. Laws can change. amendments can be added (thats why they are called amendments) The supreme court can (and has) changed their opinion. these are elementary concepts as to how government works. Its is amazing that you think “nothing can be done” once a law is in place, you have made lots of wrong staments in thsi thread. but this one ” since this is the law, there is nothing that can be done besides protesting.” i’s flabbergasting

I’d like to respond to your Jews part, but I dont really understand the comparison .

“There is no gun problem with law abiding citizens. ”
Ah except that there is! accidental gun deaths, are a problem too.
and besides, this line is silly, since often they are law abiding until they arent
and again we require car registries even though there is no problem. and please please dont tell me that cars arent protected, youve said thsi illogical argument 10 times it wont start making sense now (unless you can explain WHY say gun registries are bad. )

“The issues arises from criminals who won;t be registering their guns and get everything illegally anyways. .
So….. lets make it easier for them and harder to trace source of htheir guns. got it.
Is that your approach to drugs too. Lets sell percocet at supermarket checkout counters since criminlas wil l get it anyway. Why penalize law abiding citizens ( in pain no less) make them go to a doctor then a pharmacy

“So what you are suggesting is instead of penalizing the criminals, you also include the law abiding citizens. How’s that for democracy?”

who is penalizing anyone? I have to wait at a red light, is that a penalty? It is a rule that keeps everyone safer. That is EXACTLY how democracy works. We all give up some freedoms (eg running red lights) for the betterment of society.
you really need a civics lesson

and again you havent answered my question about Abdul.

Look, as Ive said if you say, “hey I like guns I dont care that we have one of the highest gun deaths in the world. It is part of my freedom to be allowed to buy 20 guns with no questions act.
I get that I really do. we can agree to disagree on that point”.

But be clear with your position, stop pretending we are forced by the constitution, or that other countries have this problem,, stop making illogical arguments like criminals will break the law anyway why try to stop them, Just recognize your own position., and be logical about it

Cocaine was not made illegal for public safety. It may be that it is right for it to be illegal, but that’s just a coincidence.

“I wouldn’t call it Bipartisan when only 8 Republicans voted for it.”

Lol me neither, I dint name it. why give credit to an anti-life party.

“Until ruled otherwise, a law is torah misinai until another court replaces.”
I dont think you know what “misinai” means
and again. The ruling you cited WAS (somewhat) overturned by Freed in 71′ deeming a national registry not unconstitutional.

“You are living in La La land and basing your arguments on the “What If” scenario.”
Just so I have this right , abortion is justified, and anybody who opposes it is trying to ” impose their tyrannical ideology on the masses.” correct?

“1) Car registration is not federal. As you already pointed out, even gun registration is state level.”
I dont follow. Ok so let every state have mandatory gun registration. I’m fine with that. I didint mean it HAD to be at the federal level.

“2) Car registration is a simple fee, same as gun licensing. The test is also very simple and majority of Americans pass it on the first try.”
I dont follow, ok so make gun registration a simple fee and a simple test. I’m not sure what you are saying

“3) Car registration and licenses are revoked for a period amount of time if you misuse your car. Should the same apply with guns? No.”

Seriously? Are you saying If a person misuses his gun he should be allowed to keep it? Do I have your opinion correct? (I have to assume this was a typo of some sort)

“4) Nearly 1.25 million people die in road crashes each year, on average 3,287 deaths a day. An additional 20-50 million are injured or disabled. Based on your logic, we should ban all vehicles!”

youve asked this several times. I dont follow youll have to walk me through this point slowly how you reached that conclusion.

“So what should we discuss, 40,000 people that die from gun violence (2/3 from suicide) or the 1.25 MILLION that are killed by a dangerous weapon??”

BOTH! why limit discussions? Lets try to lower that number of people who die from gun violoence including those by sucicide AND those killed with a dangerous weapon.

” including a majority of Republicans and even a majority of nra members.” Seriously? ”
Yep, seriously

In congress it doesnt have support. because the NRA is blood thirsty and lines the pockets of senators wit htheir blood money.
A majority of americans, yes even Republicans and Yes even NRA MEMBERS are good people, who care about gun safety (this was the NRA’s opriginal goal unitl the 70’s when they switched to unrestricted gun ownership) support universal background checks

Look up “Do majority of NRA members support background checks for guns?” On politifact .com you will fins links to many surveys showing widespread support for universal background checks

“You crack me up with your misinformation.”
Lol!