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What is your opinion? Should they build it or not? What do you think about Obama and Bloomberg’s comments?
My personal opinion is that they SHOULD build it. But not 13 floors. It should be 19 stories. And each floor dedicated to the hijackers on 9/11.
What I find scary about this whole thing is they’ll build one mosque, than another and another….and than they will literally just take over!
It should be built.
As jews we should appreciate the freedom of religion and the right to build shuls wherever the zoning allows. to pick and choose whom we allow is a slippery slope.
EDITED
How would your grandparents feel if the Germans would build a nice religious builing right next to Auschwitz… There has to be a line whats considered freedom of religion.
Arc, agreed.
No, it should not be built. The freedom of religion does not apply to a religion that BANS ALL freedom of religion. You cannot brutally murder your parents and then come before the judge asking for clememncy on the grounds that you are an orphan, nebbich.
No one disputes the legal right for someone to build on property that belongs to him (though in many neighborhoods there are zoning laws that restrict those rights to an extent). But we are not talking about RIGHTS, but whether or not it is RIGHT to do it.
The Muslim agenda is very clear. The fact that as soon as there was a great outcry and they did not back off, shows that the Muslims do not care one whit for the sensibilities of the people who lost loved ones, or for the rest of us who simply commiserate with the, It takes not concern of the firefighters, police, EMS workers, other medical personnell who were injured or died trying to rescue people frfom the aftermath of what these maniacs did.
I don’t even care if it is only a “small segment of the population” who are terrorists. that is baloney and we all know it. But even if that were so, none of the Imams (especially the one associated with this mosque) has ever publicly and decisively denounced Muslim terrorism. Sorry, but they have no right to shout fire metaphorically in a crowded theater.
The biggest insuklt is when people say,”Well would you have the same objection if a church or synagogue was being built there?” WHAT??? HAVE WE LOST OUR COLLECTIVE MINDS? Did a Christian or Jewish group hijack three planes and murder thousands of people in the space of a few minutes? it is not the OBJECT but the people who want to build it and gloat in what it symbolizes, that we find objectionable. This is not just flak we are giving the Imam. He has to get the message loud and clear.
“to pick and choose whom we allow is a slippery slope.”
Picking and choosing is when two groups have equal rights and one gets chosen over the other for no apparent reason- THAT’S a slippery slope but this case is totally different- its terribly insensitive to the family members of the many poor victims who perished in this sick attack and if your that desperate for freedom and religion then go build somewhere else- why davka here??? Its like the Japanese building a huge center next to Pearl Harbor…
I sincerely think this is the truth in the situation. Anyone with me?
Im all with you- see my previous post
Do we govern on insensitivities?
Why did they choose this location? Because they had a lease with an option to buy. Its a great location, great size and perfect for them. And it was an easy purchase.
IMO, backing down now would be like admitting they are partially responsible. Islam is a religion – not every muslim caused the terror attacks.
Do you want your shuls questioned? How about when they stop allowing zoning for your shul because there is one (halachically accceotable) shul three houses away?
Freedom means allowing others to do things you don’t like. All because you want freedom when its time for you to choose.
blinky- sorry didn’t notice your previous post you basically wrote in short what I wrote…
I don’t think there’s space to argue our point at all.
SJS- Im beginning to get worried that you wear one of those black veils…lol
I agree that it’s insensitve and the “wisdom behind the location” is lacking. I still think it’s their right to build there.
This is America we dont care what other countries or even the home countries practice.
switch muslim for other religions and we’ll be singing a different tune.
SJS-
Is every Christian responsible for the bloodshed of the Crusades?
For the Inquisition? For the blood libels? Is Christianity responsible? Or is it just the individual soldiers of Christendom who are responsible, and their unfortunate coreligionists merely innocent spectators?
SJSinNYC-
I’d like to respectfully disagree with you on this.
Islam is a religion and as long as they are practicing their religion in a way that doesn’t affect others they should be free to do what they want in the United States.
With that being said, I agree that the vast majority of Muslims want peace and consider Islam to be a religion of peace.
BUT, if they know that there were thousands of innocent people killed right there in the name of their religion- they should show some consideration to the sensitivities of those who lost loved ones and accept an offer of another location.
is every german responsible for the holocaust?
the xian nation is responsible as a whole
collective responsibility is a Torah concept.
there is additionally a logical rationale for this.
too complicated for me to go into now
80-
You are getting at the same point as I am.
oh
i wasnt really following the thread
i just saw your post isolated
good
i didnt want to get into an argument with you
“With that being said, I agree that the vast majority of Muslims want peace and consider Islam to be a religion of peace. “
thats a nice thought DP, and oft said
is it true?
i dont think so
look what they teach their children in school.
Squeak, if you are talking about a movement (and the Inquisition, blood libels etc) was a movement that stemmed from Christian leadership. Those leaders and followers are absolutely responsible [with the exception of followers who protested].
Do you want the world to judge us by Neturei Karta?
As to the sensitivity aspect – I have no right to dictate their sensitivities as long as they are building legally. Sure, protest all you want, but there is no real reason for then to change their plans.
Should Rosa Parks have sat on the back of the bus so as not to offend people? White people WERE offended by blacks back in the day.
Again, freedom means allowing others to do things you don’t approve of as it gives you the same rights.
take it, squeak
Lets look at things we teach in schools:
1) Jews are better than everyone
2) In the times of Moshiach, righteous non-Jews are going to be our slaves
If you read Tanach, we had a bloody history. Granted, all sanctioned by Hashem. But they believe theirs is also.
Moderator-80-
There are many moderate Muslim countries where the children are not taught hate. The contents of the text books there are not what makes the news. There are also large Muslim communities in Non-Muslim countries where the Islamic students use whatever text books are used by the rest of the school system.
Wake up and get real people!
This isn’t about religious freedom! There are already dozens (or more) mosques in New York! This is about them making a political statement! Don’t compare this to (or worry about) OUR ability to build shuls. WE DIDN’T COMMIT A TERRORIST ATTACK HERE! (and – when they DO start banning shuls here, it wont matter that we didn’t).
Do you really think they want a mosque DAVKA near Ground Zero for the sake of peace and healing?!?!
They want it there to “twist the knife”!
What is in their hearts is “We attacked you, We killed thousands of you, NOW we will use YOUR own stupid political correctness to commemorate our victory by building a mosque on your graves!!!”
-Look at what is happening in France! It is OVERRUN with moslems and mosques. The French are running for their cultural (soon to be physical) lives! A huge percentage of french jews have gotten the wake-up call and are running to make aliyah.
If these pere-adam yishmaelim REALLY wanted healing and peace they wouldn’t push to build a mosque in the ONLY location that the vast majority of New Yorkers are wildly opposed to!
SJS- we might teach that we are the chosen nation and everything, but we don’t go prancing it and terrorizing everone because we are the elite.
As long as the mosque is not funded by terorist organsations or actively supporting terrorists they have a right to beleive and practice what they want were they want. Even if they beleive and preach that American culture is rotten and disgusting (somthing they may be right about)and that in an ideal world evreyone would be Muslim. Even if they preach things that evreyone else finds offensive. They still have that right. In a democrocy you have the right say, beleive, and do what you want no matter how offensive it is. That’s what comes along with living in America.
The people who beleive that the mosque is funded by terorists should take their proofs of this to court, if it is found to be true it will not be built.
Islam is by its nature (according to the ‘pashut’ reading of the Quran) a controlling and an intolerant religion! There I said it! Forget about contemporary Talibans and Wahabis, since its very creation, Islam has subscribed to the belief that Christians and Jews are Dhimmis thus making them subserviant to Muslims under Shariyah law.
It’s bad enough to have a growing Muslim population in America, I don’t want it in my back yard in NY! And if it means using logic like not allowing a mosque on WTC grounds, then I’m up for using whatever it takes to prevent Islam from growing here.
This is also not a mosque, but a community center. With a prayer room.
Its annoying to me to see so many frum people parroting things catholics like Sean Hannity etc. say all day. Christains are no great friends of ours either and probably hate us just as much as the muslims, whatever a christain may say in public or on the radio they beleive that we killed their “god” and are going to burn forever for rejecting him. Their “saints” are by and large people who would have had no problem tourtering Jewish children to death. Just because in the past couple of hundred years it has become unfashionable to say these things in public in western society dosnt change what their religion is and has been for the past couple of thousand years.
Our history with muslims is a by and large a whole lot better. Muslims let Jews and christains live in their lands (with certain restrictions but generaly not as bad as those in christain countrys) while many catholic countrys were expelling us and inciting progroms.
SJS-
I’m glad you notice the similarities. Now let’s note the differences.
Let’s leave the “bloody history” of Tanach for a different discussion. Let it suffice for here to say that it is not an example of persecution.
At the most simplistic level, the difference is that we write off the NK as misguided (read: unguided) loonies with perverted sense of right and wrong, while the actions of the Crusaders and Jihadists are designed, sanctioned, and/or supported by the rank leaders of the faith. As such, all followers of the faith are buying in to that “service of G-d” (or god, as the case may be) by recognizing that leadership. In the case of NK it is quite clear that Jewish leadership and their followers denounce them and their actions. We do not support them financially or otherwise. We vocally condemn their atrocities (atrocities by our standards, not the much lower standards of the general public).
In the case of the Christian Crusaders, no one denies that the opposite is true – the holy war and the pillaging of communities was indeed sanctioned by the pope himself, as was the Inquisition. That is why it is important that the current leaders of the religion publicly distance themselves from those atrocities- so as to not be counted as a participant.
In the case of the Muslims of today, it is a bit more murky – in that although it has been proven time and again that terrorism is directed, funded, and encouraged by Islamic leadership, they still deny it for PR reasons and pretend that each individual terrorist is a random misguided loony. Which is precisely what makes these conversations difficult – because there are two sides here, 1) you can take the Muslim leaders seriously, or 2) you can just add lying to the world to the list of their crimes against humanity.
I don’t expect you to change your mind, but I will stand solidly behind what I am saying – Muslims collectively do not refuse to be associated with the leadership that has shown involvement with Jihadists. They do not condemn and distance themselves from the “loonies”, except when the cameras are rolling. As long as the worshipers continue to follow such leaders, they are giving tacit approval to the decisions by the leaders to support the war against the rest of the world.
baruch1 said,
“Islam is by its nature (according to the ‘pashut’ reading of the Quran) a controlling and an intolerant religion! There I said it! Forget about contemporary Talibans and Wahabis, since its very creation, Islam has subscribed to the belief that Christians and Jews are Dhimmis thus making them subserviant to Muslims under Shariyah law. “
Thats not a reason to make it illegal to build a mosque. Christianity beleives that Jews are evil and deserve to die for rejecting their mamzer as well. Churches arn’t illegal. If someone had proof that the mosque was going to be used to actively support murder they should take their proofs to court
Baruch-1:
Bava Kamma 38a!
646-
Note that the conversation has steered away from the question “should they be allowed to build a mosque”.
Building there is simply in poor taste. Poor taste is not illegal in this country, as evidenced by the jokes that start to go around when there is an election.
But illegal? Should they be stopped from building there? Certainly not. People are merely appealing to the sensibilities of those making the decision to build. Apparently, those sensibilities are lacking.
Squeak,
Agreed!
000646
Member
Squeak,
Agreed!
Uh oh…
😉
Squeak, unfortunately, a lot of Muslims are afraid to speak out for fear of retribution. Right or wrong.
And I agree with a lot of your assessment. Including that it is in poor taste. But I don’t dictate other people’s poor taste.
Fear of retribution? I don’t imply standing up to the leaders. I am saying to distance ones’ self from actions that you do not believe in or support. If I refuse to enter a certain place of worship, there is nothing to fear (especially as Muslims can legitimately pray ‘beyechidus’), but I have made a silent protest. Enough individuals acting this way would constitute general discontent with the status quo. There is no discontentment, except on CNN.
arc: “It should be built. As jews we should appreciate the freedom of religion and the right to build shuls wherever the zoning allows. to pick and choose whom we allow is a slippery slope.”
Couldn’t agree more. As jews, our primary concern in America is our Freedom of Religion. We cannot have that tampered with, at any cost.
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oomis1105 – “The freedom of religion does not apply to a religion that BANS ALL freedom of religion.”
I’m not sure if you’re aware of this, but our religion also “BANS ALL freedom of religion”. As a matter of fact, if somebody from our religion converts to another, we stone them. And yet we still want the Freedom of Religion to apply to us, don’t we?
“But we are not talking about RIGHTS, but whether or not it is RIGHT to do it.”
OK, if you want to talk about that: No, it’s not very nice of them to build a mosque next to ground zero. However, they have every legal right, and let’s face it, that’s all that matters.
“Did a Christian or Jewish group hijack three planes and murder thousands of people in the space of a few minutes?”
No, but Christians did cruelly murder thousands of jews and muslims in the crusades and the inquisitions. Should we not allow any churches anywhere in Europe?
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AinOhdMilvado: “What is in their hearts is “We attacked you, We killed thousands of you, NOW we will use YOUR own stupid political correctness to commemorate our victory by building a mosque on your graves!!!””
I have no idea what “is in their hearts”. However, it makes no difference: Freedom of Religion is Freedom of Religion, regardless of intent.
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SJS/000646/squeak – Well said.
Squeak, there are plenty of Muslims that attend mosques that are not pro-terrorism. In english and arabic.
To: mw13…
You wrote “I have no idea what “is in their hearts”. However, it makes no difference: Freedom of Religion is Freedom of Religion, regardless of intent.”
If you are a reasonably intelligent Yid, which I will assume you are, you really DO know what is in their hearts, since they have expressed it HUNDREDS of times both here in the U.S. and in Eretz Yisrael. They want to destroy democracy, they want to destroy Israel, they want to destroy Judaism and xianity, they want to impose sharia law on the whole world. For them the hundreds of years between the Crusades and 9/11 was just a “cease-fire” in an on-going war with the “infidels”.
YES, Freedom of religion IS freedom of religion, BUT just as that freedom does NOT mean they can build a mosque in the middle of the Belt Parkway, it does NOT mean they can build it whereEVER they want. Intent DOES matter. If their intent is to study and pray, it does NOT have to DAVKA be done on the site where their co-religionists massacred thousands of innocent Americans and where it will cause anger and grief, AND if their intent is to honor and glorify the terror attack by building a mosque on the site, then CERTAINLY it must NOT be allowed to go forward.
I’m joining the thread just now, but here is my take.
There are two unrelated issues.
A. What are the legal (perhaps constitutional) issues involved.
B. What should be the public response.
I don’t think the public response is related to the legal issues. There are many things which are legal and I speak out against them. I’m not necessarily criticizing the legality, but I am criticizing people who practice it.
An example would be potching your kids. It is legal. I would not support a statute which prohibited it. I criticize parents who do it.
(BP totty: you can use the example of the KKK’s Skokie march. It was legal and most Americans think it should be legal. Yet- of course most Americans would speak out against it.)
Now, my opinion on those two issues.
A. The legality. “I’m on a need to know basis and I don’t need to know.”
B. The public response.
There is no question in my mind that this building is specifically intended as an insult to us, and a monument to the success of the 9/11 attacks.
The entire Moslem world is laughing at us.
I condemn the planners and supporters of this mosque in the strongest terms.
If I were a judge on the case, I would judge it only on the legal merits, but my criticism is not meant to block it legally. It is meant as opinion on the character and intentions of the people involved.
I’m joining the thread now too,
Building there is simply in poor taste. Poor taste is not illegal in this country, as evidenced by the jokes that start to go around when there is an election.
if were talking about legalities then it is also perfectly legal to carry guns
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Concealed_carry_in_the_United_States
yet there are metal detectors in public places and they tell you you can’t have guns here
I understand 1 is sensitivities and 1 is safety but were basically talking if it’s legal or not right?
Many of us have fallen to the political fight in this issue.
1) Why do we call it ground zero?
Its not at ground zero its 2 huge blocks away so that shouldnt be the problem.
2)Also, why is the question to build or not to build when there is already a fully functional mosque there?
My problem with this whole project is this weird imam and his ties with terrorists. He should be investigated with the money and then im sure the project will be canceled.
IMO, backing down now would be like admitting they are partially responsible. Islam is a religion – not every muslim caused the terror attacks. “
SJS:
I have rarely had cause to disagree with your well-written posts, but this is one time I must. Any Muslim who has not vocally and vigorously denounced HAMAS and all terrorist groups, distancing themselves from them as much as they can in avery obvious way, IS responsible for the continuation of terror. The Imam has made very clear in an interview in his own words, that there IS an agenda. It is not one of peace, for anyone who still might be naive enough to be liberal. There is no justification for allowing this mosque to be built bedavka at this location. They can build all the mosques they want (well, really I would not be so happy about that, because that IS their plan), BUT NOT BY GROUND ZERO. It dishonors the memory of those who died there so tragically and painfully. The fact that the Muslims are STILL pushing for this, knowing how so many people feel, proves they are uncaring of the insesitivity they are showing in their zeal to push forward with their owns desires. In my eyes, there is absolutely no mitigating factor in this.
Doesn’t any thinking person find it grossly ironic that the people who force their women to wear burkas, who execute women for being raped, who beheaded a Jewish journalist just because they COULD, who commit every act of barbarism under the sun against people who do not follow THEIR religion, or issue fatwahs (death threats) against authors who even satirize their religion (does the name Salman Rushdie ring a bell?), want to use OUR constitutional right of freedom of religion to push their agenda? In what Bizarro world does a way of life which preaches religious intolerance and death to all infidels, get to use our laws of religious freedom as an excuse to be able to do ANYTHING? The Koran is very specific. Until they change everything in it that talks about killing non-believers and driving Jews into the sea, I have no reason to see their side of things.
oomis1105,
You are wrong when you write, “No one disputes the legal right for someone to build on property that belongs to him”. In fact, a right Christian group known as the American Center for Law and Justice — led by an apostate Jew — has filed lawsuits that seek to force the city government to stop the project despite the fact that it is completely permitted within the current zoning. That is a depicable un-American act and it is similar to what anti-Semites have tried to pull in their attempts to stop shuls and yeshivot from expanding.
noitallmr,
You write, “Its like the Japanese building a huge center next to Pearl Harbor…” In fact, there are numerous Shinto shrines in Hawaii, including one close to Pearl Harbor.
SJS wrote,
“Why did they choose this location? Because they had a lease with an option to buy. Its a great location, great size and perfect for them. And it was an easy purchase.”
In fact they got a good deal because it is a run down area featuring (among other things) gay bars and strip joints. A place where people can worship God (the proposed center will have a prayer room) will be an elevation over the current tumah!
Mod-80 wrote,
“i dont think so….look what they teach their children in school”
Google “gus dur” and you will find a web site devoted to the teachings of a man who died late last year who was the leader of the largest Muslim organization in the world. His name was “Abdurrahman Wahid” and he also served briefly as President of Indonesia. He was a tremendous Muslim scholar and a man of peace and tolerance. No less a figure than Paul Wolfowitz wrote in his praise after his death. Unfortunately, most Americans have never heard of him and he never had access to the oil money that the Wahabis and Iranian mullahs have that enable them to spread their narrowminded intolerant version of Islam. It is probably Mr. Wahid’s liberal and tolerant form of Islam that President Obama saw when he spent his childhood in Djakarta, Indonesia’s capital. (Remember also that Indonesia is the largest Muslim country in the world.)
AinOhdMilvado,
I live in a county that already probably as more Muslims than Jews; I see Muslims frequently on the street and on public transit vehicles. I walk past mosques and halal slaughterhouse. Not once has any Muslim ever treated me with anything other than the greatest of respect. I have spoken with Muslims about our respective fasting rules (they can’t see how we can fast for 25 hours; I can’t see how they can fast for a month at a time). My wife has compared experiences of hair covering and modest dress with Muslim women.
France is far from “overrun” with Muslims — the Muslim population of France is at most 12%. The big problem there is that the Christians hate the Muslims as much as they have hated Jews. France has always demanded a higher standard of assimilation of its immigrants; the American standard in which immigrants are encouraged to keep their culture is far better. (Note that it indeed has worked out much better for Jews in America than in France!)
Furthermore, regarding the location, there exists an existing mosque two blocks from the proposed site that is currently overcrowded, it has been there since 1970. What is different about two blocks?
Baruch wrote,
“I’m up for using whatever it takes to prevent Islam from growing here. “
And if you succeed it will set the precedent for stopping any religious group from building or expanding whenever the populace objects. Forget about ever expanding a shul or yeshiva. The effects on the frum community will be disastrous. And unfortunately we will have earned that punishment because we were on the wrong side of this mosque controversy.
“why is the question to build or not to build when there is already a fully functional mosque there?”
That mosque is overcrowded, with such an inadequate worship space that people have to pray outside on the sidewalk. If the attempts to stop the Park 51 center succeed, forget about ever being able to expand an overcrowded shul when the neighbors object.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/08/17/ground-zero-church-archdiocese-says-officials-forgot/
this project seems too pro-arab if you ask me and it doesn’t matter what we say about the mosque
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